Don't ask, don't tell.

[Pandora]

Sounds like a fear reaction to me, gays you can trust, but lesbians might take advantage of you--or at least want to--and that gives you the jim-jams.

I don’t think I explained myself well. I gave you two examples, real life ones. But both were concerning homosexuals, so let me give you two more examples ok


If a group of cheer leaders said hey Crystal come to our party, we are going to get totally hammered and have a great time. I might go, it would be fun to hang out with the girls and complain about men and get drunk and talk about the stupid things we did in our past.

If the foot ball team said hey Crystal we are having a party come on over, we are going to get hammered and have a great time. I would not go for anything in the world. Not because I don’t like foot ball players but because it would not feel relaxed and comfortable like it would be with the girls... It just seems like a crazy and stupid thing to do.

The point I am trying to make doesn’t really have to do with sex, getting raped or jim jams (what the heck is a jim jam?)

It’s about being comfortable in a way I apparently can not express to you.

I might ask a female at work to look at my butt please and tell me if my panty lines are showing through my pants but I would never ask a guy at work that question. Though I probably would feel pretty comfortable asking a homosexual male that question, I would not be comfortable asking a female homosexual that question.

I don’t think that means I have homophobia or what ever word it is. Shouldn’t I think of homosexual woman as more like men (mentally) and homosexual men more like women (mentally)

Again it’s not about feeling like Ill be raped, it’s about feeling comfortable like you would when you’re with your girlfriends and you talk about different things than you would if you were with your male friends.

So again it leaves a problem in the shower and getting dressed situation if you’re living in a group setting like the military.


To say just learn to shower together and get over it seems like the people who are complaining they are not tolerated are not being very tolerant to another groups needs.

If you polled 500 men and asked would you care if you showered with the women.......490 of them would probably say no.

If you polled 500 women and asked would you care if you showered with the men.....498 would say yes.

Men and women are different and that should be acceptable. All I would like is for people to be tolerant to prudish women who might not feel comfortable. And men too if there are any.

 

[Pandora]

I have no problem with gays openly in the military.

now they just need to figure out what to do about the showers and stuff.

Should all the soldiers, male, female, gay, TS, and straight, shower together? then we just tell them all to stop being so concerned about it and that they should get over their fear reactions to being ogled by people who find them sexually attractive.

Or we have four different sleeping/showering arrangements.

What would you do Mare?

my only problem about it is the shower dressing part

If they refuse to let prudes shower seperate then they should let them out of the military with honorable discharge and no questions asked.

 

[Mr.Dysfunctional]

Now that we have a new President, one who is not inclined to discriminate against gay people, what's it look like for an end to the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy that has prevailed in the US military?

Personally, and I know this will come as a shock to all of you, I think that gay people should be allowed to serve openly in the military. We know they're serving now--why the secrecy? It doesn't make them better soldiers to have to hide who they are for fear of being discharged. And recognizing publicly that gay people are serving their country faithfully in the military will be another sign of recognition that gay people are just people, that it's time to end their 2nd class citizenship and let them be equals.

We went through a process very much like this when black people began serving with white people in the military--it was stupid then and it's stupid now.

Nothing in this world would make me turn my opinion on gay marriage faster then to see an overtly flaming gay man in full kevlar, helmet , AR-15 WITH grenades go ape **** after getting shot at. Just something that would make me smile by hearing them go " Ohhh no you didn't *****!!! " and start lobbing grenades and laying down cover fire.

the number one thing that earns you the right to your freedoms has to be Military service. I personally see few points that were worthy of the rules (( don't ask don't tell )) when I was in the service... but the fact is that homosexual pop culture has become mainstream and all our children will be brought up with it from here on out wether we like it or not.. meaning the more generations go by,.. the less homophobic the general public will be.

I completely agree with you Mare... I believe Gays should become open and show that they can be counted on regardless of what America may call upon them to do.
This is not the 70's and they are not the children of congressmen,..
Let them Serve openly..

Just no overhauling the uniform to better suit homosexual fashion LoL

 

[Mr.Dysfunctional]

Also to comment on the shower thing...

I can promise you ... the first few weeks of boot-camp will remove all sexual tension from ANYONE period... the stress endured can cure the most devout smoker .. so I see no problem with it completely distracting gay men from staring at someone's ass.

Not to mention you handle those situations completely different after boot-camp.

 

[Pandora]

Also to comment on the shower thing...

I can promise you ... the first few weeks of boot-camp will remove all sexual tension from ANYONE period... the stress endured can cure the most devout smoker .. so I see no problem with it completely distracting gay men from staring at someone's ass.

Not to mention you handle those situations completely different after boot-camp.

gosh everyone thinks Im talking about sex and grabbing and drooling

its not about that

most people wear clothes because they are some what modest, there are a small few who wear them because they have to


women generally go to women only gyms, women generally would not shower in front of a man. not because he is going to grab her or rape her or look at her butt

its just not comfortable

women also pick other women for their doctors, not because they think a male doctor is going to grab her butt either

men understand nothing about women, sheesh!

 

[The Scotsman]

Just no overhauling the uniform to better suit homosexual fashion LoL

.............

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I have no problem with gays openly in the military.

now they just need to figure out what to do about the showers and stuff.

Should all the soldiers, male, female, gay, TS, and straight, shower together? then we just tell them all to stop being so concerned about it and that they should get over their fear reactions to being ogled by people who find them sexually attractive.

Or we have four different sleeping/showering arrangements.

What would you do Mare?

Allow all people to shower with the gender in which they present. End of problem. If we spend our resources worrying about whether our shower-mates MIGHT be oogling us, then we won't have time to focus on getting clean. Talk about a non-issue, all the men and all the women are showering together NOW segregated by the gender in which they present--why change it? We know that there are gays and lesbians in the showers with us now, most people probably have a good idea who is who and as long as everyone behaves there is no problem. As Dawks said, this is a lot like blacks in the whites-only restaurants.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

What I don't get is this.

There are already gays showering with straights in the military.

It doesn't seem to be a problem now and so I don't see why it would be if the gay people were openly gay.

Is it that people think if they were openly gay they would be walking round the showers sporting erections and whistles touching up the poor defenceless straight guys?

 

[Dr.Who]

Allow all people to shower with the gender in which they present. End of problem. If we spend our resources worrying about whether our shower-mates MIGHT be oogling us, then we won't have time to focus on getting clean. Talk about a non-issue, all the men and all the women are showering together NOW segregated by the gender in which they present--why change it? We know that there are gays and lesbians in the showers with us now, most people probably have a good idea who is who and as long as everyone behaves there is no problem. As Dawks said, this is a lot like blacks in the whites-only restaurants.

I didn't intend to talk about this when I asked the question but...

So it seems that the physical genitalia make more difference to you than the attitudes and desires one has?

If we are going to make rules about who people shower with based on physical gender then why shouldn't we make rules about who one marries based on physical gender?

If you present as a man then you can marry a person who presents as a woman and vise versa. if it is good enough for the shower rules then it is good enough for the marriage rules?

If we can overlook individual feelings and the way that many people would feel uncomfortable about showering with people who find them sexually attractive for the needs of the bigger picture then we can overlook the individual feelings and the way many people would feel when they are denied the responsibilities to society that people must pay and the priveleges they earn when they get married. ?

 

[Dr.Who]

What I don't get is this.

There are already gays showering with straights in the military.

It doesn't seem to be a problem now and so I don't see why it would be if the gay people were openly gay.

Is it that people think if they were openly gay they would be walking round the showers sporting erections and whistles touching up the poor defenceless straight guys?

No that's not it.

When you go out to eat in a restaurant you know that there are going to be unsanitary conditions back in the kitchen. There is an almost 100% chance that one of the people touching your food did not wash their hands after they went to the bathroom. Ever wonder why fecally contaminated food is just soo common? The difference is that while we all pretend that the kitchen is clean and hope the health dept did a good job it is completely different when we actually see the chef tossing your pizza dough and actually saw him not wash his hands after he went to the bathroom. Anyone remember that Seinfeld episode?

Personally I have known many gay people and been hit on by them and it doesn't bother me at all. I just decline. i would have no problem being in a public shower with someone that I knew or did not know was gay. But I respect that most people do not want to be in public showers with anyone of any gender that they know finds them sexually attractive.

This is a pretty strong part of our culture. We have invented separate bathroom and separate showers and separate locker rooms and separate gyms and all sorts of stuff to acomodate the majority of people who want these things to be separate. You can't just go and change something that is such a large part of our culture so quickly.

 

[poptart]

The military is controlled by a bunch of old men that were brought up to be homophobs.
And until they are cycled out of the military, and a younger, more tolerant, generation takes over, then there will be problems with gays in the military.
Also, congress must change the UCMJ, the military laws, that make gay sex illegal.

 

[Pandora]

The military is controlled by a bunch of old men that were brought up to be homophobs.
And until they are cycled out of the military, and a younger, more tolerant, generation takes over, then there will be problems with gays in the military.
Also, congress must change the UCMJ, the military laws, that make gay sex illegal.

I dont think you are seeing it from any side but the side you want to see it from.

I have zero problem with homosexuals in the military, I am very tolerent of that idea, but why is it so hard to be tolerent of my modesty and understand that some, not all would need special arangements for showers and dressing. other than that its all fine.

I would not want to dress in front of a man either.... the tolerent liberal group are never tolerent of anyone they dont agree with, its getting old!

 

[Pandora]

No that's not it.

When you go out to eat in a restaurant you know that there are going to be unsanitary conditions back in the kitchen. There is an almost 100% chance that one of the people touching your food did not wash their hands after they went to the bathroom. Ever wonder why fecally contaminated food is just soo common? The difference is that while we all pretend that the kitchen is clean and hope the health dept did a good job it is completely different when we actually see the chef tossing your pizza dough and actually saw him not wash his hands after he went to the bathroom. Anyone remember that Seinfeld episode?

Personally I have known many gay people and been hit on by them and it doesn't bother me at all. I just decline. i would have no problem being in a public shower with someone that I knew or did not know was gay. But I respect that most people do not want to be in public showers with anyone of any gender that they know finds them sexually attractive.

This is a pretty strong part of our culture. We have invented separate bathroom and separate showers and separate locker rooms and separate gyms and all sorts of stuff to acomodate the majority of people who want these things to be separate. You can't just go and change something that is such a large part of our culture so quickly.

ahh someone got it I am glad you understand what I am talking about.

But I dont think anyone else will understand or care to even try. I am glad you did, thanks!

 

[samsara15]

I don't even like to pee in public bathrooms, unless I have a wlled off stall. When I go to sports events, I think I'm going to wet my pants.

However, we have men and women in the military, and they manage to shower without oogling or raping each other, so we can find some accomodation for gay people, if we are truly so inclined.

 

[Pandora]

I don't even like to pee in public bathrooms, unless I have a wlled off stall. When I go to sports events, I think I'm going to wet my pants.

However, we have men and women in the military, and they manage to shower without oogling or raping each other, so we can find some accomodation for gay people, if we are truly so inclined.

That is a great example with the going to the bathroom and I am sure you feel this way even if you knew the others in the public room with you were straight, its not about oogling or raping, I really dont understand why people keep thinking that. its just about feeling comfortable. I wouldnt want to pee in front of another person either and more especially a man or a homosexual woman, to me a homosexual woman is basicly a guy but a few differences, and a homosexual man is like a girl. I would actually feel around a homosexual man probably as comfortable as I would a female who was not homosexual.

and I dont think we need accomodations for homosexual people, I think we need accomodations for someone like me who is the prude with the problem.

men are strange, they whip it out and pee side by side in urinals, I have always thought that was very very strange. most men would not have issue with it at all but if one guy did, some place for him to go dress and shower should be given.

Far more women would feel uncomfortable, and some place should be made for those women to be able to shower and dress.


It would be horrible and wrong of me to think that the homosexual has to be put someplace different for dressing and showering, and most people probably would not have a problem with it, but for those few prudes out there, they should have someplace where they can shower and dress and feel comfortable.

again,

IT IS NOT ABOUT OOGLING OR RAPING, ITS ABOUT BEING COMFORTABLE