Do Animals Have Rights?

I guess that it is dependent on where you live. In my area I do seem to have pretty decent options It may take me a bit longer to read the labels on everything but is not a major inconvenience. Also a lot of restraunts do have at least something to eat and then their are even some vegetarian restraunts (though those are out by Boston mostly).

I guess I don't know the type of enviorment you are in but I guess we all just have to do the best we can.

peace

-Todd


That said, we're talking about a balance here- it will be easier for some than for others due to access to resources. I am in an environment where unless one spends a lot of time and a fair bit of money, neither of which I have, it is difficult to be vegetarian and remain healthy (I could manage if I copped an iron deficiency, or somesuch, but then I wouldn't be able to cope with living).
 
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As I look into the eyes of my three dogs i'm going to have to say that they have rights. I love them, absolutely love them.
 
As I look into the eyes of my three dogs i'm going to have to say that they have rights. I love them, absolutely love them.

Well, just to be funny, I think we'll have to refer to what I assert above:

Humans being animals, I don't believe that humans really have rights either. We simply have imposed upon ourselves the impression of the responsibility to fair treatment.

What you've done is chosen to respect them and have a relationship on a level deeper than some people would presume possible. And seeing that makes me glad, because I really don't think this is an improper thing to do.
 
I don't believe that animals really have rights, but I do believe that we have the responsibility to treat them properly

Bingo. It doesn't make sense to me to hurt an animal - or a forest or a lake, for that matter - just because we can. We have the ability to take care in our dealings with nature. It serves both us and nature best in the long run if we're careful and responsible.
 
Well the real question here is, what benefits occur to society from "meat abstinence". And that's really what we're talking about, abstinence, and not some kind of societal impact that is relevant in any real way. For instance, if you stop having sex, does this impact anyone in the world other than those who wanted to have sex with you? Not really, someone will find someone else to have sex with, just as the meat will find someone else on the market to eat it. The only real difference a meat abstainer, which is the real wording for an ethical vegetarian, can make is commerical. Less people eating meat impacts the economy in some small way, but with population growth or foreign markets, this is all negligable anyway. So meat abstinence should be a personal choice, but never assumed a moral one that is helping a greater good.

Furthermore, if one IS a promoter of the vegetarian lifestyle through ethical abstinence, what of collateral damages that come with the existence of mankind? Living, breathing, interacting within a society is by the very nature of existence, displacing the natural environment and habitats of creatures that would otherwise live there. But have you not, as a creature as well, have a right to occupy that space? Let us tackle a less abstract direction, and speak to the production of alternative foods, that of farm-produced corn, lettuce, soybeans, all those things vegetarians love to eat. The petrochemical industry is inherent in this type of food production, whether it be through farm machinery, pesticides, or whatnot. Organic you say? One hand must still wash the other, you need animal fertilizer to grow crops, thus one must procure the excrement from cattle or various animals being slaughtered for market to produce the crops.

This is why ethanol at the moment is not a viable fuel alternative, as it takes so many petroleum products to produce the altenative fuel source that it makes the alternative a rather negligable reduction in emissions. To understand ethical vegetarianism, one must really understand where all of your food sources come from, a near impossibility, and even then if you do know where your food comes from, how can one possibly claim to lead an ethical lifestyle, or put more to the point, a more ethical lifestyle than those whom the vegetarian obviously disapproves of? It is a difficult and slippery slope to traverse, as claiming a clear ethical advantage over other people is something for pure subjectivity. Who is to say that the products bought by an ethical vegetarian do not in some way create more harm to animals than merely eating them on your dinner plate? Who is to say that animals are not routinely killed, as we know they are, in crops harvest, cultivation, and preservation during growth?
 
I would remind you that you are talking specifically about the field of ethical vegetarianism (meat abstinence) which is at best a loosely related subset to animal rights, in that the cornerstone may be a principal consideration of the other. I refer to the consideration of other species as moral agents.

Also, given that you make a distinction between a choice supported by a personal morality, and a purportedly nomological one, your objection to "moral vegetarians" and "moral vegans" etc. would specifically be directed at those who purport to make their decision because they find it morally unsupportable to eat meat- which has ramifications of judgment upon those who do not agree with their views. I think that kind of objection to morality falls under a more general concern of subjectivity, but nonetheless I would endorse your broadening of the issues considered.

While we're presuming that this abstinence stems from consideration of other animals as moral agents, now that you have introduced other factors such as environmental, economic and social into the mix, how would you stack these up against the other baser values already in play i.e. life? I am aware that you point out (as I might have earlier) that life entails a necessary tension, but your first sentence has me raising the question as to what emphasis of values you might espouse.
 
Well the real question here is, what benefits occur to society from "meat abstinence". And that's really what we're talking about, abstinence, and not some kind of societal impact that is relevant in any real way. For instance, if you stop having sex, does this impact anyone in the world other than those who wanted to have sex with you? Not really, someone will find someone else to have sex with, just as the meat will find someone else on the market to eat it. The only real difference a meat abstainer, which is the real wording for an ethical vegetarian, can make is commerical. Less people eating meat impacts the economy in some small way, but with population growth or foreign markets, this is all negligable anyway. So meat abstinence should be a personal choice, but never assumed a moral one that is helping a greater good.

Assuming that sex is concentual having sex or not is not causing harm to other living beings. Eating meat is casuing harm. By this logic not murdering or raping someone is not a moral choice because other people are going to commit murder or rape anyways.

Furthermore, if one IS a promoter of the vegetarian lifestyle through ethical abstinence, what of collateral damages that come with the existence of mankind? Living, breathing, interacting within a society is by the very nature of existence, displacing the natural environment and habitats of creatures that would otherwise live there. But have you not, as a creature as well, have a right to occupy that space? Let us tackle a less abstract direction, and speak to the production of alternative foods, that of farm-produced corn, lettuce, soybeans, all those things vegetarians love to eat. The petrochemical industry is inherent in this type of food production, whether it be through farm machinery, pesticides, or whatnot. Organic you say? One hand must still wash the other, you need animal fertilizer to grow crops, thus one must procure the excrement from cattle or various animals being slaughtered for market to produce the crops.

Funny enough most of the corn, soybeans extc used in the US go for animal feed and not for human feed. And animal wastes are a major cause of water pollution in many places. The fact is the idellic farms one believes in for the most part have been replaced by factory farms where animals are held in tiny cramped corners their entire lives. As for growing food I happen to know vegans who manage to grow organically.

This is why ethanol at the moment is not a viable fuel alternative, as it takes so many petroleum products to produce the altenative fuel source that it makes the alternative a rather negligable reduction in emissions. To understand ethical vegetarianism, one must really understand where all of your food sources come from, a near impossibility, and even then if you do know where your food comes from, how can one possibly claim to lead an ethical lifestyle, or put more to the point, a more ethical lifestyle than those whom the vegetarian obviously disapproves of? It is a difficult and slippery slope to traverse, as claiming a clear ethical advantage over other people is something for pure subjectivity. Who is to say that the products bought by an ethical vegetarian do not in some way create more harm to animals than merely eating them on your dinner plate? Who is to say that animals are not routinely killed, as we know they are, in crops harvest, cultivation, and preservation during growth?

And i have never said being completly harmless was possible. One can certainly reduce it. And I do not believe that meat is the only thing one should worry about. But to avoid direct harm to other living beings (while using fewer resources) is a pretty clear choice (at least to me)
 
Animals are a food source so if you can commit the equivalent of the ultimate violation of human rights, they have no rights; nevertheless, I don't believe in purposeless cruelty. It's a tricky subject.
 
Well I guess I disagree with you. they do have feelings, emotions and consiousness. Thus they should have rights rights and we do have a moral obligation to them. Plus we have other sources of food.

In any case i don't think one could justify horrific treatment such as keeping animals in confinement without even being able to move as is common (especially on pig, chicken and egg farms).


Animals are a food source so if you can commit the equivalent of the ultimate violation of human rights, they have no rights; nevertheless, I don't believe in purposeless cruelty. It's a tricky subject.
 
I'm not sure this thread is proceeding in a direction that is specifically relevant to the original post. I say this because I do not want to see implied ad hominem. Also, I believe your question was answered earlier in the thread.
 
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