Desperate Dems hide behind talking points in response to Health Care protests

[Pandora]

The Government has never gotten anything right. I see. Of course that is pure rhetoric. The private sector insurers have gotten it right, but only in one matter, that's ensuring that their shareholders and corporate officers are well paid. Of course no one mentions that this is at the cost of lives. I think you should introduce yourself to three words that really should incite fear, medical cost ratio. MCR = Costs/Premiums. Cigna's MCR is currently 82.1%. This is actually quite scary when you realize the amount of money involved here. "Good" MCR is achieved by ensuring that you don't spend as much as you ought to on medical care for your customers. When I pay a premium I don't pay it so only 80% of it is used in my and others care, I mean they have the money to cover a lot more than they do and they choose not to and yet premiums continue to rise while their MCR continues to drop, that points to the obvious, they're taking in more money, but not paying more out. Take a peek at this, it'll show you how messed up it really is, http://www.theverdengroup.com/uploaded/Verden Report_SE_Cost vs Profit in Managed Care Today.pdf ... And here you can enjoy watching the profits grow at cigna while so many are still uninsured or undercared for by their provider. "Cigna reported a second-quarter profit of $435 million, or $1.58 a share, compared with $272 million, or 96 cents a share, a year earlier. " http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090730-719032.html .. And I did mention rising premiums. As the premiums go up, people cannot afford insurance, medical costs go up as well as the economy took a nose dive, http://oecdobserver.org/news/fullst...re_Gap_-_OECD_Observer_No_273_June_2009_.html This is a nice short on the current healthcare gap in america versus other countries, if that doesn't bother at least just a minute bit while you're espousing the wonderful free market provider care market, then I don't know what to say, you simply don't really care about Americans in general, because all those "mom and pops" and "average American's" you keep cheering on at thoe town hall meetings, they're not the ones lying in a hospital bed living their last few weeks because their insurer decided chemo was too expensive to keep paying for. Those are the American's it'd be nice to hear from, but the insurers won on two fronts, 1 they can continue to reduce their MCR by denying treatment and 2 they can keep their naysayers who NOW know how it really is quiet, since they're just gonna die anyhow.

At the end of it all every dime that passes out as profit is blood money. They go out of their way to stop payment, disqualify treatments that are known to work, cancel policies for nonsense reasons, all for money. People die because of this, this is the insurer's free market. A free for all of what approaches to me negligent manslaughter for profit.

I am not saying that our health care is perfect. I think we need some sort of reform. I just dont think letting the government control it is the answer.

Can you name for me one government run program that has ever worked well.

 

[r0beph]

I am not saying that our health care is perfect. I think we need some sort of reform. I just dont think letting the government control it is the answer.

Can you name for me one government run program that has ever worked well.

Okay. Let's see. The USMC, the USArmy, the US Navy, the US Coast Guard, the US Lunar program, the Hubble Telescope program, NASA in general (if they'd stop cutting funding), the eradication of Polio, Project HOPE (and the SS HOPE), the interstate highway system, and plenty more. You're still avoiding the questions I asked.

 

[Pandora]

Okay. Let's see. The USMC, the USArmy, the US Navy, the US Coast Guard, the US Lunar program, the Hubble Telescope program, NASA in general (if they'd stop cutting funding), the eradication of Polio, Project HOPE (and the SS HOPE), the interstate highway system, and plenty more. You're still avoiding the questions I asked.

The service is great, but I dont think its run well. It cost an ungodly amount and where I personally support the military many think its a total waste.


I am sorry, what was the question?

 

[Andy]

I spoke at one of our local meetings. I'm a diabetic. My insurance tricked me into dropping my individual plan. They told me that IF I dropped my individual and went with my employer offered plan that I could reinstate my individual plan even though I have a preexisting condition. Cool beans, right? Wrong. After my job was over I called up BC/BS to have them swithc me back from employer provided to my (350$/mo for over 3 years, 2 of which it didn't cover my preexisting) individual plan. They said I'd have to wait 2 years again (@350$ a month... so I'd be paying $8500 for no coverage, since the only reason I ever go to the doc or hospital is due to my diabetes). I complained about them telling me they'd do it, so they had someone there replay the tape, they also sent me a transcript.

Me: If I cancel my current individual plan and use my employer offered plan, does my preexisting condition status transfer so I'd receive full coverage?

BCBS: Yes, sir.

Me: So what happens if I lose my employer insurance, can I get my individual plan back even though I have a preexisting condition?

BCBS: Of course, just call us and we'll set it up for you.

Me: Allright, sounds good, let me cancel that individual plan.

-----

So what did they say about this? Well notice the language we used in the last few lines. They say I didn't explicitly ask if the reinstated individual plan would COVER my preexisting, only if they'd ALLOW me to have insurance through them. This of course is not what I meant (obvious by my first question's context). So now, I cannot afford the individual plan AND pay full price for my doctors, I cost 450$ a month in meds and testing equipment and about once every month or 2 I end up in the hospital because I pass out (happens while I sleep, because I can't 'feel' my sugar dropping, like I can when awake, not much I can do about it.)


Last week I had a seizure, I went to the hospital in an ambulance, had several tests run (CT, 12pt EKG) because I was comatose for a short while. I now owe over $10,000, put this on top of 2 months ago transport, D50, and 2 hour observation, I owe the hospital over $18,000. I had insurance, but they screwed me. I want reform, I want it now, if you don't like it, I apologize. Some of us are screwed due to things beyond our control and the greed of corporate insurance conglomerates. My life DOES depend on this. I won't die without it, but I cannot live, I'll be bankrupt and financially screwed for the remainder of my life.

Question, do you think that government can provide $450 dollars worth of care without paying $450 dollars? Of course not. It does not cost them less than it costs you.

So where is that $450 dollars going to come from? You. You are going to pay in taxes, what it costs you for care, plus some. Why plus some? Two reasons.

When companies bargain for payment rates, since they are not arguing with a customer, but with government, they are going to bargain for the highest possible payment. Just look at military contracts. Further, they are going to lobby congress as hard as possible for the highest possible rate. Again, look at military contracts.

Second, by taxing everyone, running it through the IRS, and then through whatever agency is set to run health care, and then through hospitals and other systems, each level has to take a cut. And Government is notoriously inefficient here.

So it's still going to cost you the same amount and then some.

You seem to think the job of insurance is to reduce the cost of health care to you. That is not true. Some also seem to think they'll pay less if government runs the system. That is not true either.

I'm sorry you got duped into canceling your insurance. That is too bad. However, sometimes we don't like the current system so much, we blind ourselves into thinking another system is automatically better. Not a good plan.

For a moment let me explain the difference between here in Canada, that would relate to how much you spend for diabetic condition. In Canada, you would pay 12% sales tax on everything you buy, then pay a additional taxes on specific goods like home heating oil, and auto petrol taxes (Canadians are paying $3.75 for gas right now, most of which is taxes), plus you would pay your 15-29% income tax, your social insurance tax, your employment insurance tax, your worker compensation tax, your federal property tax, your 50% capital gains tax, and finally, finally... your health insurance tax. Which doesn't include your health insurance premiums.

Yes, you must pay a tax, and a premium, both of which don't cover the cost, so you also are paying income taxes for it. This is why Canada's "Tax Freedom Day" the day on which you officially are working to earn your own money, instead of just working to pay taxes, is June 14th. Whereas in the US it's April 13th.

Did you know that Canada's standard of living is lower there, than it is here? You don't think it could be for all those taxes they have to pay that we do not? The lowest income tax bracket still pays roughly 35% of their income in taxes.

So back to health care. You want health care reform because you had the health insurance company screwed over charging you $350 in premiums for $450 in services every month. Logically they wanted you off their plan because it was bad for for their business. So they of course did whatever they could to get you off their plan.

You bought the idea you could pay a lower premium from your employer, and canceled your existing policy. Which is what they wanted. Of course the way it works for the employer is, you cost much more than your paying, so that drives up premium costs for everyone else in your pool. Good for you, bad for everyone else. Then they all complain about health care costs going up when they are not sick, and want government to reform health care too.

So everyone is trying to get health care without paying the cost. But it doesn't work that way. Either the cost gets paid, from taxes, or premiums, or from direct purchase, or the quality of care suffers. Doctors do not work for free, and Canada is finding this out. Why do you think Doctors are refusing medicare patients? Because everyone thought everyone else was going to pay their bills, but instead no one paid the bills and the doctors are refusing to work. Shocking how that works.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Never mind that these Democrats can present no evidence of actual people telling otherwise-indifferent people, to go to their townhall meetings and start shouting. No evidence that the people protesting are a "fringe" at all, instead of regular citizens taking time off their jobs to try to stop an out-of-control socialist government. And, as usual, no attempt by these Democrats to actually back up their bizarre claims of sinister conspiracies and behind-the-scenes manipulations.

You mean....besides The Facts....right?

​

 

[Pandora]

Question, do you think that government can provide $450 dollars worth of care without paying $450 dollars? Of course not. It does not cost them less than it costs you.

So where is that $450 dollars going to come from? You. You are going to pay in taxes, what it costs you for care, plus some. Why plus some? Two reasons.

When companies bargain for payment rates, since they are not arguing with a customer, but with government, they are going to bargain for the highest possible payment. Just look at military contracts. Further, they are going to lobby congress as hard as possible for the highest possible rate. Again, look at military contracts.

Second, by taxing everyone, running it through the IRS, and then through whatever agency is set to run health care, and then through hospitals and other systems, each level has to take a cut. And Government is notoriously inefficient here.

So it's still going to cost you the same amount and then some.

You seem to think the job of insurance is to reduce the cost of health care to you. That is not true. Some also seem to think they'll pay less if government runs the system. That is not true either.

I'm sorry you got duped into canceling your insurance. That is too bad. However, sometimes we don't like the current system so much, we blind ourselves into thinking another system is automatically better. Not a good plan.

For a moment let me explain the difference between here in Canada, that would relate to how much you spend for diabetic condition. In Canada, you would pay 12% sales tax on everything you buy, then pay a additional taxes on specific goods like home heating oil, and auto petrol taxes (Canadians are paying $3.75 for gas right now, most of which is taxes), plus you would pay your 15-29% income tax, your social insurance tax, your employment insurance tax, your worker compensation tax, your federal property tax, your 50% capital gains tax, and finally, finally... your health insurance tax. Which doesn't include your health insurance premiums.

Yes, you must pay a tax, and a premium, both of which don't cover the cost, so you also are paying income taxes for it. This is why Canada's "Tax Freedom Day" the day on which you officially are working to earn your own money, instead of just working to pay taxes, is June 14th. Whereas in the US it's April 13th.

Did you know that Canada's standard of living is lower there, than it is here? You don't think it could be for all those taxes they have to pay that we do not? The lowest income tax bracket still pays roughly 35% of their income in taxes.

So back to health care. You want health care reform because you had the health insurance company screwed over charging you $350 in premiums for $450 in services every month. Logically they wanted you off their plan because it was bad for for their business. So they of course did whatever they could to get you off their plan.

You bought the idea you could pay a lower premium from your employer, and canceled your existing policy. Which is what they wanted. Of course the way it works for the employer is, you cost much more than your paying, so that drives up premium costs for everyone else in your pool. Good for you, bad for everyone else. Then they all complain about health care costs going up when they are not sick, and want government to reform health care too.

So everyone is trying to get health care without paying the cost. But it doesn't work that way. Either the cost gets paid, from taxes, or premiums, or from direct purchase, or the quality of care suffers. Doctors do not work for free, and Canada is finding this out. Why do you think Doctors are refusing medicare patients? Because everyone thought everyone else was going to pay their bills, but instead no one paid the bills and the doctors are refusing to work. Shocking how that works.

Great points there Andy

I knew taxes were way higher in Canada but I did not know about the health insurance tax. That is a new tax I did not know about.

 

[top gun]

Question, do you think that government can provide $450 dollars worth of care without paying $450 dollars? Of course not. It does not cost them less than it costs you.

So where is that $450 dollars going to come from?

We all know where a nice portion of it can come from...

and what you're offering is a Red Herring argument anyway. There is no Canadian plan at all being purposed. Private insurance well be fully in effect and it's predicted that over 90% of Americans will be privately insured even after Health Insurance Reform.

It's a hybrid plan that doctors, nurses the AARP all agree is much better than what we have now.

 

[bododie]

let's see them come up with some better ideas.

A start: Kick everybody out of the country who is here illegally, and soaking our systems left and right, courtesy of Dems who have a bleeding heart for everyone but Americans.

 

[top gun]

A start: Kick everybody out of the country who is here illegally, and soaking our systems left and right, courtesy of Dems who have a bleeding heart for everyone but Americans.

I hate to soak up all your venom by stating the obvious but Ronald Reagan (a Republican) implimented the last amnesty program for illegal aliens... and several other things that you now spend all of your time blaming only Democrats for.

Everyone should watch this for the facts...

What we should be doing is working together on the one thing that doesn't cost a fortune, doesn't break up families and still gives businesses the migrant workers that they need.

MAKE IT VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR ILLEGALS TO BE EMPLOYED.

That simply is a mandatory workers visa on the same security level as our new passports and a serious fine to any business hiring illegals who don't posses that documentation... something like a first offense $10,000 per person per incident fine and up from there. Make that same valid workers visa a requirement for parents to put their kids in school or receive any type of benefit.

Secondly make our temporary workers visa a process in line with the best interests of our country. In other words easy enough to get to fulfill our needs but with a fairly short term expiration date regulated with a mandatory in person review for renewal or denial every year or maybe two.

Makes a whole lot more sense than some fence. Fences aren't the answer. They cost a fortune and there's too much ground to cover.

I know this first hand because I have In-Laws with a winter home in McAllen, Texas. We go there all the time, and the Rio Grand river that divides McAllen, Texas from Progresso, Mexico in many places is only about 50 yards across. And it's that way all up and down the river. So anyone who can swim 50 yards or has a little blow up pool raft can easily come over anyway.

Plus we'd still have the entire northern border to fence off. Fences this large are a feel good thing because you can look at them. But they're impractical, inefficient and costly to maintain. To many other ways in and as the old saying goes... You build a 20 foot fence... I'll build an 21 foot ladder.

So let's clean up our own business problem on this end and set the stage that way.

The answer is in not being able to work if you don't enter properly.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

A start: Kick everybody out of the country who is here illegally, and soaking our systems left and right, courtesy of Dems who have a bleeding heart for everyone but Americans.

Watch it buster...you may rekindle the native revolution and they'll be telling us to 'GO HOME'...according to our own righteous history we are all ILLEGALS {unless you are of Native American decent} then I guess you could tell us to "pack it up and ship it out".

 

[top gun]

Watch it buster...you may rekindle the native revolution and they'll be telling us to 'GO HOME'...according to our own righteous history we are all ILLEGALS {unless you are of Native American decent} then I guess you could tell us to "pack it up and ship it out".

Never though about that.

My family came over from Germany.

I'm know kinda hoping the Cheyenne, Cherokee, and Navajo types don't read that post and decide I gotta go!

 

[TruthAboveAll]

I agree with you about fixing, I just disagree with this desire to remake it
as a government thing when government gets it wrong every time.

Pan, I read this, along with several of the subsequent responses. I certainly feel for r0beph and others who have chronic health conditions and face the incredibly convoluted system as it stands now. I don't think any with half a brain doesn't recognize there are valid arguments in favor of doing something. The question remains to be exactly WHAT.

Proponents of HCR say doing something is better than nothing. Opponents saying doing anything could be worse than doing nothing: where the government is concerned, their track record proves that out.

Again and again, I keep hearing the same things - that there is lack of affordable insurance coverage, that pre-existing conditions are too often exclusionary, that there is lack of portability in existing coverage, that there is lack of choice in scope of coverage, etc. That is, now that the main focus has officially switched from Health Care Reform to Health INSURANCE reform.

So the main problems are NOT within the health care system, per new emphasis from PBO and the Washington cadre. If that is the case, why doesn't PBO and Congress simply focus on the several most critical issues, identify and define them, and review what can be done to fix it? WITHOUT a massive overhaul and nationalization that may be the living epitome of the cure being worse than the cause?

For example, the government claims a primary goal of their involvement is to increase competition. In what ways can the government increase competition in the private sector insurance industry to meet that goal, without become a competitive player? By lowering barriers for interstate competition for business.

Another: In what way can the government increase portability and provide more choice in health insurance, again without becoming a part of the structure? By increasing availability of group plans outside of individual employers or workers groups, allowing small business insurance consortiums, even individuals to buy into group plans through their banks or credit unions, as they can now for auto, mortgage and life insurance. By increasing MSA's, and eliminating penalties for annual roll-overs.

An immediate thing they could do? Allow a straight up tax reduction for your medical expenses. Period. No minimum to meet, just a straight, across the board deduction for every dollar you spend.

I know these are simplistic. But why do we accept the garbage that a viable solution can not be simplistic? Why do we accept that it can only be achieved through nothing less than a high-stakes gamble that the government can not only help, but can solve through bureaucracy the most personally meaningful part of Americans' lives?

 

[Pandora]

An immediate thing they could do? Allow a straight up tax reduction for your medical expenses. Period. No minimum to meet, just a straight, across the board deduction for every dollar you spend.

I know these are simplistic. But why do we accept the garbage that a viable solution can not be simplistic? Why do we accept that it can only be achieved through nothing less than a high-stakes gamble that the government can not only help, but can solve through bureaucracy the most personally meaningful part of Americans' lives?

I think that is a great idea, I also like someones idea that if doctors could see people "free to the person" and write the expense off as a tax deduction. Doctors would be happy to see people and not have to pay extra taxes, people would be happy to be seen.

both of those ideas would work great.

 

[r0beph]

Great points there Andy

I knew taxes were way higher in Canada but I did not know about the health insurance tax. That is a new tax I did not know about.

Also in Canada, they have a much better medical system than the US, you may not have known that too. I hope you find this a great point as well :-D.

Let me also add some other government run programs that have done well in the US. The NIST (Of course if you're often late to work, you may not think this works well, you can thank them for standardizing time across the nation, not to mention every weight and measurement we're used to.) NOAA, I'm glad for these guys, they play a key role in satellite development and placement that keeps an eye on the weather here in my tornado prone town, state, nation.

I also enjoy my steak quite rare. I'm glad the FDA has been around to ensure that my food is safe to eat. Also being diabetic, lucky for me they're around to ensure that the insulin I use as medical treatment is safe for human use, unlike some countries (china for example) where you will often find adulterated drugs.

One other thing I'm sure both you will agree on with me, I love the internet, perhaps you didn't know that a government program run by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration led to the implementation of the internet. Also you and I can both thank ICANN for making life much easier for us web users. Houseofpolitics.com is so much easier to type than http://208.43.115.222 , more memorable, easier to tell your friends about, of course, the government runs that too.

But what does any of this have to do with anything, we have to protect America from taxation, even if that taxation leads to the betterment of every person in our land. I mean seriously, it won't lead to the betterment, it leads to godless socialism, right?

Pan, I read this, along with several of the subsequent responses. I certainly feel for r0beph and others who have chronic health conditions and face the incredibly convoluted system as it stands now. I don't think any with half a brain doesn't recognize there are valid arguments in favor of doing something. The question remains to be exactly WHAT.

Proponents of HCR say doing something is better than nothing. Opponents saying doing anything could be worse than doing nothing: where the government is concerned, their track record proves that out.

Again and again, I keep hearing the same things - that there is lack of affordable insurance coverage, that pre-existing conditions are too often exclusionary, that there is lack of portability in existing coverage, that there is lack of choice in scope of coverage, etc. That is, now that the main focus has officially switched from Health Care Reform to Health INSURANCE reform.

So the main problems are NOT within the health care system, per new emphasis from PBO and the Washington cadre. If that is the case, why doesn't PBO and Congress simply focus on the several most critical issues, identify and define them, and review what can be done to fix it? WITHOUT a massive overhaul and nationalization that may be the living epitome of the cure being worse than the cause?

For example, the government claims a primary goal of their involvement is to increase competition. In what ways can the government increase competition in the private sector insurance industry to meet that goal, without become a competitive player? By lowering barriers for interstate competition for business.

Another: In what way can the government increase portability and provide more choice in health insurance, again without becoming a part of the structure? By increasing availability of group plans outside of individual employers or workers groups, allowing small business insurance consortiums, even individuals to buy into group plans through their banks or credit unions, as they can now for auto, mortgage and life insurance. By increasing MSA's, and eliminating penalties for annual roll-overs.

An immediate thing they could do? Allow a straight up tax reduction for your medical expenses. Period. No minimum to meet, just a straight, across the board deduction for every dollar you spend.

I know these are simplistic. But why do we accept the garbage that a viable solution can not be simplistic? Why do we accept that it can only be achieved through nothing less than a high-stakes gamble that the government can not only help, but can solve through bureaucracy the most personally meaningful part of Americans' lives?

I appreciate a decent response, instead of finger wagging and canned retort. However I sadly feel that even the ideas you suggest would not fulfill the needs of the American public. More options outside of the current system would have to be enforced by the government, you'd be surprised how many of your right leaning constituents would shy away even from that, unfortunately the right is made of a large population of MSM educated people. When Rush, O'Reilly, Beck, or anyone associated with Fox News speaks, they've learned for the day. Of course this isn't everyone, obviously yourself for example, but a vast majority cannot be denied. Just the other day I hear rush spouting off about how the government needs a COMPLETELY hands off approach to this. The current system is fine. And that was that. His 5 second quip, do you realize how much of America this small statement has corrupted into thinking that the current system is A-Okay? A lot of people won't even be happy if the government simply added more rules to the game for Insurers, because the government should be completely hands off. They're going so far now as to BLAME the government for the current situation BECAUSE they have laws regulating the insurance industry, this as I and everyone with half a loaf in their head ought know, is false.

Next, we come to tax write offs. Sounds good on paper, in execution not so much. I was in the ER about 4 or 5 days ago, spent 6 hours in there. I saw 3 doctors, a CAT scan, several blood and other tests. The total $8000+- does not go to a doctor, it goes to several doctors, several labs, and the hospital itself. I'll be billed by no less than 5 different agencies. Just because they can write off 100% of this doesn't mean that they'll do it. They still make more charging everyone and getting money from those who do pay. Remember, hospitals and constituants have already a lot of write offs. While the doctors themselves may appreciate that +-20% that they save on writing off 100% of their income (it'd never actually be that high, only would count for the individual cases, so we're looking at even less of a writ eoff than this) It is hardly worth ignoring billing a patient the 200$ it would bring you to charge them, when in the end you get paid when patients pay. If a doctor offered purely free treatment to every patient, even with write offs, he'd be bankrupt in a month.

More regulation in the insurance industry won't help the worst cases we have. The homeless are a huge health risk, not only to themselves, but the public at large. When I was an EMT I learned a lot about the distance that preventative care goes. The number of homeless cases of Tuberculosis is about 3/4th higher than the average persons here in the US. If treatment of initial symptoms was economically viable to those without income / jobs / homes, then we'd be able to cathc such things early before it spreads. Herd immunity via vaccines is nice, but some things have no vaccine so we require early detection and treatment to avoid a wider spread (and MUCH more expensive) cases. I test positive for TB (I don't' have it, but I've been exposed in my time working as an EMT), I go to the health department, since they offer free (tax paid) treatment / xray testing for TB. The last time I went was a month ago, in preparation for this upcoming semester. The number of active cases was over 150, each of them having a final XRay test and treatment. The treatment is VERY expensive, the Xrays are not cheap. Guess who pays for all this, you and me, with taxes. If the number of new TB cases was reduced, alone, by the availability of universal health care and preventative care, we could save around 3 billion dollars. The amount saved by early diagnosis and treatment of virulent disease that's spread could be halted by early diagnosis, could save tons of money, money which could then be used to pay for the healthcare offered.

A lot of this seems to be ignored by detractors. Your ideas are a step in the right direction, but I don't think they've quite reached the needed level of assistance that this country will require.

 

[dahermit]

A start: Kick everybody out of the country who is here illegally, and soaking our systems left and right, courtesy of Dems who have a bleeding heart for everyone but Americans.

And every wealthy Republican who hire illegals for field workers, gardeners, nanny's, cooks, other domestics to save on what it would cost to hire a citizen to do the same work.