Define conservatism

Tell me where I might hear non violent muslims speaking out against the more violent variety short of an anonymous web site. They certainly don't protest in the streets, and few and far apart are those who are willing to say a word before the cameras against the violence. Exactly where do you go to "listen" to any who are not violent?

I don't know about you but the only violent Muslims I've seen are the ones on the news and they all just happen to be in countries that we've either invaded or ones that we've talked about invading. You're point is completely invalid, it's like saying everyone in the south wants to kill black people because they don't stage million man marches in opposition when the KKK stages a march. I mean I'm not going out to DC holding up signs about how I don't really hate someone.

Palerider you have a very selective approach to the issue. Whenever the news interviews the regular people on the street whether here or in Bagdhad they always get a lot of people who are intelligent and coherent (many of whom support the United States) and they always get some radicals cursing the US.

Also you neglect to see that an enormous portion of our force in Iraq is comprised of people who joined the National Guard. Note the 'Guard' part of that. They signed up on the agreement that they would be defending their nation not invading another one.
 
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I don't know about you but the only violent Muslims I've seen are the ones on the news and they all just happen to be in countries that we've either invaded or ones that we've talked about invading. You're point is completely invalid, it's like saying everyone in the south wants to kill black people because they don't stage million man marches in opposition when the KKK stages a march. I mean I'm not going out to DC holding up signs about how I don't really hate someone.[/quote]

Do you believe that the kkk could kill blacks and jews on a scale that even begins to approach the level of muslim violence and not be spoken out against and even physically attacked in this country? The fact is that whenever the KKK wants to stage a march, they are required to apply for a permit far in advance so police protection can be provided for them as they are not safe on the streets wearing their kkk garb. Your analogy is without merit.

Further, we have exerted political influence in non muslim nations and have not provoked terror campaigns and there are citizens of the muslim nations that we have invaded or talked about invading who are Christians and we do not see the Christians, those of any faith except islam, engaging in terror campaigns. The problem is not political influence, the problem is islam.

Palerider you have a very selective approach to the issue. Whenever the news interviews the regular people on the street whether here or in Bagdhad they always get a lot of people who are intelligent and coherent (many of whom support the United States) and they always get some radicals cursing the US.

Islam is not apologizing for itself. If the theoretical majority were publicly denouncing violent muslims that would be one thing. They are not. Silence implies concent.

Also you neglect to see that an enormous portion of our force in Iraq is comprised of people who joined the National Guard. Note the 'Guard' part of that. They signed up on the agreement that they would be defending their nation not invading another one.

National Guard soldiers take the same oath as any other military personel. When one joins the military one accepts the possibility of being sent to war.
 
Further, we have exerted political influence in non muslim nations and have not provoked terror campaigns and there are citizens of the muslim nations that we have invaded or talked about invading who are Christians and we do not see the Christians, those of any faith except islam, engaging in terror campaigns. The problem is not political influence, the problem is islam.

We have not exerted political influence in their countries as you say. That is a blatant misstatement. Our government has exerted force in their countries.

Again what you do not understand is taht Islam does not separate itself from politics.

Until you have answered that question Lily asked you about trying non-interference first then you are only showing that you do not have an answer.

Your only answer has been that Christians in those areas do not commit terrorist acts but once again Christians separate religion and politics so that does not answer the question.


Islam is not apologizing for itself. If the theoretical majority were publicly denouncing violent muslims that would be one thing. They are not. Silence implies concent.

Let's say you are right and they all agree that anything is justified because their areas have been invaded by the US and Israel, and that is why you do not hear more apologizing.
That still leaves the question for you to answer about us stopping the invasions and then see what they would do.
 
We have not exerted political influence in their countries as you say. That is a blatant misstatement. Our government has exerted force in their countries.[/quote]

Patently untrue. And ONCE AGAIN, we have exerted military force in non islamic nations and they have not resorted to terror campaigns which is really irrelavent in that islam's terror campaign has gone on unabated since the 10th century. They were engaging in terror long before columbus ever opened up this part of the world.

The problem is islam.

Again what you do not understand is taht Islam does not separate itself from politics.

I understand that perfectly. Either way you slice it, islam is violent whether it be view in a religious context or political.

Until you have answered that question Lily asked you about trying non-interference first then you are only showing that you do not have an answer.

You yourself said that you don't favor leaving them to their own devices and now you are harping on me for rejecting that point as well? Leaving them alone does not serve any purpose. Europen countries that are not involved in the middle east conflict are experiencing terror attacks within their countries. The problem is islam.

Your only answer has been that Christians in those areas do not commit terrorist acts but once again Christians separate religion and politics so that does not answer the question.

Terror is the language of islam whether it is political or religious. Islam is the problem.

Let's say you are right and they all agree that anything is justified because their areas have been invaded by the US and Israel, and that is why you do not hear more apologizing.

We did not invade that area. They are, and always have been the invaders. Learn the history.

That still leaves the question for you to answer about us stopping the invasions and then see what they would do.

Would you like a comprehensive list of terror attacks against american interests going back for decades before we ever invaded any part of the middle east? It exists. Islam has been attacking american interests since the late 50's and early 60's. The problem is islam.
 
Europen countries that are not involved in the middle east conflict are experiencing terror attacks within their countries. The problem is islam.

Yes, there was some trouble in France over an economic issue. There was trouble in Denmark over a cartoon they felt disrespected Muhammed. But it was not just about "killing infidels" even though that is what you seem to be trying to imply.


Terror is the language of islam whether it is political or religious. Islam is the problem.

How many times are you going to keep chanting that "Islam is the problem" or "The problem is Islam".
Do you think the similarity is not obvious between your vilifying Islam and the vilifying of other religions or political philosophies in the past ?
Neocons need to posit an enemy who is some kind of huge threat, that is the way they mobilize US citizens to tolerate their preemptive wars to "remake the Middle East".
It's the same rhetoric as what was used all those years against Communism during the Cold War.


Would you like a comprehensive list of terror attacks against american interests going back for decades before we ever invaded any part of the middle east? It exists. Islam has been attacking american interests since the late 50's and early 60's. The problem is islam.

LOL, what a coincidence !!!
The 50s and 60s were precisely the time that the US government began its policy of meddling in their political affairs, with the deposing of Iran's rightful ruler and the installation of the yes-man Pahlavi for US business interests.
 
How many times are you going to keep chanting that "Islam is the problem" or "The problem is Islam".
Do you think the similarity is not obvious between your vilifying Islam and the vilifying of other religions or political philosophies in the past ?
Neocons need to posit an enemy who is some kind of huge threat, that is the way they mobilize US citizens to tolerate their preemptive wars to "remake the Middle East".
It's the same rhetoric as what was used all those years against Communism during the Cold War.

The U.S. kept using that rhetoric during the Cold War because the problem was Communism. It was a actual threat during the Cold War, just as radical Islam is a very real threat today. Radical Christianity or Judaism has never posed a legitimate threat to this country. Radical islam is the biggest threat to Western civilization today. There is no need to vilify when you present the facts about what radical Islam has done.

I am curious to know if you, or any of the others on this board know the reason Osama bin Ladin came to have such hatred for the United States.
 
You yourself said that you don't favor leaving them to their own devices and now you are harping on me for rejecting that point as well?

Reread the thread. What I said to you was that I disagreed with both you and Lilly, my tactic would be to talk with them instead of your way (invading their countries) or Lilly's way (leaving them alone). Lilly then agreed with me that talking is a good idea too.


We did not invade that area. They are, and always have been the invaders. Learn the history.

You learn the history. These charges you make are absurd, casting the west as always good and Muslims as always evil.


Would you like a comprehensive list of terror attacks against american interests going back for decades before we ever invaded any part of the middle east? It exists.

I've seen your list and the only place it can be found is on certified Islamophobe sites like "Jihad Watch".
 
We did not invade that area. They are, and always have been the invaders. Learn the history.

I suppose that this is in reference to the fact that Muslims conquered most of the Middle East in the seventh century, yes? Or the fact that failed Muslim invasions of Europe took place throughout the Middle Ages, into the Renaissance? Or perhaps it has to do with the Ottoman Empire's support of Germany during WWI?

Well, yes. Those things did happen. In each of those cases Muslim forces invaded and at least attempted to conquer the natural inhabitants of the areas they were moving towards. You're correct in the assessment that Muslims have, historically been invaders.

However, if we're going to discuss religion and warfare, taking a glance at what historians refer to as the "Age of Religious Warfare" might be a good idea. Especially since all that religious warfare centers on the West - the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics as Protestantism was founded. Especially since it shows that Islam is not the only world religion that has had more than its healthy share of warfare. Especially since despite the extreme violence promoted and propagated by the Catholic Church it is considered a "peaceful" religion today - because it is recognized that all religion is interpretative.

Let's take a quick look at the Five Pillars of Islam.

The first is Shahadah - total submission to the will of God. There's a recitation that is the basis of Shahadah - it goes something like, "The only God is Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger." This is an acknowledgment that, in the Islamic faith, Allah is the only God (Islam, like Christianity and Judaism, is monotheistic).

The second is Salah, which requires Muslims to pray five times a day. There are some pretty specific guidelines: pray at this time, use a prayer rug/mat, pray in the direction of the holy city (Mecca, in case you were wondering), etc.

The third is Zakat, or "alms-giving." Basically it is a sort of required charity with varying levels depending on how materially wealthy you are.

The fourth is Sawm, fasting. Muslims use fasting in a number of different ways - it is considered a way to grow closer to Allah and it is considered a form of capitulation for wrongs (analogous to confession in Christianity).

The fifth is Hajj, or pilgrimage, which requires every able-bodied Muslim to make a journey to Mecca at least once in his or her lifetime. Once again, there are guidelines - what to wear and how close you can get to certain things, etc.

Those are the five pillars of Islam, the core beliefs shared by all Muslims (and if they don't follow those in some way then they ain't Muslims). These five pillars can be interpreted in a number of ways - especially that first one, Shahadah, which is the submission to the will of Allah. Where do we find the will of Allah?

The Qur'an. The only "true" version of the Qur'an, according to Muslims, is the one that is written in the original Arabic...so let's take a look at Arabic for a minute.

I think the word we're all the most interested in here is "jihad," because that is central to the Muslim beliefs on warfare. The West has always thought of "jihad" as meaning "crusade"; this is not the case. The closest word we have in English to "jihad" is "struggle."

There are two forms of jihad described by the Qur'an: Lesser Jihad and Greater Jihad.

Lesser Jihad pertains to self-defense of the faith and its followers. One of the biggest tenets of lesser jihad is the idea that no woman, child, or innocent is to be harmed in the defense of the religion.

Greater Jihad pertains to fighting the evil inherent in one's soul. It is mostly an internal conflict, although it has external factors, as well. One of the biggest tenets of greater jihad is the resistance of temptation to disregard other tenets of the faith, such as morning prayers.

So there you have it. That's what jihad is. If you read through the rest of the Qur'an you'll see that the Muslims were pretty high on themselves, but this is their holy book and that's only to be expected. They discuss the "time of ignorance" that came before the realization of Islam (they especially thought that polytheism was heretical); they levy taxes on non-Muslim men ("Jizyas"); they're even willing to forgive murder, so long as the heir of the victim forgives the murderer ("Quisas" being the fine that is levied in case of that happening).

So where does the problem come from? Well, it comes from the word "mujahideen" (literally, "struggler" or "one who struggles") and the fact that the mujahideen are considered to be on a different societal level than the qaid, those who choose not to struggle.

In certain sects of Islam, it is believed that the only way to really defend the faith is to attack non-proponents. You could think of this as being preemptive jihad and its been practiced a lot over the years. It is just as valid an interpretation of the literal meaning of the word "jihad" as those who say that it only means to defend oneself against direct attack. However, because the validity of the aggressive argument is as valid and not more so, it becomes plain to see that all views on jihad are interpretations of an original text.

The bottom line through all of this is that everyone who practices Islam interprets it. No Muslim alive today participated in those conquests. Many Muslims who are alive today live in just as much fear of being killed by extremists because those extremists interpret the meaning of jihad differently; moderate Muslims living in Iraq just want to be left alone (their version of "jihad" is self-defense) whereas extreme Muslims want to blow up everyone who doesn't agree with them (their version of "jihad" is preemptive). Moderate Muslims don't speak out against their wayward cousins because A) it isn't their responsibility and B) the best way to defend one's self is to not provoke an aggressor.
 
The U.S. kept using that rhetoric during the Cold War because the problem was Communism. It was a actual threat during the Cold War, just as radical Islam is a very real threat today.

Communism was the problem ?... Can it not be said that the problem was actually more like *relations between the US and some of the countries which had chosen communism* ??


Radical Christianity or Judaism has never posed a legitimate threat to this country.

Although each of those has posed a fatal threat to various areas at some time in the past (and that alone should prevent us from singling out Muslims as the spawn of hell ... the way some people do on this board).


Radical islam is the biggest threat to Western civilization today. There is no need to vilify when you present the facts about what radical Islam has done.

And I repeat that the actions of radical Islam are the direct consequence of certain western policies, starting around the end of the nineteenth century and souped up after WWII.
Absent those, you would have very little to talk about without reaching back a thousand years.


I am curious to know if you, or any of the others on this board know the reason Osama bin Ladin came to have such hatred for the United States.

I have a fair idea, from reading something he wrote in [I think it was] 1999. Let me see if I can find that later.
 
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Reread the thread. What I said to you was that I disagreed with both you and Lilly, my tactic would be to talk with them instead of your way (invading their countries) or Lilly's way (leaving them alone). Lilly then agreed with me that talking is a good idea too.

Talking with a group that freely admits that they believe it is perfectly fine and acceptable to lie to one's enemy if an advantage can be gained? Which parts of what they say do you suppose we should accept as truth?

I've seen your list and the only place it can be found is on certified Islamophobe sites like "Jihad Watch".

Actually, a comprehensive list of islamic terrorists attacks can be found in numerous locations. And your seemingly never ending ad hominem attacks on sources simply because you don't like them highlights the weakness of your position. You have yet to point out a single inaccuracy at jihad watch. It is clear that you don't like them but since they are telling the truth, one must wonder why you don't like them.
 
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