Cut Israel Off

Arabs choose to leave

The Jews original claim to the land because they lived their first is not a fair or valid claim on those who were established residents post world war two...

Problem... the Jews were established residents post world war two. As stated before, the Jews have ALWAYS lived in Palestine. They did under the Romans, the did under Ottoman, and they did under British, and they do now.

By what logic do you claim that the established resident jews post WW2 should be forced off their land?

Would you give it back to them if they said it was the holy house of their personal religion, and the promised house given to them by a God they follow but you don't? I very much doubt you would, think of it that way.

As stated, the Muslims believe in Abraham, and the God of Abraham gave that land to the Jews. So if I believed in Abraham, yes, as matter of fact, I would give the land to the Jews.

Regardless of whether they were their first, or if they were kicked out unfairly a long time ago, or if their God promised it to them - its not their land and hasn't been for a very long time and its not fair to effect other people because of this.

The other people were effected by their own choice. The Arab people choose to leave, even after being requested to stay. The land IS Israel's and it's not their fault Arabs choose to 'displace' themselves. You can't claim that it's 'not fair' for Israel to do something that... they didn't do.
 
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I wonder why you guys feel compelled to comment upon topics you know absolutely nothing about.

Really?

You claim: They lived in a land without government so they formed their own. Defined the terrirtory and 7 arab nations declared war on the newly formed nation, denying them any territory.

UN Resolution 181 created Israel (from wikipedia):

On 29 November 1947 the United Nations voted a plan for the partition of the British Mandate territory of Palestine to resolve the Arab-Israeli conflict in the British Mandate of Palestine. The plan came to be called the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine or United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181. The plan was approved by the United Nations General Assembly by 33 votes to 13, with 10 abstentions.

The plan would have partitioned the territory of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with the Greater Jerusalem area, encompassing Bethlehem, coming under international control.
 
The Arab people choose to leave, even after being requested to stay. The land IS Israel's and it's not their fault Arabs choose to 'displace' themselves. You can't claim that it's 'not fair' for Israel to do something that... they didn't do.

I don't think they exactly "chose" to leave nor were they exactly "requested" to stay. When they tried to comeback they were refused and their homes and lands given to Jewish citizens with no compensation.
 
Blow up your kids for citizenship!

That isn't entirely true. The world powers that split up the Middle East determined what was Israel, what was Palestine. War changed the borders but they were finalized in 1948 and agreed to by both Israel and the Arabs and Israel was officially formed.

None of it included the current occupied territories.

IF it is part of Israel legitimately then Israel better give them their rights as citizens of Israel.

In 1959 Hawaii and Alaska joined the US by statehood. Question... if the residence of Hawaii were strapping bombs to their children, and sending them into such military targets as night clubs full of American students... would you be as interested in granting them statehood with full rights as Americans and public assistance?

I for one would not. Nor will Israel. If the Arabs were working with Israel, and attempting to gain favor for statehood, living in peace, then yes. But when the moral of the people is so great, they blow up their own children... no.
 
I don't care if they won it in battle

Uhh, you should care. The world order is not predicated on "who was there first."

You are British; you are a beneficiary of this; you should know better. If you oppose right of conquest, you should clarify your opposition by removing yourself and the influence of your conquering Norman ancestors back to France and ceding Britain to the Anglo-Saxons. And thereafter removing the influence of your conquering Frankish ancestors from France and returning to Jutland or the Rhine or wherever your progenitors came from.

Even if the Jews had never set foot in the Middle East before this (which, as others have pointed out, is such a flagrant perversion of all evidence that it warrants no rebuttal), right of conquest alone entitles them to the land. You cannot possibly argue otherwise without invalidating the entire international arrangement.

IF it is part of Israel legitimately then Israel better give them their rights as citizens of Israel.

"It had better"? Or what? You'll be indignant?

Israel could just as easily expel the Palestinians to Jordan. If Jordan had simply done the humane thing after the war and repatriated the Palestinians none of this would even be an issue.
 
In 1959 Hawaii and Alaska joined the US by statehood. Question... if the residence of Hawaii were strapping bombs to their children, and sending them into such military targets as night clubs full of American students... would you be as interested in granting them statehood with full rights as Americans and public assistance?

That is totally irrelevent. There is no comparable history here.

IF Israel lays claim to to the occupied territories - the Palestinians must have rights as citizens. They are in a limbo - no rights, no prospects, no coherent country due the intrusion of illegal settlements, no economy or trade that is not under Israel's control. Israel is in a bind because IF it absorbs the occupied territories then it will no longer be a Jewish state. If it doesn't - but holds them the way it is holding them now, it is creating a human rights nightmare and a growing population of desperate, angry people with nothing left to lose.

Israel is every bit as responsible as the Palestinians and the Arabs for the state of affairs and it will need to accept that responsibility along with the Palestinians and the Arabs in order to achieve real peace.

I for one would not. Nor will Israel. If the Arabs were working with Israel, and attempting to gain favor for statehood, living in peace, then yes. But when the moral of the people is so great, they blow up their own children... no.

Israel has itself instigated much violence through it's policies. The idea that Israel is a poor defensive "David" vs. "Goliath" is a myth.
 
Israel could just as easily expel the Palestinians to Jordan. If Jordan had simply done the humane thing after the war and repatriated the Palestinians none of this would even be an issue.

Repatriated?

The Arabs used the Palestinians as pawns, encouraging them to flee while they fought Israel. When the war was over, and the Palestinians attempted to return to their homes they were refused admittance. Their homes and lands were given to Jewish citizens. Exactly what is this "repatriation" by Jordan of a people that didn't originate in the territory that became "Jordan"?
 
Yeah, and rightly so.

I don't think they exactly "chose" to leave nor were they exactly "requested" to stay. When they tried to comeback they were refused and their homes and lands given to Jewish citizens with no compensation.

No joke. But... Let us setup the situation.

The British are pulling out, and YOU have been given the chance for self-rule. You quickly form a partial government, with very few resources. You need a working economy to fund the government in order to survive. So you need people to stay, to live, to work, and to support a newly forming country.

So you send out letters to all the people, telling them to not leave, and they would be granted full citizenship and rights. The letters went to everyone, not just Arabs but Jews too.

The Arabs, who both, hated the Jews, and are scared by the threats of their Muslim brethren who warned of being slaughtered, leave. They voluntarily choose to vacate, desert the newly forming country, and leave their homes in the promise that after YOU are eradicated by the nations surrounding you, that they will be rewarded with their property and homes back.

Meanwhile, you have hundreds and even thousands of Jews showing up with their wives and children, and after Hitler and Stalin, they are willing to fight for their own country. They are willing to pay the heavy cost of war to have a land of their own... but they have one problem.

None of them have a place for their families. No great wealth to purchase or build a home for their wives and children to stay in, while they fight for independence. Even if they did have money, there was no time to build in the middle of a war.

So again, you are the struggling government... You have willing fighters showing up, but they need homes. You have residence leaving, deserting you, after you pleaded with them to stay. What do you do?

You give the homes, of those that choose to desert the country, to those willing to fight and pay the price for independence.

So yes. Those deserting Arabs, lost their homes to those willing to fight for the country, and rightly so. I completely support this. There is no question in my mind that this is a justified and even morally correct course of action.

Those Arabs who didn't leave, even if they refused to fight, were given complete citizenship, and didn't lose their property. Again, a justified and correct course of action.

Ironically, the Muslims promised the Arabs in Palestine, that they would slaughter the Jews and give their homes over to the Arabs. Poetic justice in my mind that, the exact reverse happened. Makes you wonder if maybe there is a God?
 
Israel has done more than enough.

That is totally irrelevent. There is no comparable history here.

IF Israel lays claim to to the occupied territories - the Palestinians must have rights as citizens. They are in a limbo - no rights, no prospects, no coherent country due the intrusion of illegal settlements, no economy or trade that is not under Israel's control. Israel is in a bind because IF it absorbs the occupied territories then it will no longer be a Jewish state. If it doesn't - but holds them the way it is holding them now, it is creating a human rights nightmare and a growing population of desperate, angry people with nothing left to lose.

Right, and when the people choose to commit terrorist attacks, rather than working with Israel toward that goal, I don't blame Israel for Arabs blowing up their kids, in order to kill other kids. There is ZERO excuse for that. None.

Israel is every bit as responsible as the Palestinians and the Arabs for the state of affairs and it will need to accept that responsibility along with the Palestinians and the Arabs in order to achieve real peace.

Israel has itself instigated much violence through it's policies.

Like the Policy of allowing a Palestinian Authority? Like offering more than half of Israel's current land for peace? Like trying to give the land to Egypt or Jordan? Which horrible policy are you referring to?

Israel has done a hundred times as much as I would expect, to achieve peace, but the Arabs continue to strap bombs to their children. No. Israel has done more than enough, and these monsters continue to commit terrorist acts.
 
I know you dont realize it but your source confirms my statements and directly contradicts yours.

The failure of the British government and the United Nations to implement this plan, prior agreement between the Jewish Agency and King Abdullah to divide Palestine between them,[1] and rejection of the plan by the Arabs resulted in the War for Independence, also known as the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.


Really?

You claim: They lived in a land without government so they formed their own. Defined the terrirtory and 7 arab nations declared war on the newly formed nation, denying them any territory.

UN Resolution 181 created Israel (from wikipedia):

On 29 November 1947 the United Nations voted a plan for the partition of the British Mandate territory of Palestine to resolve the Arab-Israeli conflict in the British Mandate of Palestine. The plan came to be called the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine or United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181. The plan was approved by the United Nations General Assembly by 33 votes to 13, with 10 abstentions.

The plan would have partitioned the territory of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with the Greater Jerusalem area, encompassing Bethlehem, coming under international control.
 
No joke. But... Let us setup the situation.

The British are pulling out, and YOU have been given the chance for self-rule. You quickly form a partial government, with very few resources. You need a working economy to fund the government in order to survive. So you need people to stay, to live, to work, and to support a newly forming country.

So you send out letters to all the people, telling them to not leave, and they would be granted full citizenship and rights. The letters went to everyone, not just Arabs but Jews too.

The Arabs, who both, hated the Jews, and are scared by the threats of their Muslim brethren who warned of being slaughtered, leave. They voluntarily choose to vacate, desert the newly forming country, and leave their homes in the promise that after YOU are eradicated by the nations surrounding you, that they will be rewarded with their property and homes back.

Meanwhile, you have hundreds and even thousands of Jews showing up with their wives and children, and after Hitler and Stalin, they are willing to fight for their own country. They are willing to pay the heavy cost of war to have a land of their own... but they have one problem.

None of them have a place for their families. No great wealth to purchase or build a home for their wives and children to stay in, while they fight for independence. Even if they did have money, there was no time to build in the middle of a war.

So again, you are the struggling government... You have willing fighters showing up, but they need homes. You have residence leaving, deserting you, after you pleaded with them to stay. What do you do?

You give the homes, of those that choose to desert the country, to those willing to fight and pay the price for independence.

So yes. Those deserting Arabs, lost their homes to those willing to fight for the country, and rightly so. I completely support this. There is no question in my mind that this is a justified and even morally correct course of action.

Those Arabs who didn't leave, even if they refused to fight, were given complete citizenship, and didn't lose their property. Again, a justified and correct course of action.

Ironically, the Muslims promised the Arabs in Palestine, that they would slaughter the Jews and give their homes over to the Arabs. Poetic justice in my mind that, the exact reverse happened. Makes you wonder if maybe there is a God?

Those arabs who fled: given the context of the times, not looking at it from hindsite - would they have good reason to believe that they would be granted citizenship? Keep in mind the varied Zionist terrorist groups at the time, keep in mind the complex post-colonial situation....do you stay put or do you flee?

The Palestinians fled out of fear of being killed - whether that fear was justified or not, it's impossible to say. They were refugees. Usually refugees are allowed back. Israel did not allow them back once the war was over. They took their houses and give them to Jewish citizens. Finally, under international pressure they relented and let a few - a very few back in. And no, I don't agree that they now have a "right of return". That's an impossible situation for Israel demographically. But they are owed something. Their cause is just as righteous as that of the Israeli's and their plight just as unjust. That's the problem. Isreal should stick to it's agreed upon 1948 borders - get rid of all the illegal settlements and allow the Palestinians some sort of coherent country. Ever hear the term prosperity brings peace? Peace was possible - until extremists on both sides killed.

People also tend to conveniently ignore Israel's had a part in instigating hostilities in order to gain territory in 1967 - this has been openly admitted by a number of high level Israeli military and political figures.

It's time to put the lie of poor little Israel vs. big bad arabs to rest. There was plenty of wrong doing done by both sides but no one seems to be willing to hold Israel accountable.
 
Right, and when the people choose to commit terrorist attacks, rather than working with Israel toward that goal, I don't blame Israel for Arabs blowing up their kids, in order to kill other kids. There is ZERO excuse for that. None.



Like the Policy of allowing a Palestinian Authority? Like offering more than half of Israel's current land for peace? Like trying to give the land to Egypt or Jordan? Which horrible policy are you referring to?

Israel has done a hundred times as much as I would expect, to achieve peace, but the Arabs continue to strap bombs to their children. No. Israel has done more than enough, and these monsters continue to commit terrorist acts.


Like the policy of building illegal settlements, closing off the palestinian territories to trade and commerce, bulldozing communities, preventing Palestinians from getting to their places of work, farms or hospitals. .How many Palestinian civilians have been killed? How many Israeli's?

Offering land for peace yes...but it's land that does not belong to Israel and Israel is in a real bind: it will either have to accept the inhabitants as citizens of Israel, which would be demographic suicide or allow the Palestinians to create a state. But how exactly can a viable state be created when it is criss crossed by settlements - settlements that cut off communities from each other?
 
Israel is in a real bind: it will either have to accept the inhabitants as citizens of Israel, which would be demographic suicide or allow the Palestinians to create a state.

?????? "allow the Palestinians to create a state" wtf does that mean? Who is stopping them? Gaza is a good demonstration of the Palestinians ability to create a state.
 
?????? "allow the Palestinians to create a state" wtf does that mean? Who is stopping them? Gaza is a good demonstration of the Palestinians ability to create a state.

Reality check.


Look at Gaza http://www.theglobaleducationproject.org/mideast/info/maps/gaza-strip-2003-map.jpg

Now, how can a viable state be created out of that mess, with closed borders and all trade and crossing under Israel's control?

Now I'm not holding the Palestinians blameless either. Unlike you - I see there are considerable issues on both sides yet only one side is held accountable.
 
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Poor blameless Israel and the 1967 War

I posted this in another thread because the issue is not really the 1948 conflict and resolution that established Israel's borders but rather the 1967 war that established the "occupied territories" and the building of settlements. I'll post it again because it just goes to show how one-sided this dispute so often is because, essentially - it is politically incorrect to critisize the policies of Israel.

--------------

I think some questions need to be asked . The official version accepted by much of the West and Israel itself is that Israel was provoked and was acting only in self defense. The official version makes great effort to portray little David Israel vs. big Goliath Arabs. To challenge this is to lay one open to charges of anti-semitism.

Was Israel itself in any sort of threat? Why don't you listen to Israeli officials themselves at the time?

First Question– How did Israel justify its attack?

Israeli UN envoy Abba Eban initially claimed to the United Nations Security Council that Egyptian troops had attacked first and that Israel's air strikes were retaliatory. Less than one month later, however, Israel admitted that it had launched the first strike. It asserted that it had faced an impending attack by Egypt, evidenced by Egypt's bellicose rhetoric, removal of UN peacekeeping troops from the Sinai Peninsula, closure of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, and concentration of troops along Israel's borders The Soviet Union then introduced a resolution to the UN Security Council naming Israel the aggressor in the war. This resolution was blocked by the US and Great Britain. Thereafter, the UN failed to rule definitively on the legality of Israel's actions, although it called for Israel's withdrawal from territories it seized.

Second Question: Is Israel's version of the facts universally accepted, even among Israeli’s?

Israel's claim of an impending Egyptian attack has been widely accepted in the West (note – no one is willing to go against it for fear of political fallout). The Israeli public had also been led to believe that it faced a threat of imminent attack, and perhaps even annihilation . (déjà vous – shades of Iraq here?)
However, the veracity of Israel's claim is increasingly questioned. A number of senior Israeli military and political figures have subsequently admitted that Israel was not faced with a genuine threat of attack, and instead, deliberately chose war.

Yitzhak Rabin (the Israeli army chief of staff during the war), later stated "I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it."

Menachem Begin: In the New York Times, August 21st, 1982, he stated "In June l967, we had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."

General Yeshayahu Gavish: "The concept that out-teched Egypt would attack Israel's over 230,000 troops with a pathetic 80,000 is nonsense. Egypt was a nation with over 110 million people, and they only had 80,000 on the border. One would have to be rather silly to think that this was all they could muster”

Gen. Matityahu Peled (a reserve general in the 1967 war, who achieved major military success) was so frustrated with Israel's rush to war that he ended up as an activist for peace. In an interview with Haaretz on March 19th, 1972, he stated "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war" and "To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our frontiers were in a position to threaten the existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analyzing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal." In addition, a June 1972 article in Le Monde that cites Peled says "All those stories about the huge danger we were facing because of our small territorial size, an argument expounded once the war was over, had never been considered our calculations prior to the unleashing of hostilities. While we proceeded towards the full mobilization of our forces, no person in his right mind could believe that all this force was necessary to our defence against the Egyptian threat. To pretend that the Egyptian forces concentrated on our borders were capable of threatening Israel's existence does not only insult the intelligence of any person capable of analyzing this kind of situation, but is primarily an insult to the Israeli army."

Gen Haim Bar-Lev (another famous general of the 6 day war and previous wars, Deputy Chief of Staff in 1967 and Chief of Staff from 1968 to 1972 and a Knesset member) stated in April 1972 that "We were not threatened with genocide on the eve of the Six Day War and we had never thought of such a possibility."

Gen. Ezer Weizman (an air force general during the Six Day War, Chief of Operations of the General Staff, and later Deputy Chief of Staff) was a major proponent of the attack, yet in his book he writes that he told the prime minister, "If you give the order [to launch an attack], Jewish history will mark you as a great leader. If you don't, it will never forgive you."). He is well known for his quote that "There never was danger of extermination. The Jews of the Diaspora would like, for reasons of their own, to see us as heroes, our backs to the wall."​

Third Question: What were Israel’s true objectives?

One objective may have been territorial expansion. Some Israeli politicians and military leaders, such as former Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion and Minister of Defence Moshe Dayan lamented the failure to seize East Jerusalem and the West Bank in the 1948 war. Before the war, Jordan's King Hussain told the American ambassador: "They want the West Bank. They've been waiting for a chance to get it, and they're going to take advantage of us and they're going to attack." More statements from prominent Israeli figures confirm this policy of pre-emptive annexation through self-defense.

Mordechai Bentov (member of multiple Knessets and author of "The Bi-National Solution for the Land of Israel") voted against the attack. On April 14, 1971, he stated "The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail, and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory." – my goodness - Israel *did* claim new territory, and then promptly began settling it.

Gen. Matityahu Peled: According to Peled, more than half of the Golan Heights clashes were "a result of our security policy of maximum settlement in the demilitarized area.".

Another possibility might have been that Israeli politicians were genuinely fearful of Jamal Abdul Nasser, the charismatic leader of Arab nationalism. They may have seen the war as an opportunity to embarrass him and destroy the movement he embodied.

Israeli leaders may also have seen military confrontation with the Arab states as inevitable, and chose to engage in battle at a time and under terms of their choosing. Menachem Begin, for example, characterised Israel's war aim as to "take the initiative and attack the enemy, drive him back, and thus assure the security of Israel and the future of the nation."

What ever the reasons it is not as clear or simple or innocent as has been popularly portrayed and the tale of a "poor, little, threatened Israel" is a myth.
 
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