Cut Israel Off

[numinus]

Are you basing this on the land they were given under the original argreement after WWII? Or are you basing this on their religious stake?

Neither.

Its called ADVERSE CLAIM.

 

[Andy]

er... Yes.

Are you basing this on the land they were given under the original argreement after WWII? Or are you basing this on their religious stake?

They have a religious stake, a military stake, a historic stake, a mandated stake, and more. I'll start with the religious stake since you brought it up.

God says Israel's land is from the river of Egypt, Southern boarder, to the river Euphrates, Northern boarder, from the Great Sea, (Mediterranean Sea) West, to both sides of the Jordan river on the East. This is documented in the books of Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy and 6 other books within the Bible.

This is the historically verifiable homeland to Israel, regardless of your views on God.

As far as the original agreement goes, you may not know that mandate given to Briton, included far more. All of Jordan was to be Israel, all of Gaza was Israel, as far East as the boarder of Iraq, and deep into Arabia. The real original agreement given in 1920 was a huge plot of land. I refer to
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/BritishMandatePalestine1920.png

Israel was carved up over and over to end up being a small scrap, a mere fraction of what was their original historic homeland, let alone the 'original' mandate.

Even then I would argue the UN 'agreement' is only relevant to the point the Jews declared independence. Once they did so, they were and are, a sovereign nation accountable to no one. Further, the sovereign nation of Israel was attacked by nearly every bordering nation, and was well within it's rights to defend itself, and counter attack. We have no more right to demand they return control of land to the people who tried to kill them, than they have right to demand we return control of Afghanistan to the Taliban.

Finely I firmly believe no one else has any right to the land. The Palestine is a made up name. The Romans called the land of Israel 'Palestine' specifically to tick off the Jews. It was a made up name. There are no real 'Palestinians'. If anyone can be called a 'Palestinian' it's the Jews. The Jews have always, continuously, had a presence in 'Palestine' since the days of Israels exodus from Egypt. The people that the ignorant media call 'Palestinians' are none other than Arabs. They never were, never have, never will, have any claim to that land. The people, other than Israel, that lived in Palestine, namely the Canaanites and Philistines, were wiped out over 3000 years ago, and no longer exist.

Honestly I believe God is causing Israel strife in order to get them to take back all the land that he wants them to have. If you look at the areas where the conflict is, it's where Israel isn't in control of their historic homeland. Lebanon, Syria, Gaza Strip, west bank, and sections of Jordan.

Btw, yes I realize I there is some military control in places like the Gaza Strip, but that's not complete control like what happened to the Golan Heights, and surprisingly you don't hear many problems coming out of there.

 

[heyjude]

Andy, Israelis don't strap bombs to their children because they don't have to. The Israeli Army and Air Force kills the people they want dead every damn day. They kill women, men, children, and the elderly. The tactics that the disenfranchised people around them use are the only weapons they have.

And if there was a god, I presume it would be righteous. Therefore it would not support Israel.

 

[Jeffrey Neuzil]

If anyone has not figured this geopolitical mumbojumbo out, the grandpanjandrums of the middle east—secret, secret, close the doors—are the entire confederation of states—who are lavishly sharing the profits with one another—having a big oil party (see the John M Oil-in foudation) on us, while our politicians profit from it, because the U.S has a large share in it as well (see certain prominent oil-owning magnates and oligarchical elites who prdominate in U.S Politics today: the joke is on us, while they falsely project conflict that is not real and force us to further fill their already infinitely gavitationally Black-hole like coffers. Its not funny watching US servicement, who are lied to about this reality, being told that United States citizens are "terrorists" because they are seeking to unmask this evil, vile, lie—this bull**** lie bigger than any Hitler had in mind when he said the "bigger the lie the more people will believe it": it makes me sick to think U.S soldiers are getting paid to oppress United States citizens who would expose this 'teapot-dome," but that is what is happening, and we are paying for it while our society looks worse by every measure that one can clearly see with ones eyes!

 

[9sublime]

Andy, you fail to realise something very important.

The people who had to be kicked out of their homeland to incorporate a modern day Israel don't give two hoots about Judaism because they are not Jews, so the Jews apparent claim to Israel is invalid to them.

 

[Jeffrey Neuzil]

The Question that Must Be faced:—face-to-face?

Who controls the wealth in the Middle East? Is there genuine hostility there or pretended conflict—Is there real war or "Oceania"?—and to what degree is there a coherence and co-ordination of U.S. interests in the region with all of the oil producing countries in conjunction with Israel, not in opposition to it: Israel provides the bulwark of nuclear security in the region as a quid pro quo for a share in the OPEC coffers, while the U.S. supports both, funding the guns—Israel and profiting immensely from the "butter": while wed support U.S. troops stationed on U.S. soil and an enormous cadre of "terrorist" lobbyists, whose job is to harass to insanity U.S. citizens who try to get a reasonably well focused picture of the shifting sands of disinformation and propaganda that tumble forth from our bidable press, which renounced the role of critical and probing journalism decades ago (see the Maculay quotation that serves as an epigram to Leo Strauss' study "On Tyranny," which answers the question to what has become of our press in the United states since roughly the death of John F. Kennedy: read the 300 page study of the Schiller Institute entitled "Children of Satan," on the now well progressed Martinest and syndicalist movement to create a unified world government;compare this to Kojeve's argument in the earlier mentioned "On Tyranny," which envisions the creation of a "universal and homogenous world state"(compare also in a more popular version F. Fukuyama "The End of History and the Last Man," which by the way is not altogether assured in its conclusion that Liberal democratic governance will satisfy all parties and thus points to the politics of the "New American Century" supported by some—not all—neocons; these politics are dyed in the wool (see Plato's "Statesman"—"carding the wool" Nietzschean Heideggerian politics and I am quite convinced that they are the deepest stratum of present-day political configurations of U.S/Geopolitical structure and its putative conflicts—which I should again stress are largely about dominating those within the U.S who attempt to gain clarity about the past—as winston Smith does in 1984 (a chillingly relevant work for our times[see C. Hitchen's "Why Orwell Matters"?—which answers the question raised in another straussian text—"What is Political Philosophy?" In my view, Weimer Germany is our present horizon, not behind us; and the wealth and economics—a global economic structure—was spawned by the University of Chicago (Political Philosophy (see Gregory Bruce Smith's peerless essay "Who was Leo Strauss? (Political Philosophy), and this has now provided the preconditions for a playing out of the Marxian dialectic of materialism, and may culminate in a revolution; consider the degree of foreign investment in the U.S.: If these investors decided to pull out, they would thrust us economically in a condition resembling Wiemer; then people would have to turn to them—the owners of all the wealth—for a fix, and they could offerus a Neo-National Socialist solution (advocated in my opinion by Heidegger), compromising our Republic and sacrificing our constitution and its liberties: Our future is very much jepordized here, and it remains a profound question if we are up to the challange its presents to all those who—like myself—are very chary of jettisoning the constitution and our liberties, tenuous as they currently at best are?! May we stave off the worst—Tyranny: Sic Semper Tyrannos!

 

[Bunz]

One irony there is that we caused that issue. The only reason we import oil is because the American public ignorantly refuses to allow oil companies to get the oil in our own land. Worse yet, normally the same people supporting these foolish policy, often are the ones complaining about high gas prices and imported oil.

Interesting response to an Alaskan, who like %75 of other Alaskans supports expoloration in ANWR and several other oil fields.
Domestic energy development and a huge effort to develop clean and cheap energy on a level of the Manhattan project to do it is something I would support %100. That way we can not be at the mercy of the Chinese and Sauds economically.

 

[LibertyHawk]

Andy, Israelis don't strap bombs to their children because they don't have to. The Israeli Army and Air Force kills the people they want dead every damn day. They kill women, men, children, and the elderly. The tactics that the disenfranchised people around them use are the only weapons they have.

And if there was a god, I presume it would be righteous. Therefore it would not support Israel.

If Israel wanted Palestine gone, it would be. Palestine wants Israel gone, they just can't do it.
There's a pretty big difference there.

 

[Andy]

Andy, Israelis don't strap bombs to their children because they don't have to. The Israeli Army and Air Force kills the people they want dead every damn day. They kill women, men, children, and the elderly. The tactics that the disenfranchised people around them use are the only weapons they have.

And if there was a god, I presume it would be righteous. Therefore it would not support Israel.

If there is a God, and if he did write a book, then that book states the land is Israels. I hope we can end the 'what if' here?

Israel only attacks when provoked to do so. Israel never targets civilians, the militants in those areas use civilians as human shields. What would you suggest to do if I lob some rockets into you area and then hide behind my children and wife?

Further, what excuse do you have for them strapping bombs to their kids and sending them to kill... not military targets, but other kids?

 

[Andy]

History my friend....

Andy, you fail to realise something very important.

The people who had to be kicked out of their homeland to incorporate a modern day Israel don't give two hoots about Judaism because they are not Jews, so the Jews apparent claim to Israel is invalid to them.

First, there were hundreds of Jews living in 'Palestine' prior to the incorporation of Israel. Jews have always... as in always, lived in Palestine. Now granted a bunch more showed up fleeing Germany and USSR, but there were Jews, and always have been Jews, in the land of Israel prior to it becoming a Jewish state. It was, and is, and always has been, their homeland.

Plus as stated, the other people who lived in the land of Israel... aka Palestine, are not Palestinians. They are Arabs from Arabia. They were not kicked out of their homeland because it never was their homeland. The descendants of Israel *are* the real Palestinians.

Further, the Arabs that lived in Israel were not 'displaced'. They choose to leave. In fact, the leaders of the Zionist movement pleaded with the people to stay, stating that if they stayed, they would be granted full citizenship. And many did, and there are Arabs to this day that live in peace, in Israel, that both vote in elections and hold elected positions.

The reason why so many others did leave was because of their loving Muslim brethren that threatened if they did not leave Israel, when they attacked they would be slaughtered.

 

[Andy]

gov hand outs.

Interesting response to an Alaskan, who like %75 of other Alaskans supports expoloration in ANWR and several other oil fields.
Domestic energy development and a huge effort to develop clean and cheap energy on a level of the Manhattan project to do it is something I would support %100. That way we can not be at the mercy of the Chinese and Sauds economically.

I don't actually support throwing our money at random projects that may not ever produce any results, especially when the government has a huge debt.

Like the hundreds of millions thrown at GM to make better batteries. A fruitless pointless government hand out of our money for... basically nothing. People always talk how bad 'corporate welfare' is, then turn around and say government should support 'development of clean cheap energy'.... but what is that called again? Oh right, it's corporate welfare... your tax money handed out to a corporation.

But yes, I fully support exploration and drilling for the oil in our own land. We likely have enough oil directly under our feet to completely end importing oil. Why we do not get it is.... well... plain stupid. Go smack the nearest eco-nut.

 

[9sublime]

You are still missing the point andy. It doesn't matter about what happened 2,000 years ago, you have to be realistic. Otherwise, by the same logic, it would be fair to give the five southern states of your nation back to Mexico and maybe the rest to the natives anyway because they were the rightful owners and displaced.

In the modern world, its not a valid or realistic claim and to enforce your religious phrophecies on the Palestinians at their expense is not fair.

 

[jb_1430]

You are still missing the point andy. It doesn't matter about what happened 2,000 years ago, you have to be realistic. Otherwise, by the same logic, it would be fair to give the five southern states of your nation back to Mexico and maybe the rest to the natives anyway because they were the rightful owners and displaced.

In the modern world, its not a valid or realistic claim and to enforce your religious phrophecies on the Palestinians at their expense is not fair.

??? He made no claim to Israel based on religious prophecy. And you have it backwards. It is the Palestinians who make claim to ALL of Israel claiming "they were the rightful owners and displaced".

 

[numinus]

Andy, you fail to realise something very important.

The people who had to be kicked out of their homeland to incorporate a modern day Israel don't give two hoots about Judaism because they are not Jews, so the Jews apparent claim to Israel is invalid to them.

Which is what an adverse claim is all about.

It is a claim at the EXPRESS EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHERS.

Such claims are the basis of individual property as well as national sovereignty.

 

[Andy]

That's my case and point.

You are still missing the point andy. It doesn't matter about what happened 2,000 years ago, you have to be realistic. Otherwise, by the same logic, it would be fair to give the five southern states of your nation back to Mexico and maybe the rest to the natives anyway because they were the rightful owners and displaced.

In the modern world, its not a valid or realistic claim and to enforce your religious phrophecies on the Palestinians at their expense is not fair.

Actually your logic is exactly what is being used here. You are saying Israel should give back XXX to whomever because it is their land... but we don't do that here now do we? Why should Israel give back even a section of desert wasteland, when we do not give back to the natives all of north America?

Because we defeated them in battle, just like Israel defeated its enemies like the prophecies said they would. I don't 'enforce' prophecies, they come true as foretold regardless of our petty modern or realistic claims. Furthermore prophecy isn't what I used to justify my points, only to highlight that they have come true.

Again... it isn't their land. No matter how you cut it, the land belongs to Israel. You can't claim that it belongs to XXX because they were there before, but then ignore that before them it belonged to Israel.