Creationist school's plea is denied by state board

[top gun]

An athiest believes that there is no god.
An agnostic says (admits?) that he does not know.

Neither an atheist nor a theist can prove themselves correct.

I think there are a lot more agnostics than will admit it. As you said, none of us really knows.

But, if you really don't believe in religion, how do you measure who is more moral than someone else? Where does your moral code come from?

You don't have to be in any particular religious group to know right from wrong... good from bad... kindness from meanness. A person knows how they would want to be treated... right?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Argh! Your so close to understand why I reject organized, man made religion all together! If we are unable to comprehed the creator, why have you chosen to believe you can and follow a religion!? Don't you see the contradictory flaw?

You don't know ANYTHING about the afterlife, NOBODY does. Instead you have chosen to follow what other humans around you, namely your elders tell you, and follow a man made religion, CHRISTIANITY.

But why do you believe there is a God if you admit that very knowledge is beyond our comprehension? Because its easier to believe? So you admit you are willing to believe in lies if its easier? I think deep down, you are actually an agnostic judging by this post and you have just taken pascal up on his wager.

I'm an athiest/agnostic, and I live a moral life; probably more moral than many so called Christians. Explain that.

Christanity does not explain existence, it fabricates a story to fill the void of knowledge about existence.

Most people are happier believing a comfortable lie than confronting an uncomfortable truth.

 

[The Scotsman]

School should be a neutral environment not hocking any particular religious view.

That's the point.

 

[numinus]

No I'm sorry but it's really not. We don't know... nobody knows how everything began. Through exploration, science and technology we've learned much... but not all. And we've learned that many things that were once firmly established as the way God created it or things attributed to an act of God to really be explainable scientific phenomenon. The world is flat state of mind.

Haven't you gotten the jist of cosmology by now?

A space-time singularity is something that HAS NO MEASUREABLE MASS, SPATIAL DIMENSION NOR TIME -- the fundamental units upon which ALL PHYSICAL PHENOMENA ARE DEPENDENT ON.

How can such a 'thing' become the subject of scientific investigation, eh?

You yourself run into the same argument you present with "you can't get something from nothing". If a God created everything... where did God come from? The answer is the same as the assumption in science... just always been.

Of course not.

The creator is a NECESSARY EXISTENCE. If a contingent existence is something that may or may not exist, a necessary existence, by definition, COULD NOT NOT EXIST.

Notice that for all physical phenomena to be rational, it is imperative that we postulate necessary existence first.

Same can be said about axioms in both mathematics and set theory. LOGIC IS AXIOMATIC, as demonstrated by bertrand russell in his solution to the barber's paradox.

Possibly the most basic elements in the universe just eventually matched up in a way that evolution from the most basic organisms to today became possible over millions or billions of years... we don't know.

The thing is, we do know.

Einstein's field equation derived from general relativity, independently confirmed by the russian physicist freidmann, and scientifically verified by numerous astronomical observations, shows that the presence of all matter and energy in the universe will eventually collapse on itself under the influence of its own gravity -- unless a tensile energy (cosmological constant, vacuum energy, lambda, or whatever else you wish to call such a thing) counters this tendency.

At that point where it collapses on itself, the point of singularity, is the point beyond which the laws of mathematics and physics breaks down.

It is like the function f(x)=1/x approaches infinity as x approaches 0. 1/0 does not exist in mathematics although this fact does not stop us from contemplating the behaviour of a function as it approaches 1/0. That's what calculus is for.

Understand?

But I still believe whole heartedly that creationism is an attempt to explain the unknown through a religious prism without any back up or test... before, during or after. It's not science and should not be taught in the context of being science. I'm in favor of church for creationism study.

I said -- read the cosmological argument and its many variations. It's a 4 line informal argument, for pete's sake.

Is there anything in its proof that remotely suggests theology, hmmm?

 

[numinus]

Numinus - is your idea of "creation" defined by the the creation of whatever began the universe? Something from nothing? Because...if so...I don't think that is what Creationists or even ID'ers are arguing - they are arguing an intellegence guiding the development of all life, including the creation of all species as they currently are.

The cosmological argument was put forth by saint thomas acquainas in the 10th(?) century. Who do you think claims the distinction of 'creationism or intelligent design'?

And who then created the creator?

The first cause is both INFINITE AND INCONTINGENT. That is the conclusion derived from the cosmological argument.

Why even, does it have to be viewed as a linear cycle beginning at creation? Maybe the universe always was? Maybe it is an endless cycle of birth-death-rebirth out of death? No beginning?

Because the math and observations do not support a cyclic universe model.

 

[numinus]

Argh! Your so close to understand why I reject organized, man made religion all together! If we are unable to comprehed the creator, why have you chosen to believe you can and follow a religion!? Don't you see the contradictory flaw?

You don't know ANYTHING about the afterlife, NOBODY does. Instead you have chosen to follow what other humans around you, namely your elders tell you, and follow a man made religion, CHRISTIANITY.



But why do you believe there is a God if you admit that very knowledge is beyond our comprehension? Because its easier to believe? So you admit you are willing to believe in lies if its easier? I think deep down, you are actually an agnostic judging by this post and you have just taken pascal up on his wager.

I'm an athiest/agnostic, and I live a moral life; probably more moral than many so called Christians. Explain that.

Christanity does not explain existence, it fabricates a story to fill the void of knowledge about existence.

Of course not.

We believe creationism because it is INTUITIVELY TRUE.

Its opposite, that the universe has and will always exist, is the proposition that stretches the limits of logic and challenges human credulity.

 

[numinus]

hmmm...maybe the universe is God's body.

Or god's dream.

If you're into these kinds of speculation, you'd probably enjoy sophie's world. The ending is totally unexpected.

 

[arbitor]

Argh! Your so close to understand why I reject organized, man made religion all together! If we are unable to comprehed the creator, why have you chosen to believe you can and follow a religion!? Don't you see the contradictory flaw?

we can comprehend that he created us and listen to his influence in our lives and have faith in him. that is enough. we would be equal to him if we could fully understand him. there is no logical flaw in this idiology.

You don't know ANYTHING about the afterlife, NOBODY does. Instead you have chosen to follow what other humans around you, namely your elders tell you, and follow a man made religion, CHRISTIANITY.

we have no record of who "invented" christianity. it has existed throughout all recorded history. explain that.



But why do you believe there is a God if you admit that very knowledge is beyond our comprehension? Because its easier to believe? So you admit you are willing to believe in lies if its easier? I think deep down, you are actually an agnostic judging by this post and you have just taken pascal up on his wager.

the knowlege of what exactly god is, is beyond our comprehension, but that doesnt mean he doesnt exist. we can see intelligent design all around us. have you ever heard of bodes law?

I'm an athiest/agnostic, and I live a moral life; probably more moral than many so called Christians. Explain that.

why? why do you live a moral life when there is no point to existence and there are no written morals in science and evolution other than survival of the fittest? dont you know where morals come from? they come from philosophy and religion. if you say they come from science than all respect i have for you would be annialated, becuase that statement would be absurd.

Christanity does not explain existence, it fabricates a story to fill the void of knowledge about existence.

so does science.

 

[9sublime]

One works hard at living a good and moral life yet because they won't buy into a man made religious sect and all the theory and proselytizing that comes along with it... they're somehow not as deep or need a spiritual answer to everything thrust upon them.

A quote worthy of a famous historical figure.

 

[PLC1]

You don't have to be in any particular religious group to know right from wrong... good from bad... kindness from meanness. A person knows how they would want to be treated... right?

Yes, of course. Treating other people the way you want to be treated is from the Christian Bible. Other religions have other moral codes.

If you don't believe in god, why follow god's moral code?

 

[Here We Go]

Of course, people have the right not to believe in God. I am not a religeous fanatic but reading stuff like this hurts my soul. I feel sorry for those who do not believe in God but that's their business. How lost I would feel if I thought there was nothing after the "dirt nap".

 

[numinus]

Yes, of course. Treating other people the way you want to be treated is from the Christian Bible. Other religions have other moral codes.

If you don't believe in god, why follow god's moral code?

Because god's moral code is imbued with supreme reason which can be discerned by rational beings.

No one is obliged to follow a religious dogma when such dogma contradicts his own reason and conscience. Certainly not catholics, anyway.

 

[arbitor]

you know niminus, even though i totally disagree with you about capital punishment im glad to have your asistance in this debate.

you atheists are in a state of DENIAL. you just keep on lying to yourselves and saying that you dont get your moral codes from religion. there are NO morals in evolution and in science. if the morals are already written in your subconscious than isnt that just proof of a creator?

 

[PLC1]

you know niminus, even though i totally disagree with you about capital punishment im glad to have your asistance in this debate.

you atheists are in a state of DENIAL. you just keep on lying to yourselves and saying that you dont get your moral codes from religion. there are NO morals in evolution and in science. if the morals are already written in your subconscious than isnt that just proof of a creator?

I'm not an athiest (check my posts), and you have just articulated my point: Moral values are a religious concept.

Is it possible, then, to buy into the Christian value of the golden rule, while denying Christianity? I'm just asking.

 

[top gun]

Yes, of course. Treating other people the way you want to be treated is from the Christian Bible. Other religions have other moral codes.

If you don't believe in god, why follow god's moral code?

It's a which came first the chicken or the egg explanation.

I believe that man was able to understand what was right and wrong by how things felt when done to him or his. Religion was man's way to incorporate and ritualized these ideas.

Actually if you look at how such a wide & various range of religions started up all over the earth it is reasonable to conclude that "religion" was used to hold various groups or tribes together with a set of formalized rules almost like an early legal system. Plus it gave early man something every tribe would want over every competing tribe... God on their side... Christian v. Muslim etc.

So to answer your question directly. I don't see it as God's moral code. I see it as various religious sects taking what they knew was good and attributing it to God.