California Proposition 8

[Dawkinsrocks]

But chip isn't saying it is learned.

He is saying it is learned.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I have never said that homosexuality is learned.

Inculcation is a learning process, not a biological one.

I am not of any religious persuasion, and I've never indicated otherwise.

You don't have to indicate otherwise, it's obvious that you have been inculcated with religious dogma from birth.

I've presented the neuropsychological truth that homosexuality is unconsciouslly inculcated from damage incurred from exposure to dysfunction in family-of-origin and related dynamics.

This research has been shown to be flawed and is not accepted by the wider community of scientists and researchers.

That's not about myths. That's not about taboos. That's about reality.

Pretending that terms do not change meanings as human society evolves is a myth, homosexuality is an inculcated taboo, and neither one reperesents anything but a "personal" reality of yours.

And I have presented the definitive propriety argument that supports upholding Proposition 8.

You can polly-parrot Dawkinsrocks in your misery-loves-company kabal all you want, but your collective unprovoked ad hominems only reveal that you've lost the argument and you have nothing left but childish invectives.

It is highly likely, therefore, that your "dinosaur" comment was a projection.

Not much more needs to be said about definitive propriety or the sacredness of one word, it's a fallacy no matter how much you find it comforting. The dinosaur comment is an analogy, and an accurate one too. Childish invective? I don't think so.

 

[Sihouette]

lively thread...

what's wrong with working towards a Utopian society? I'm glad that you recognize my intent, but does that mean that you are working against a Utopian society? Why?~Mare

Because they don't and won't ever exist. The best we can do is work with the reality we have. That tends to be where my feet are planted anyway. Still have my genitals intact at least!

We are, like it or not, big apes that have opposable thumbs that allow us to manipulate things moreso than our other animal cousins. Apes grapple, they fight over resources, form troops and either groom or attack each other, depending on who they view is "outside" the norm (the troop). The situation in Iraq for example could be summated in a very succint and bucolic way by calling it "apes fighting over the last bunches of bananas on earth" (men fighting over control of the last significant oil reserves on earth).

A man once told me that men, all men, no matter what level of intellectual prowess they've acheived, with the possible exception of monks, are only into their acheivements, ultimately, to impress potential sexual partners and thereby "get laid", as often as they like. Just like their silverbacked cousins. And so, women, I've noticed, gather in groups and groom each other with one as the alpha and several betas at her heels with lesser subordinates gathering around altering their own personas to suit her whims.

And so on..

Utopia will never exist in a group of monkeys such that we are. So the best we can do is to understand ourselves, the way we learn, how we form societies, what are ulterior agendas are and work with those indelible aspects of ourselves.

It is to these ends that I discuss this homosexual issue, and issues of war, grappling and so on with such passion. It is because they matter. In the world of apes where sexuality and grappling for resources are the most fundamental and potent covert driving mechanisms of a given society, we'd do well to fully appraise each move to alter the norm of our "troop" in those departments.

After all, an unexamined life is not worth living. And I'm holding a microscope over the gay/marriage issue for exactly that reason. To shed light on where it comes from, what it is, and where it's likely to go. Then we can all make informed decisions that affect our "troop" in a permanent way. Generations have aspired to make human society more than just apes grappling. And generations have failed, always, because people are what they are: grappling great apes with hands. We are more than that too. But unfortunately we always fall back on that in spite of our best wishes..

 

[Sihouette]

Chip's "inculcation" is correctly appraised if occuring at a young enough age where the personality is still forming.

He cited ages at the oldest of four.

However, my theory suspects that the formative years go on until puberty, at least sexually speaking. By that time the person is more of an active player in his/her environment, and has had stored quite backlog of associative memories to certain stimuli. For instance, by that age s/he may have learned to associate the smell of cooking pasta with pleasant times (mom loved to cook pasta and was always in a good mood when she did) and so on..

By that age, if the child was molested by a same-sex person, and the experience was pleasureable, the adolescent would undoubtedly associate same-gender people as objects for sexual gratification from then out...particularly if the adolescent had negative experiences in other areas of interaction with the opposite gender. His/her fate would then be sealed, (homo) sexually speaking.

Or, if the adolescent has learned to associate only negative experiences with the opposite gender, sans pleasure sensations with the same gender via molestation, s/he may be averse to experiment sexually with the opposite gender and ultimately wind up venting potent adolescent sexuality with the same gender. Aversions usually continue through life, especially if they resulted from particularly horrific or psychologically traumatic conditions.

If the adolescent had nothing but tortuous associations with his own gender, while having sublime or pleasant ones with the opposite gender to such a contrast as to warp his developing persona, that person may call himself "transgender" and totally reject his own body parts that remind him of belonging to the gender he has such negative associations with.


Also, adolescents are at an age where they are desperately trying to grapple for a position in "the troop" (society). (see what understanding anthropology can help you with?). So if they view a certain set of behaviors as "the norm", after the usual period of defining individuality (challenging authority/the silverbacks in charge) by rebellion, the young adult will, statistically, fall back on the old social norm once he's carved a place for himself in the "tribe". That's why people, even rebels, always lament, "I'm just like my dad." or "I'm becoming my mother." It's the monkey in us doing this..

So we have several complex factors all putting pressure on an emerging individual from childhood, through adolescence and finally adulthood. Gay's argument is that we should ignore the causes of homosexuality and "just accept it". They even go beyond wilfull ignorance and want to perpetuate it throughout our culture by example, by normalizing the deviant sexual behavior within the "troop". Mare insinuates here, and other gays have as well, that "utopia" from their "troop" is equivalent to a gay pride parade. Other "troop" values have different ideas however.

And so on..

We decide as a society, as a "troop" what we want to perpetuate as normal social values. And we did this with prop 8. Unless someone is suggesting that the minority rule, or that we no longer, as americans, have the right to control our own destinies, then we'd better start coming to terms with the fact that when it comes to marriage, the hetero-compassion, political-correctness that gays have leaned so heavily in the past, has come to a screeching halt right at the line where the definitions of "normal" and "deviant" are lobbied to be muddied. And that line is marriage.

Elton John was right. Gays should've stopped while they were ahead. There is no reason for them to plead to be recognized as married outside of a smokescreened drive to recruit via "normalizing" the deviant behavior they neither want to understand themselves nor anyone else to shed light on.

 

[Chip]

Mare and Dawkinsrocks,

There's nothing more for me to say here to you.

I have told you the neuropsychological truth in a clear and concise manner.

I have presented the reigning definitive propriety support of Proposition 8.

You have both reached a point where it is all about denying obvious reality and issuing unjustified ad hominems in a blatant attempt to smear the character of those with whom you simply disagree.

Therefore I'm placing you on ignore in this thread until you can bring forth new information that makes rational common sense sans ad hominems, during which time I will continue to address others.

 

[top gun]

Sihouette;80585]Correct. I do not "know" that.

Well you really should try to understand that.

What I have done is illuminate the links between primate/human social learning, that are real, known and accepted by the scientific community, and the fact that homosexuality is a learned deviance, as many homosexuals themselves will even allude to.

No you haven't. All you've done is show that animals can be tricked into homosexual behavior... and I'm sure that is so. BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE THE JUMP FROM THAT TO... ALL HUMAN HOMOSEXUALITY IS LEARNED. That's ridiculous.

There are millions of cases where a person has felt they were gay from their earliest memories without any trauma and a good normal family life. They weren't tricked into it, they just always felt that way. It amazes me you are unable to comprehend that if someone can be born a hermaphrodite (dual sexes) certainly someone can be born with just the mental aspect of a gender not matching their body parts.

The third postulation, that homosexuals are pleading for homosexuality to become mainstream, and therefore produce more cruising opportunities for their deviance, is inferred.

However, it follows to reason that this is the net result of what will happen given the facts above...whether the attempt is conscious or subconscious on behalf of the homosexual community.

We greater majority, as custodians of reason, and sanity, have taken it upon ourselves to prevent this wilfull/inadvertent agenda from taking roots, growing and becoming part of the very fabric of our society...

As is our right within a democratic society that makes informed (not kneejerk) decisions that affect our collective destinies..At the very least, homosexuals as a group in large will admit that the origins of homosexuality are not fully understood (to them). So we, the majority, have taken it upon ourselves to "err" on the side of caution.

Society says homosexuality is not illegal nor is gay sex & cohabitation... so in other words you just refuse to answer my direct question and choose to just repeat the same false rhetoric.

That means you definitely lose the argument.

 

[Sihouette]

For the purposes of staying with the legal description we can say that a person born with external male genitalia is male. A person born with external female genitalia is female. In those cases it would be legal to marry the opposite gender. In the case of true hermaphroditism, with both sets of genitals present the individual may marry whichever gender is the opposite of how they have lived their life as being.

Seems simple to me. All other forms of sexual unions may not marry. Equally as simple. They can, apparently, form domestic partnerships with the same perks as marriage. This is enough to suffice.

The purpose of "marriage" is really a matter of semantics, isn't it? Society holding up two people as "married" is just a fancy way of saying "here's what we agree is normal sexuality between two people".

And we do that because we know knowledge and social mores are handed down generationally, that sexuality is a potent drive that can be manipulated after birth, and that "burgeoning" sexually-deviant cultures like San Francisco are what we want to hold as outside the norm of human culture. Not that they don't exist or deserve compassion, but that they be held outside the norm.

We have the right to uphold a framework for future generations to aspire to: the semantics of who constitutes "condoned sexual partners". Step outside the norm if that is what suits you. But don't teach it by example or otherwise to our future generations as "normal". Because it isn't. Sex is for creating offspring. We cannot in one breath tell Johnny to save his lungs from smoking cigarettes because that is a deviant use of the lungs and in the other breath tell him it's OK to get anal ruptures in the name of pleasure-seeking.

We have the right to set limits to what we hold as deviant for good and sound reasons.. Some of us have heard about the snowball effect. If not, just read Gay By The Bay lauded by The International Gay And Lesbian Review to get the feel for the snowball effect as it applies to acquired homosexuality within the confines of a deviant social mileau.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

lively thread..Because they don't and won't ever exist. The best we can do is work with the reality we have. That tends to be where my feet are planted anyway. Still have my genitals intact at least!

Wow, what a totally defeatist attitude, things are bad and they cannot get any better. I have a dream... I think people are perfectable, that God made us perfectable if we strive for it.

At least my intellect is still intact. It is telling that you have such a fixation on genitals--especially OTHER people's genitals. Perhaps the incessant focus on animal genitals has skewed your perception?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Chip's "inculcation" is correctly appraised if occuring at a young enough age where the personality is still forming.

He cited ages at the oldest of four.

However, my theory suspects that the formative years go on until puberty, at least sexually speaking.

So, a child taken at birth who has their genitals rearranged for medical reasons, raised as the opposite sex, given the proper hormone treatement, and inculcated by parents and church will grow up to be the gender assigned by parents and doctors at birth?

I know of two cases of this, one was an identical twin boy surgically damaged and reassigned, raised as a girl, and followed throughout the process by doctors. (Money & Tucker, 1975, and Milton Diamond & H. Keith Sigmundson, 1977). Didn't work, by age 16 "she" was demanding to be treated as male in line with "her" feelings about herself. If it was just learned behavior this shouldn't have worked.

The other case is one I know of personally in which a child was born with both a penis and a vagina, one undescended testicle and one underdeveloped ovary. Her parents, being fundamentalist Christians, desired a son and had her vagina sewed up at birth. They raised this child as a son and never told "him" anything about his history. In Junior High School when "he" started growing breasts the parents beat "him" and demanded that he remain a boy. The abuse was staggering, when I met this person at the age of 28 she had only one functioning kidney, no front teeth, and a permanently injured back from the beatings. She had always felt like a girl, but never mentioned it until she started developing breasts. Away from her parents she got medical help, had her vagina reopened, got counseling, and tried to build a life for herself. She died of leukemia a couple of years later. If anyone was ever inculcated it was this person, but she still knew who she was inside her own head depite the programming.

You really should read more science.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Mare and Dawkinsrocks,

There's nothing more for me to say here to you.

I have told you the neuropsychological truth in a clear and concise manner.

I have presented the reigning definitive propriety support of Proposition 8.

You have both reached a point where it is all about denying obvious reality and issuing unjustified ad hominems in a blatant attempt to smear the character of those with whom you simply disagree.

Therefore I'm placing you on ignore in this thread until you can bring forth new information that makes rational common sense sans ad hominems, during which time I will continue to address others.

Good for you, Chip, ignor-ance is the first Christian value. There is nothing ad hominem about your refusal to read scientific sources that contradict your position. The basis of ignorance is "ignore", and that is what's happening here when one refuses to even look at competing information from reliable scientific research.

 

[Sihouette]

I think people are perfectable, that God made us perfectable if we strive for it. ~Mare

Careful, speaking for God could be addicting...you'll invite the christian wingnuts in..lol...

The other case is one I know of personally in which a child was born with both a penis and a vagina, one undescended testicle and one underdeveloped ovary. Her parents, being fundamentalist Christians, desired a son and had her vagina sewed up at birth. They raised this child as a son and never told "him" anything about his history. In Junior High School when "he" started growing breasts the parents beat "him" and demanded that he remain a boy. The abuse was staggering, when I met this person at the age of 28 she had only one functioning kidney, no front teeth, and a permanently injured back from the beatings. She had always felt like a girl, but never mentioned it until she started developing breasts. Away from her parents she got medical help, had her vagina reopened, got counseling, and tried to build a life for herself. She died of leukemia a couple of years later. If anyone was ever inculcated it was this person, but she still knew who she was inside her own head depite the programming.

This case really does make it very difficult to sift out why this person felt female or male. Clearly it was both. The subsequent abuse is, as in all cases, unforgivable. Again, it would be very very difficult to come to a definite conclusion on where the gender identity fixated.

Transexuals aren't always this way though. In your case I do suspect an acquired loathing for your own gender, coupled with feeling empathy or projecting idenification with females more than your own gender. A good therapist would've helped you through this. Your example is not a true transexual. Your example is one of a hermaphrodite that apparently had more of a tendency to feel female, which is totally acceptable. Choosing her female genitalia already in place and then going on to live as a woman would've been the thing to do with this hermaphrodite. In that case marriage would be allowed in my model anyway, to a man. You aren't a hermaphrodite so all that can be said is that you're "bucking the system". And that is deviant. It isn't my system. It is God's system...you know, God, the spiritual entity you brought up?

Speaking of God, didn't God make you a male? Then you changed God's will? Isn't that a bit, omnipotent of you??

And on a spirtual theme...did it ever occur to you that you may have been put in a male body to show that not all men must adhere to the macho roles you admit that you loathe? You seem to be fixated on roles. You mentioned wanting to dress up in pretty things to feel female. That goes to show that you really don't understand "female", but instead have convinced yourself that roles foisted by society determine what is "female"...and you bought that hook line and sinker. Maybe role-bucking within your God-given gender was your purpose here and you bucked it. What a waste.

I am female and I feel very feminine when I bleed, sweat and strained in childbirth..and the milk staining my shirts when the babies cried...bucking firewood on a fresh Fall day, wearing my loafers and taking the dogs for a run, tipping whiskey at the bar and yes, shopping for new sweaters and blouses... Whatever strikes my fancy. I've always felt sorry for men in that they are definitely more pinned down when it comes to foisted inventories of what constitutes "maleness". I had a boyfriend once, a polynesian man, who walked around in the comfort of our home in a "lala"...a beautiful flowered wrap around skirt/sarang that came about mid-calf. He never wiggled his hips like a girl but was very proud and strong in his "lala". He wasn't afraid in the US, in that little redneck town when his buddies came over and he was in his lala. They knew that if any of them gave him crap about it, he'd sock them in the nose for good measure.

He bucked roles foisted on him and people respected him for it. And he still had a penis. Believe me! And he knew how to use it...lol...

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Careful, speaking for God could be addicting...you'll invite the christian wingnuts in

So now you're trashing Christians too?

This case really does make it very difficult to sift out why this person felt female or male. Clearly it was both. Again, it would be very very difficult to come to a definite conclusion on where the gender identity fixated.

Transexuals aren't always this way though.

Can you demonstrate the validity of the comment you just made? Got proof?

Your position is that it's all or nothing, a person is male or female or evenly in the center like my friend above? There are no shades in between? Can you support this idea with anything? This seems to suggest black and white thinking again, doesn't it? Don't you think it might be possible for a person to be born with a penis and ovaries, a vagina and vestigial penis and testicles? How about a fairly male body with testosterone receptors and a fairly female brain with estrogen receptors? How is it that brain autopsies show that males (gay and straight) have a comparatively large bed nucleus of the stria terminalus while Male to Female transsexuals have the smaller female bed nucleus?

I note that you didn't respond to the one scientifically examined and documented case of attempted gender change by parents and doctors that failed.

In your case I do suspect an acquired loathing for your own gender, coupled with feeling empathy or projecting idenification with females more than your own gender. A good therapist would've helped you through this.

And you continue to ignore the fact that I had many years of counseling before changing my gender presentation, the psychologists, psychiatrists, and the medical doctors all agreed that I was a classic example of a MtF transsexual.

Your example is not a true transexual.

You know what a "true transsexual" is? Do tell, and how do you know this?

Your example is one of a hermaphrodite that apparently had more of a tendency to feel female, which is totally acceptable. Choosing her female genitalia already in place and then going on to live as a woman would've been the thing to do with this hermaphrodite. In that case marriage would be allowed in my model anyway, to a man.

Whoa, she had a penis too, and not a vestigial one either. She would have had to have surgery before any heterosexual man would marry her. Intesexed people (hermaphrodite is archaic) have both sets of external sex organs. Transsexual means across the sexual borders, it doesn't mean hermaphroditic. Intersexed people come in many variations, not just one, it's a condition of varying degrees.

You aren't a hermaphrodite so all that can be said is that you're "bucking the system". And that is deviant. It isn't my system. It is God's system...you know, God, the spiritual entity you brought up?

Who are you to speak about how God made me? You've never even seen me. I am just the way God made me, somewhere inbetween male and female, born with a birth defect that YOU don't think I have the right to correct because God wanted me to be half and half? Christians fought tooth and nail to prevent doctors from fixing club feet and cleft palates too, they said God made those people that way and He wanted them to stay like that. You are arguing a 200 year old position that you apply selectively ONLY to people YOU think are "deviant". Sorry, you don't speak for God or for the medical or scientific community, nor do you speak for me.

Speaking of God, didn't God make you a male? Then you changed God's will? Isn't that a bit, omnipotent of you??

A penis makes a man? You have a very shallow definition. God made me with a female brain complete with estrogen receptors and NO testosterone receptors, I function best from the female perspective, with estrogen in my system. Hormone receptors develop in the body during gestation, we are born with whatever receptors develop, it's not something for which you can be inculcated (see my previous post about the boy made into a girl who rebelled at age 16 and transitioned back to living as a male--despite the fact that a doctor's error had cut off his penis). A penis does not make a man.

And on a spirtual theme...did it ever occur to you that you may have been put in a male body to show that not all men must adhere to the macho roles you admit that you loathe? You seem to be fixated on roles.

The crazy thing is that you ask questions that you think are new and profound. What do you think I did in all those years of counseling? You don't have any idea about what's involved in this process. If a male is forced to live as a female or vice versa, they will come to abhor what they are forced to do. You have no concept that will allow you to understand this if your body and your brain are sex/gender congruent. Let me make an analogy, how would you feel if society forced you to live as a lesbian? (I'm not assuming anything about your sexual preferences, I'm just trying to make a point so fill in which ever gender you are not attracted to.) It's the force that required me to live for most of my adult life as something I was not, coupled with the depression and hopelessness which is a brain chemistry response to cross-gender hormones flooding the brain. It's a biochemical process, hormones and receptor sites in brain.

You mentioned wanting to dress up in pretty things to feel female. That goes to show that you really don't understand "female", but instead have convinced yourself that roles foisted by society determine what is "female"...and you bought that hook line and sinker. Maybe role-bucking within your God-given gender was your purpose here and you bucked it. What a waste.

Again, you assume that I did this on a whim, that I'm not only stupid, but deliberately deviant with malicious intent. Why do you think that?

I lived the male role because I was raised that way, it didn't make any sense to me, I'm not interested in macho competition, sexual rapacity, dominant behavior--all of which are hallmarks of male behavior in our culture. (Note that I didn't say they SHOULD be, I just said they were.) Males think differently than females, I never could wrap my head around male thought patterns, but female thought patterns always worked for me. The things I like about being female are ALL of the things that women get to do, not just the pretty clothes. I take the good with the bad, I am in much more danger now that I have transitioned, my life has been threatened, men treat me as if I have lost 30 IQ points, and people like you continue to second-guess my actions despite not knowing anything about the process. Why do you take such a god-like and contemptous view of me?

The best part of tranition was getting rid of the depression and hopelessness that I had lived with for more than 3 decades, the second best part was getting shut of the endless male sex drive. Third on the list would be the camaraderie between women, men are in constant competition, but women will cooperate with each other in a way that is foreign to men. More women have gone out of their way to help me than I can remember, over and over again a complete stranger would help me with my presentation or give me advice on clothes or deportment. I've never had a woman give me grief in person--a few in writing like you do--but never in person.

From a philosophical perspective, have you ever thought that God made me this way to help break down the stereotypes forced on us by a culture deeply embedded in the gender binary? That makes as much sense as your idea.

I am female and I feel very feminine when I bleed, sweat and strained in childbirth..and the milk staining my shirts when the babies cried...bucking firewood on a fresh Fall day, wearing my loafers and taking the dogs for a run, tipping whiskey at the bar and yes, shopping for new sweaters and blouses... Whatever strikes my fancy. I've always felt sorry for men in that they are definitely more pinned down when it comes to foisted inventories of what constitutes "maleness". I had a boyfriend once, a polynesian man, who walked around in the comfort of our home in a "lala"...a beautiful flowered wrap around skirt/sarang that came about mid-calf. He never wiggled his hips like a girl but was very proud and strong in his "lala". He wasn't afraid in the US, in that little redneck town when his buddies came over and he was in his lala. They knew that if any of them gave him crap about it, he'd sock them in the nose for good measure.

He bucked roles foisted on him and people respected him for it. And he still had a penis. Believe me! And he knew how to use it...lol...

Why is it okay for him to buck the roles, but not for me? I deliberately gave up my role as one of the lords of creation-- a MAN--to become what our culture sees as a 2nd class citizen. Not even 2nd class really, just look at how you treat me, I'm a deviant, not deserving of equality with the rest of humankind. Would you like to live that way he did, having to beat others physically to prove you femininity? Don't confuse being comfortable with one's gender role with being the victim of an estrogen-fueled brain in a testosterone-fueled body--they are worlds apart. Why does this bother you so much? Why do you come on like I'm an idiot when it's obvious that I have lived with this all my life and have studied it in depth for more than a decade? Why do you feel that you have to attack me, call me deviant, heap scorn on me, and treat me like sh1t? What do you get from that?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I am female and I feel very feminine when I bleed, sweat and strained in childbirth..and the milk staining my shirts when the babies cried...bucking firewood on a fresh Fall day, wearing my loafers and taking the dogs for a run, tipping whiskey at the bar and yes, shopping for new sweaters and blouses... Whatever strikes my fancy. I've always felt sorry for men in that they are definitely more pinned down when it comes to foisted inventories of what constitutes "maleness". I had a boyfriend once, a polynesian man, who walked around in the comfort of our home in a "lala"...a beautiful flowered wrap around skirt/sarang that came about mid-calf. He never wiggled his hips like a girl but was very proud and strong in his "lala". He wasn't afraid in the US, in that little redneck town when his buddies came over and he was in his lala. They knew that if any of them gave him crap about it, he'd sock them in the nose for good measure.

He bucked roles foisted on him and people respected him for it. And he still had a penis. Believe me! And he knew how to use it...lol...

There you are, this paragraph with the bolded quote says what I have been saying. How would YOU feel to be forced to live as a man if you felt EXACTLY AS YOU DO NOW? Imagine living 50 years fighting with other men, doing all the macho crap to prove you're not queer. I learned to fight early and well to protect myself, I learned to pretend to be a man, I was just as tough and dumb as the best of the good ol' boys, but I didn't want to be, I knew it was a lie. In light of your quote above, how is it that you seem so lacking in empathy or compassion? How can you possibly assume that I did this for some trivial reason when you wouldn't do this at gunpoint?

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

I think Silo and Chip copy their posts from 'Klan pseudo-science monthly' a document aimed at sounding official whilst simultaneously denouncing homosexuality etc.

That is certainly what their posts sound like.

Lots of unsupportable arcane waffle masquerading as fact.

 

[Sihouette]

Lots of people oppose and support homosexuality for lots of reasons good and bad. Your comment, once again dawk, borders on ad hominem.

The bottom line is that I'm making good points and you are demonizing me to try to "win" this debate. It's all you have left. And it's a reflection of how well I'm doing, the more you resort to it.


The nazis/klan wouldn't have me. I'm too ethnic for their "purity"..lol...

Plus, I'm not a "christian"...the religion of those groups...

Please attempt to stick to the topic and rebut only with substance geared towards same. And occasionally, back up your stance with sources...not too much to ask really..