California Proposition 8

[top gun]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justinian
Shut your goddamn face you stupid silly alien atheist.

There ya go! Not a whole lot of redeeming social value to some of those old Justinian posts huh?

I was just joking about banning... but what a good point you make!

 

[top gun]

Sihouette;78672]You know, you play pretty fast and loose with the word "bigot". I suppose then that your stance towards NAMBLA members, calling them "nut-bars" and dismissing their "cause" with the wave of your judgemental hand can also be called "bigoted" under the same sweeping umbrella?

Why would that be? What NAMBLA promotes is illegal and involves the sexual abuase of children. Is it not YOU that is working hard to draw some comparison to that and the totally legal act of ADULT gay people wanting to be married?

That's like comparing ice cream to a Ford Mustang.

Really? Why not? It's all about "love", right?

You see adults being married as the same as child sexual abuse... really?

Why do gays parade as a straight couple? What mixed up thoughts go on in their heads? Why is one always more butch and one always more fem in a couple?

First sentence: When gay couples present themselves as straight couples I'm guessin' it's because they want to limit the personal attacks on them by people like... let's see... who would that be... OH yeah... YOU!

Second sentence: OK now we all know that you've met very few gay couples. Because if you really knew many then you know the butch to fem aspect is all over the board (the word "always" tripped ya up Siho).

Because in their minds they are seeking a hetero relationship, only their wires got crossed in puberty and they were conditioned to associate the strong instinctive sexual drive with the same sex instead of the opposite one, yet they mimic hetero relationships with their affect and garb.

You poor poor pop psychology thing. You really are lost on this subject aren't ya? It's not about the "relationship" in the least. It's about how they feel "they" are.

To put it in farm terms that you might understand better. You're putting the cart before the horse. The relationships depend on the identity they have of themselves... not the other way around.

It is an imbalance, a skew. It's not their fault and we shouldn't descriminate against them in any other area EXCEPT where they try to get society to officially condone their situation as normal, as in marriage.

That's like saying farmers shouldn't be discriminated against for having sex with sheep. If it's wrong (illegal) it's wrong and absolutely should be discriminated against.

Where you repeatedly loose this argument is that being gay is not at all in anyway illegal.

The "instinctive" reference I made in my previous post is that most people see the butch/fem thing and realize on a visceral level that something is screwy and will vote from that angle. They innately sense the hypocrisy. Apparently adolescents don't lose the bloodhound sniff for hypocrisy. It just goes underground when they become adults and rules from the subconscious instead..

Yeah there's something "screwy" alright. When totally unqualified people state personal homophobic opinions as psychological fact... that kinda comes to mind as a red flag.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

You know, you play pretty fast and loose with the word "bigot". I suppose then that your stance towards NAMBLA members, calling them "nut-bars" and dismissing their "cause" with the wave of your judgemental hand can also be called "bigoted" under the same sweeping umbrella?

Really? Why not? It's all about "love", right?

Why do gays parade as a straight couple? What mixed up thoughts go on in their heads? Why is one always more butch and one always more fem in a couple?

Because in their minds they are seeking a hetero relationship, only their wires got crossed in puberty and they were conditioned to associate the strong instinctive sexual drive with the same sex instead of the opposite one, yet they mimic hetero relationships with their affect and garb.

It is an imbalance, a skew. It's not their fault and we shouldn't descriminate against them in any other area EXCEPT where they try to get society to officially condone their situation as normal, as in marriage.

The "instinctive" reference I made in my previous post is that most people see the butch/fem thing and realize on a visceral level that something is screwy and will vote from that angle. They innately sense the hypocrisy. Apparently adolescents don't lose the bloodhound sniff for hypocrisy. It just goes underground when they become adults and rules from the subconscious instead..

Being unable to support any of your wild claims such as a major in biology and legalized child molesting, you have returned to personal attacks to divert attention.

I'm judgmental for calling NAMBLA folks nut-bars? You are NOT judgmental for saying that all gay and transpeople are child molestors?

You better hope that you own children don't read this thread, they'll see through you hypocrisy and disingenuos claims in a New York minute.

 

[Sihouette]

Why would that be? What NAMBLA promotes is illegal and involves the sexual abuase of children.~Top Gun

Your response to my question to Mare about where he draws the line on prejudice.

Now, think of this: homosexuality was illegal also until relatively recently and involves unnatural sexual acts as well, and it's illicit implied underground is the attempt to increase its prevalance in society via the stamp of legitimacy of "marriage"...thus appealing to our youth as "normal" and something to be aspired to.

Just a longer-reaching and better-veiled arm of inappropriate sexual contact of minors.

So when Mare lashes out at NAMBLA for their "nut-barism" I nearly have to bite the end of my tongue to keep from laughing at the irony..

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Your response to my question to Mare about where he draws the line on prejudice.

Now, think of this: homosexuality was illegal also until relatively recently and involves unnatural sexual acts as well, and it's illicit implied underground is the attempt to increase its prevalance in society via the stamp of legitimacy of "marriage"...thus appealing to our youth as "normal" and something to be aspired to.

Just a longer-reaching and better-veiled arm of inappropriate sexual contact of minors.

So when Mare lashes out at NAMBLA for their "nut-barism" I nearly have to bite the end of my tongue to keep from laughing at the irony..

Lashed out? You asked my opinion of the 11 people who wish break the law and molest children, I said they were nut-bars. Trying to manufacture a "lashing out" from my comments is just another figment of your fear-driven agenda. And how could any "lashing out" be different from what you have been doing to all of us on this thread?

On this thread YOU are the only one continually pushing child molesting, everyone is else is discussing relationships between consenting adults. Over and over you keep making desperate claims and accusations that you cannot support or prove. In most places you would be called a "liar" but that's not allowed on this discussion site they tell me, so I won't call you one.

Oh, and since you don't have a major in biology, I suppose you don't know the difference between "prejudice" and "bias". Look it up before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

 

[Sihouette]

You keep trying to attact my experience and credibility as a smokescreen. It's pretty transparent; and out of just sheer embarassment for you I'll ask you to consider your own credibility when you try to do this to divert the subject at hand.

Again, it shows weak debating skills, or a weak argument.

Which one is it in your case? I'm going to say both.

You know there are more members of NAMBLA than some official tally you read. Let's look at the differences between NAMBLA's attempt at normalizing and gay's (successful thusfar) attempts at normalizing and those normalizing effects on society..

Law enforcement officials and mental health professionals say that while NAMBLA's membership numbers are small, the group has a dangerous ripple effect through the Internet by sanctioning the behavior of those who would abuse children. [ah, the long arm of social "legitimacy" is the best recruiter one could buy..]

"A lot of people who commit sexual crimes against children won't believe it is wrong," said Gregg Michel, a San Diego psychologist who interviews sex offenders for Superior Court sentencings. "An organization like this basically says it is not."

San Diego police Sgt. Dave Jones, who oversees a group of investigators working on Internet crimes against children, says NAMBLA's Web site often pops up in computers on which they find child pornography.

Saturday, the FBI arrested three NAMBLA members at Harbor Island as they waited for a boat that undercover agents told them would sail to Ensenada for a sex retreat over Valentine's Day with boys as young as 9.

A San Diego federal judge denied bail for them yesterday.

The FBI said four NAMBLA members were arrested in a Los Angeles marina where they also planned to set sail to the bogus rendezvous.

The seven men represent a cross-section of America: a Dallas dentist, a Pittsburgh special-education teacher, a South Carolina substitute teacher, a New Mexico handyman, a Chicago flight attendant who is also a psychologist and two Florida men, a worker at a paper company and a personal trainer.

A Fullerton chiropractor who was also an assistant pastor at his church was arrested on child-pornography charges as part of the sting, and bail was set at $100,000.

He admitted taking an Encinitas boy to Balboa Park and molesting him, the FBI said in court documents. Prosecutors have not charged him in connection with those allegations.

Friends, relatives and co-workers of the men expressed shock at the arrests, but the FBI said in court papers that most of the men told the undercover agent they had been sexually involved with children in the past, including boys they met through the Internet and others abroad.

The FBI says at least one of the men is a member of the group's national leadership, a second organized the group's national convention last year and a third said he had been a member since the 1980s...

..NAMBLA is based in New York City and San Francisco.

The organization's sexual advocacy is protected by the First Amendment.

"Everyone has the right to assemble and espouse whatever belief they want," said Dan Dzwilewski, head of the FBI's San Diego office.

Dzwilewski said undercover agents got involved not by targeting NAMBLA, but through a molestation investigation. Later, he said, "we knew we were interfering in planned criminal activity."

On its Web site, NAMBLA says it opposes abuse and coercion of young people and does not advocate illegal activity.

It also says children should have the right to have sex with older men and that such relationships are "benevolent." The 26-year-old organization wants to overturn statutory rape laws and free molesters from prison, and encourages members to send Christmas cards to jailed molesters...

..Critics say NAMBLA's public face hides a network of child molesters who trade seduction techniques and child pornography and organize overseas trips for illicit sex.

"It is, in fact, a trade school for pedophiles," ..

..Child molesters join organizations such as NAMBLA to meet others like themselves and gain confirmation they are not alone, said Jones, the San Diego police sergeant.

"They don't see that they're doing anything wrong," he said. "These are intelligent, well-educated, high-functioning people, but they've got this desire to involve themselves with children." ...

..Membership costs $35 a year, according to the NAMBLA Web site. Prison inmates can join for free and get a subscription to the monthly newsletter that includes articles such as "Is Harry Potter Gay?" and "Letter from a Twelve-Year-Old."

The organization links itself to the gay-rights movement, but mainstream gay organizations disavow such a parallel... [once the door is opened...]

..NAMBLA holds annual national conferences and monthly meetings around the country. It made headlines in San Francisco 12 years ago when a television station discovered a local chapter meeting monthly in a public library.

"There are bylaws," a Virginia police detective who infiltrated the group said. "It's just a well-run little organization."

Among topics discussed, attorney Gillen said in court papers, is how to start a relationship with a boy without drawing suspicion by parents and law enforcement and how to avoid getting caught...

..About 10 years ago, NAMBLA counted about 1,100 members, said Fairfax County, Va., detective Tom Polhemus, who went undercover and joined the organization's governing board.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050218/news_1n18manboy.html

So ten years ago from 2005 (nearly 14 years ago) there were 1,100 official members and probably ten times that amount in unofficial members afraid to list their names. That's a little more than 11.

And I'm trying to see how NAMBLA's attempts to normalize this tweak on sexuality is vastly different from homosexual's attempting to normalize theirs via the stamp of social legitimacy "marriage". I'm having trouble finding clear and concise markers of that crucial difference?

Anyone?

 

[Pidgey]

Seems like an unspoken conflict lurks beneath the surface here. One contention primarily seems to be that all or most deviation from the natural use of the installed visible hardware is due to software modifications during the later operating system installation process. The other contention is that there can be installed hardware and firmware mismatching that renders some operating system configuration options unavailable.

The big underlying (nearly) metaphysical question is whether or not successive generations would suffer increasingly diverse hardware, firmware and software mismatching if errors in manufacturing replication are allowed to be expressed and/or encouraged.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

You keep trying to attact my experience and credibility as a smokescreen. It's pretty transparent; and out of just sheer embarassment for you I'll ask you to consider your own credibility when you try to do this to divert the subject at hand.

Again, it shows weak debating skills, or a weak argument.

Which one is it in your case? I'm going to say both.

You know there are more members of NAMBLA than some official tally you read. Let's look at the differences between NAMBLA's attempt at normalizing and gay's (successful thusfar) attempts at normalizing and those normalizing effects on society..

So ten years ago from 2005 (nearly 14 years ago) there were 1,100 official members and probably ten times that amount in unofficial members afraid to list their names. That's a little more than 11.

And I'm trying to see how NAMBLA's attempts to normalize this tweak on sexuality is vastly different from homosexual's attempting to normalize theirs via the stamp of social legitimacy "marriage". I'm having trouble finding clear and concise markers of that crucial difference?

Anyone?

You're giving me grief because I haven't kept up on the stats of a child molestor group? I don't keep up much on the American Nazi Party either. Nor the Ku Klux Klan. You are the only one here with a fixation on child molesting, and me thinks thou doth protest too much. Have you got something going on in your life that keeps this issue in the forefront of your mind all the time? What happened to you? What did you do? Where does this irrational fear/hatred come from?

Again, here you are making a specious "guilt by association" connection that ONLY YOU believe in. The gay people say it's not true, I say it's not true, the American Psychological Association says it's not true, every single professional psychiatric and psychological organization says it's not true, but you keep on saying it in the hopes that you can frighten other people as much as you are. Pedophiles like children, male and female, it's not something that can be confined to just one sexual orientation--but you are too afraid to accept the truth.

Gay people want to make it legal for all consenting adults to marry and share equality under the law like the US Constitution says. You say that this isn't true, you say that they are all liars and child molestors, but you don't have any proof of your wild claims.

You didn't major in biology, there are no places in the US where child molesting is legal, your ancient research papers and your veterinarian articles are not proof of anything but you total ignorance of the subject about which you are speaking. No one puts out the amount of time and energy promoting hate that you have on this thread without being a raging bigot. The word bigot means someone who is ignorant and fearful, that's you, Siho.

I'm sorry for you because of your pathetic attempts to find a way to prove the validity of your hate and fear, it must be a very uncomfortable way to live. And don't think for a moment that your children won't eventually see through you.

 

[Pidgey]

You're giving me grief because I haven't kept up on the stats of a child molestor group? I don't keep up much on the American Nazi Party either. Nor the Ku Klux Klan.

What's wrong with the Koo Koo Klucks?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Seems like an unspoken conflict lurks beneath the surface here. One contention primarily seems to be that all or most deviation from the natural use of the installed visible hardware is due to software modifications during the later operating system installation process. The other contention is that there can be installed hardware and firmware mismatching that renders some operating system configuration options unavailable.

The big underlying (nearly) metaphysical question is whether or not successive generations would suffer increasingly diverse hardware, firmware and software mismatching if errors in manufacturing replication are allowed to be expressed and/or encouraged.

If this were a problem, then cultures where gay and trans people were accepted should show the kind of massive growth in numbers and destruction of their societies that has been predicted by the likes of Siho. There is no historical evidence of this ever happening. Sodom and Gamorrah don't count because they were not destroyed for homosexual behavior, but for lack of hopitality according to the Bible--but of course you can dismiss the Bible because it's mostly myths anyway.

The other part of this is that homosexual behaviors are widespread in the animal kingdom and we all know that 1) animals don't make moral choices 2) no animal group ever studied died out because of homosexual behaviors and 3) anyone wishing to research the variety of animal/human sexual behaviors can find a mountain of evidence to show that Siho's contentions are NOT supported by modern science.

I'm intrigued by the reaction of people to the sources I post, to the best of my knowledge no one has ever gone to one of those sources and examined it. No one has ever come back to any thread on which I've posted and mentioned or argued with any of my sources. Over and over again people have done the Siho-trick of denying the validity of my sources without examining them at all. I suppose it's important to protect one's ignorance. I looked up the sources that Siho posted, that's why I knew that John Bailey's work was actually diametrically opposed to Siho's contentions.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

What's wrong with the Koo Koo Klucks?

I've never been fond of lynchings.

 

[Pidgey]

I've never been fond of lynchings.

They're less violent than what's on television...

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

They're less violent than what's on television...

TV is mostly pretend, lynchings required someone to die.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

There is too much verbiage on this thread.

Here's the deal.

Denying gay people the right to marriage is bigotry and inequality.

It is just as bad as racism.

And it needs the same treatment.

So stop it now.

Stop the discrimination.

In 20 years those disciminating will look like the klan do now

 

[fj1200]

Poor homos, they are so obsessed and consumed with their demented thoughts of just "needing" to be naughty. It seems no one is there anymore to tell them that they are sick. The media et al only parrots that the queer should "give in" to their unnatural urges because that is who they are.

I find it interesting that drug addicts have now adopted the homosexual PR campaign i.e. "we're not demented, we just "need" the drugs to "medicate"...we don't have a "problem" with addiction, this is just who we are.