Buy From China

[Andy]

What ignorant nonsense.

That's exactly what I'm reading in your post. Complete ignorant nonsense. You know NOTHING.

From wiki:

As one of the key tools used by the People's Republic of China (PRC) government to direct foreign investment into mainland China, the Encouraged Industry Catalogue is significant in international trade with mainland China. It classifies various industries into the four groups which are Encouraged, Permitted, Restricted and Prohibited which has subsequent effects on foreign firms wishing to operate in such sectors.

What does this have to do with the economic model? NOTHING!

Encouraged industries generally receive favourable tax treatment whilst those in the Permitted category are treated on a quite neutral basis. If an industry is restricted, foreign investment is usually limited to a minority shareholding in a joint venture whilst Prohibited industries cannot have any form of foreign investment at all.

What has this to do with the economic model?! NOTHING!!

Major state industries are iron, steel, coal, machine building, light industrial products, armaments, and textiles. These industries completed a decade of reform (1979-1989) with little substantial management change. The 1999 industrial census revealed that there were 7,930,000 industrial enterprises at the end of 1999; total employment in state-owned industrial enterprises was about 24 million. The automobile industry has grown rapidly since 2000, as is the petrochemical industry. Machinery and electronic products have become China's main exports.

Industry and construction produced 53.1% of China’s gross domestic product (GDP) in 2005. Industry (including mining, manufacturing, construction, and power) contributed 52.9% of GDP in 2004 and occupied 22.5% of the workforce.

This disputes NOTHING of what I said. Not one single solitary thing. You have not made ONE SINGLE POINT IN THE WHOLE POST!

Your air-conditioning company is merely a flea riding on the back of china's economic juggernaut. Any flea can pretend he is the dog all he wishes but we all know different.

Unbelievable. You are so completely ignorant, you are joke. You spent a whole post saying NOTHING.

Tell me... did anything in that web site indicate the percentage of industries under private ownership? NO!! That is the whole point! CHINA IS SELLING THEIR STATE RUN INDUSTRIES TO PRIVATE CITIZEN! Wake up! You are the only idiot still thinking China is not Capitalist!

China's Capitalist Revolution
Welcome to Capitalist China
Capitalist China

And I can list dozens on dozens more!!

Even better, a socialist support who wrote this article on Capitalism Restoration. How funny, while you are here claiming China's economy is an example of Socialism working, some are complaining that they need to end the Capitalistic economy, and go back to Socialism.

Everyone has this figured out but you. Wake up! Figure it out!

Further, I know more about this than you think.
I know several people in China as we speak. They are there for one reason... Capitalism. My uncle is a Electrical Engineer, he's working for a PRIVATE COMPANY... in China... he's Capitalizing on it too. My best friend's wife's Father is a Chemical Engineer that works for a very large company, that even has US Military contracts. He is in China... Investing into a PRIVATE CORPORATION IN CHINA.... The corporation that I worked for 2 years ago, was, and has, opened a branch in China. GASP! An evil Capitalistic corporation making profit in the heart of China?! Yes! Because they have a Capitalist economy there!

The company I work for NOW is making contracts with a PRIVATE auto manufacture in China!

That one single company, Broad Air Conditioning, was simply to make the point. It is one of THOUSANDS of examples. MILLIONS of examples. Note: No one is going to a public state owned corporation. NO ONE. Because they are BROKE! The state run socialist industries are failing... that's why they are being sold off.

Go learn something. You are wasting time being this ignorant.

 

[numinus]

That's exactly what I'm reading in your post. Complete ignorant nonsense. You know NOTHING.



What does this have to do with the economic model? NOTHING!



What has this to do with the economic model?! NOTHING!!



This disputes NOTHING of what I said. Not one single solitary thing. You have not made ONE SINGLE POINT IN THE WHOLE POST!



Unbelievable. You are so completely ignorant, you are joke. You spent a whole post saying NOTHING.

Tell me... did anything in that web site indicate the percentage of industries under private ownership? NO!! That is the whole point! CHINA IS SELLING THEIR STATE RUN INDUSTRIES TO PRIVATE CITIZEN! Wake up! You are the only idiot still thinking China is not Capitalist!

China's Capitalist Revolution
Welcome to Capitalist China
Capitalist China

And I can list dozens on dozens more!!

Even better, a socialist support who wrote this article on Capitalism Restoration. How funny, while you are here claiming China's economy is an example of Socialism working, some are complaining that they need to end the Capitalistic economy, and go back to Socialism.

Everyone has this figured out but you. Wake up! Figure it out!

Further, I know more about this than you think.
I know several people in China as we speak. They are there for one reason... Capitalism. My uncle is a Electrical Engineer, he's working for a PRIVATE COMPANY... in China... he's Capitalizing on it too. My best friend's wife's Father is a Chemical Engineer that works for a very large company, that even has US Military contracts. He is in China... Investing into a PRIVATE CORPORATION IN CHINA.... The corporation that I worked for 2 years ago, was, and has, opened a branch in China. GASP! An evil Capitalistic corporation making profit in the heart of China?! Yes! Because they have a Capitalist economy there!

The company I work for NOW is making contracts with a PRIVATE auto manufacture in China!

That one single company, Broad Air Conditioning, was simply to make the point. It is one of THOUSANDS of examples. MILLIONS of examples. Note: No one is going to a public state owned corporation. NO ONE. Because they are BROKE! The state run socialist industries are failing... that's why they are being sold off.

Go learn something. You are wasting time being this ignorant.

I can't help it if you are simply bone-headed to understand.

The economic aspect that chinese socialism is addressing is OWNERSHIP.

The entire process of economic development in the prc started in the late 70's the moment they made an honest re-evaluation of their centralized and isolationist form of socialism -- the fruits of which is only being realized lately.

A market-oriented form of socialism isn't possible without the necessary INFRASTRUCTURE necessary for modern production. That means roads, energy, communications, transportations, construction, etc. -- all of which was undertaken by the STATE. From this alone, your assertion that capitalism provided the prc economic prosperity is an outright LIE.

Next, their economic planners identified certain sectors of focus by the state as PRE-REQUISITES for their intended goals. These sectors, as I posted above, constitute the bulk of RESTRICTED AND PROHIBITED industries and form a large part of their GDP. For instance, the automotive industry, a restricted industry, is an entry for foreign investments on a minority ownership basis only. Add to that the policy of township investments (something similar to cooperatives) that is more or less autonomous from the central government and you would have an idea of what I am talking about.

That they allow certain foreigners to invest outside these industries presently, hence create jobs and revenues for the state, is merely icing on the cake. These businesses are at the mercy of the government anyway, since the special economic zones on which these factories are built, and the regulations that govern them are in the hands of the government. And if that isn't enough, they can simply nationalize the lot -- when they have acquired the necessary expertise to manufacture these things on their own.

What you should understand is that the way things are made in the capitalist system is NON-EXISTENT in china. There is no absolute ownership of land, employment is heavily regulated by the state, and, most importantly, there are NO INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS.

And since your bias against socialism has NO FACTUAL BASIS -- everyone knows chinese socialism is out-performing the us economy -- you resort to sour graping by concocting terms like mixed-economy and attributing the prc's general economic success on the 'capitalist' half of it.

Nonsense!

 

[numinus]

The more you talk, the more ignorant you sound. Um... why would they come here then? If they are coming to America to flee Capitalism, then... what... do you think we have a Socialist economy here? No! They come here to have freedom to run their own business and profit from them, which they do. Which is Capitalism. Try again bro.

Nonsense. The height of capitalist production, inevitably, is a form of monopoly backed by an imperialist government. This happens as more an more capital is concentrated within the hands of a few. One of its glaring features is the existence of banana republics -- an economically stunted society whose sole purpose is to provide raw materials. They are kept in place by their home-grown dictator and lavishly supported by the imperialist.

Sounds familiar?

Wow... I never knew this. I can pay for something I didn't pay for.... neat! What school did you learn this from? I'm warning everyone to avoid that moronic bastion of stupidity. It's no surprise everything else you say is wrought with unsupportable foolishness.

You have NOTHING to refute the logic of classical economics and is reduced to making moronic statements.

Fact.

A THING CAN'T COST MORE THAN THE VALUE INPUTED IN PRODUCING IT. This is a principle closely similar to the conservation of matter and energy.

Since the capitalist does NOT input anything and yet pockets value in the form of profit, then he UNDERPAID someone or something.

Since the cost of machine depreciation and raw materials are FIXED, it logically follows that the ONLY thing he can underpay is LABOR.

Marx' theory of SURPLUS VALUE is more or less an ACCEPTED ECONOMIC FACT and it is pointless debating otherwise -- unless of course you have no education to speak of.

 

[Dr.Who]

Nonsense. The height of capitalist production, inevitably, is a form of monopoly backed by an imperialist government. This happens as more an more capital is concentrated within the hands of a few. One of its glaring features is the existence of banana republics -- an economically stunted society whose sole purpose is to provide raw materials. They are kept in place by their home-grown dictator and lavishly supported by the imperialist.

I see no reason to think that capitalism will inevitably lead to monopolies. In the US we have decided that capitalism and monopolies are antithetical to each other and have gone so far as to make monopolies illegal. Monopolies are unjust and should be illegal.

In contrast the best example of a monopoly that I can think of would be a socialist or communist state. So if the goal is to avoid having capital concentrated in the hands of a few one should support capitalism whenever possible. State control (ultimately and always at gun point even in the US) of a man's finances is also unjust and should be illegal.

By the way, even communism cannot exist without an underlying capitalistic system. Capitalism is the default economy and it exists within all other economies. The most well-run (laugh) communism will be greatly influenced by supply and demand and other market forces.

 

[numinus]

I see no reason to think that capitalism will inevitably lead to monopolies. In the US we have decided that capitalism and monopolies are antithetical to each other and have gone so far as to make monopolies illegal. Monopolies are unjust and should be illegal.

Monopolies are not anti-thetical to capitalism. It is the inevitable consequence of the concentration of capital. In the us, the government simply breaks a monopoly into tiny pieces. In the global stage, there is nothing to do this. That is why there is the imf-wb.

In contrast the best example of a monopoly that I can think of would be a socialist or communist state. So if the goal is to avoid having capital concentrated in the hands of a few one should support capitalism whenever possible. State control (ultimately and always at gun point even in the US) of a man's finances is also unjust and should be illegal.

The state owns everything and everyone owns the state.

By the way, even communism cannot exist without an underlying capitalistic system. Capitalism is the default economy and it exists within all other economies. The most well-run (laugh) communism will be greatly influenced by supply and demand and other market forces.

Of course not.

At one point prior to the start of human civilization, everyone owned everything in common. Tribes got what they needed from nature and shared it with everyone.

It is the same thing with communism -- except human society has in his fingertips, the vast storage of human knowledge at his disposal.

I know it sounds ideal, but when you actually think about it, it is the only logical thing to do given an exponentially increasing human population living within finite resources. The human race simply cannot go on producing things for ever-increasing profits. At some point, the sustainability of human existence would come into the equation.

 

[Andy]

The economic aspect that chinese socialism is addressing is OWNERSHIP.

Ok... The private citizens in China OWN their business. Just like here... Are we socialist, or are they Capitalist?

The entire process of economic development in the prc started in the late 70's the moment they made an honest re-evaluation of their centralized and isolationist form of socialism -- the fruits of which is only being realized lately.

Agreed. This is when they allowed Capitalism. Which is what is happening. A better question is, why didn't the economic boom start in the pure socialism prior to the '78 reforms?

A market-oriented form of socialism isn't possible without the necessary INFRASTRUCTURE necessary for modern production. That means roads, energy, communications, transportations, construction, etc. -- all of which was undertaken by the STATE. From this alone, your assertion that capitalism provided the prc economic prosperity is an outright LIE.

Funny how YOU know so much more than everyone else who would know. Ok... in the US, the governments Local/State/Federal, provide mail, roads, and infrastructure. Are we Socialist, or are they Capitalist?

Next, their economic planners identified certain sectors of focus by the state as PRE-REQUISITES for their intended goals. These sectors, as I posted above, constitute the bulk of RESTRICTED AND PROHIBITED industries and form a large part of their GDP. For instance, the automotive industry, a restricted industry, is an entry for foreign investments on a minority ownership basis only. Add to that the policy of township investments (something similar to cooperatives) that is more or less autonomous from the central government and you would have an idea of what I am talking about.

This quote you provided DOES NOT CHANGE THE ECONOMIC MODEL! Ok, so they have prohibited foreign investments into specific corporations. That must mean they are socialists! No... that mean nothing! This has zero relation to our topic! For example: The largest auto manufacture in China... IS A PRIVATE CAPITALIST CORPORATION! The fact it's protected changes nothing.

Further... we have regulations on industries here in the US too. Try and open a Uranium refining plant, and see how restricted it is. There are protected business in the US for national defense purposes. So, are we Socialist, or are they Capitalist?

That they allow certain foreigners to invest outside these industries presently, hence create jobs and revenues for the state, is merely icing on the cake. These businesses are at the mercy of the government anyway, since the special economic zones on which these factories are built, and the regulations that govern them are in the hands of the government.

How many times must you say the same thing before you realize it doesn't make a point? The amount and restriction of FOREIGN investments DOES NOT CHANGE, the amount of DOMESTIC CAPITALISM! You can spout off about foreign investment till the end of time. It's still irrelevant to the economic model.

Further, Business here are at the mercy of the government. Read up on the Tucker, AT&T, US Steel, and on and on. So are we Socialist, or is China Capitalist?

What you should understand is that the way things are made in the capitalist system is NON-EXISTENT in china. There is no absolute ownership of land, employment is heavily regulated by the state, and, most importantly, there are NO INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS.

See this is when I wonder if you have any rational thought at all. Can I build a warehouse, and build a product, employ people to do it, and make a profit... on someone else's land? Yes. So... that's Capitalism. So what difference does it make who owns the land? None. I can list dozens of businesses the operate on land they do not own. So are we socialist, or are they Capitalist?

Employment is regulated in the US. So are we socialist, or are they Capitalist?

What does intellectual property rights have to do with Capitalism? Are you saying that when the PRIVATE auto maker in China makes a car for profit, that it can't be Capitalism because GM makes cars too? Darn socialist GM. Or are they Capitalist?

And since your bias against socialism has NO FACTUAL BASIS -- everyone knows chinese socialism is out-performing the us economy -- you resort to sour graping by concocting terms like mixed-economy and attributing the prc's general economic success on the 'capitalist' half of it.

Your rational is the equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "nanana... can't hear you". I have submitted link after link directly providing evidence to my points. You have provided no proof of your claims at all. Not a single thing. Not one logical argument. Not even a supportable point that can't be shot down with a 5th grade reading level. Everyone can see this. Which is why no one has come to support your ignorant arguments.

 

[Andy]

A THING CAN'T COST MORE THAN THE VALUE INPUTED IN PRODUCING IT. This is a principle closely similar to the conservation of matter and energy.

Since the capitalist does NOT input anything and yet pockets value in the form of profit, then he UNDERPAID someone or something.

Since the cost of machine depreciation and raw materials are FIXED, it logically follows that the ONLY thing he can underpay is LABOR.

Marx' theory of SURPLUS VALUE is more or less an ACCEPTED ECONOMIC FACT and it is pointless debating otherwise -- unless of course you have no education to speak of.

This is the most ignorant thing I've ever read. No wonder socialism fails every time it's tried.

Ok, let's go over it again. Caddy Fleetwood 35K, Chevy Caprice 20K... same car, same work. Now using that ignorant theory, explain the 'surplus value'.

Answer: You can not! This is because value is a subjective thing. I did some quick research, and information about the disproven theory was instantly found.

Austrian economics:

Value is purely subjective, and cannot be derived from labor, surplus or otherwise. The labor itself can be productive, resulting in creation of goods which are desired by other people, or destructive, merely wasting resources on creation of goods nobody wants - this phenomenon was quite evident in the socialist economies. Thus, we can say if something has value only by observing voluntary exchange between people. When such exchange is prevented, there is no way to tell if the labor is creative or destructive, and so it is impossible to direct the efforts towards creation of value. This impossibility of economic calculation was famously proposed by Ludwig von Mises in 1929 as the reason for imminent failure of socialist economies, in stark contrast to predictions of Marx's theory.

Again... value is subjective. You can not form a simple equation to determine where the value of an object comes from. Otherwise, there would never be a failed business. Why do I have to explain basic logic to you... It's like arguing with a 5 year old.

 

[numinus]

Ok... The private citizens in China OWN their business. Just like here... Are we socialist, or are they Capitalist?

And what kind of ownership do they have in china, eh? Do they have the torrens system of title like the us? Intellectual property rights?

You really need to get an education.

Agreed. This is when they allowed Capitalism. Which is what is happening. A better question is, why didn't the economic boom start in the pure socialism prior to the '78 reforms?

Nonsense. The reforms started in the dismantling of huge agricultural collectives. The industrial push was financed by the state.

Funny how YOU know so much more than everyone else who would know. Ok... in the US, the governments Local/State/Federal, provide mail, roads, and infrastructure. Are we Socialist, or are they Capitalist?

Are you suggesting that the us government is into mining, telecommunication, construction, etc BUSINESS?

This quote you provided DOES NOT CHANGE THE ECONOMIC MODEL! Ok, so they have prohibited foreign investments into specific corporations. That must mean they are socialists! No... that mean nothing! This has zero relation to our topic! For example: The largest auto manufacture in China... IS A PRIVATE CAPITALIST CORPORATION! The fact it's protected changes nothing.

NO.

They have prohibited foreign investments into specific INDUSTRIES.

No wonder you're confused.

Further... we have regulations on industries here in the US too. Try and open a Uranium refining plant, and see how restricted it is. There are protected business in the US for national defense purposes. So, are we Socialist, or are they Capitalist?

They are not manufactured by the state. The us government merely BUYS weapons. It doesn't have any say to whom these corporations sell their products. Just take a look at the development of the latest fighter aircraft. There was a short-list of two companies. The loosing bidder can sell the aircraft to someone else. Which is just as well since the government neither owns nor will buy from the loosing bidder.

How many times must you say the same thing before you realize it doesn't make a point? The amount and restriction of FOREIGN investments DOES NOT CHANGE, the amount of DOMESTIC CAPITALISM! You can spout off about foreign investment till the end of time. It's still irrelevant to the economic model.

It isn't capitalism when it is the STATE THAT IS UNDERTAKING PRODUCTION. Certainly, cooperatives are a form of socialism that is autonomous from the central government

Further, Business here are at the mercy of the government. Read up on the Tucker, AT&T, US Steel, and on and on. So are we Socialist, or is China Capitalist?

Does government regulation on these corporations involve outright NATIONALIZATION?

I don't think so.

See this is when I wonder if you have any rational thought at all. Can I build a warehouse, and build a product, employ people to do it, and make a profit... on someone else's land? Yes. So... that's Capitalism. So what difference does it make who owns the land? None. I can list dozens of businesses the operate on land they do not own. So are we socialist, or are they Capitalist?

Tell me, can the owner of the land claim ownership of the business on a whim? Theoretically, the chinese can do that, you know.

Its not capitalism when part of the business is OWNED by the state.

Employment is regulated in the US. So are we socialist, or are they Capitalist?

Does the us government have its representative sit in a corporation's boardroom dictating policy including employment?

What does intellectual property rights have to do with Capitalism? Are you saying that when the PRIVATE auto maker in China makes a car for profit, that it can't be Capitalism because GM makes cars too? Darn socialist GM. Or are they Capitalist?

Nothing but bone!

One of the fundamental principles of capitalism is that neither the state, nor anyone else for that matter, can be privy to a corporation's trade secrets. The state cannot compel anyone to divulge these except in matters of national security.

Your rational is the equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "nanana... can't hear you". I have submitted link after link directly providing evidence to my points. You have provided no proof of your claims at all. Not a single thing. Not one logical argument. Not even a supportable point that can't be shot down with a 5th grade reading level. Everyone can see this. Which is why no one has come to support your ignorant arguments.

At the very least, your links only suggests a mixed-economy, whatever that is.

The bulk of the GDP of the prc comes from industries that are OWNED by the state. This process of industrialization started LONG before the west even dreamed of investing in the country.

 

[numinus]

This is the most ignorant thing I've ever read. No wonder socialism fails every time it's tried.

Ok, let's go over it again. Caddy Fleetwood 35K, Chevy Caprice 20K... same car, same work. Now using that ignorant theory, explain the 'surplus value'.

Answer: You can not! This is because value is a subjective thing. I did some quick research, and information about the disproven theory was instantly found.

If you had taken a course in college economics, you would have come across the theory of surplus value. That you vainly try to debate the theory using caddies and chevys demonstrates your general ignorance in the topic you purport to know.

Austrian economics:


Again... value is subjective. You can not form a simple equation to determine where the value of an object comes from. Otherwise, there would never be a failed business. Why do I have to explain basic logic to you... It's like arguing with a 5 year old.

Do you even have a financial statement? Try giving your 'value is subjective' nonsense to the irs and see exactly where that gets you.

 

[Andy]

And what kind of ownership do they have in china, eh? Do they have the torrens system of title like the us? Intellectual property rights?

You really need to get an education.

Take your own advice. They own the business. As in own it. Do you need me to copy the dictionary for you? Are you mentally able to understand this?

Neither the land ownership, nor intellectual property rights, have ANYTHING to do with Capitalism. Since you don't get this, I'll copy this one for you.

cap·i·tal·ism (noun)
:an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations

Now... if you any intelligence at all... do tell... how the ownership of the land or intellectual property rights, has any baring on the FACT that ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained by PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS in China?

Once again, you have NO POINT.

Nonsense. The reforms started in the dismantling of huge agricultural collectives. The industrial push was financed by the state.

Push toward privatization. Capitalism. Try again sparky.

Are you suggesting that the us government is into mining, telecommunication, construction, etc BUSINESS?

I am not suggesting, I have PROVEN that the Chinese government has allowed private corporations in those areas. AKA... CAPITALISM. You really don't know anything do you?

They have prohibited foreign investments into specific INDUSTRIES.

Not relevant to the topic. Foreign investment doesn't change the private ownership of the means of production. See Capitalism defined above.

They are not manufactured by the state.

Which is the point of the articles. The Air Conditioners, the Autos, and millions of other products... are NOT MANUFACTURED BY THE STATE. Again, you are the ONLY idiot still not figuring this out.

It isn't capitalism when it is the STATE THAT IS UNDERTAKING PRODUCTION. Certainly, cooperatives are a form of socialism that is autonomous from the central government

You are wrong again. As I proved many times by the links that all say your wrong, the production is being privatized. That's the whole point.

Does government regulation on these corporations involve outright NATIONALIZATION?

Which is my point. In China, they are not nationalizing, the are privatizing. Hence Capitalism.

Tell me, can the owner of the land claim ownership of the business on a whim? Theoretically, the chinese can do that, you know.

But they don't. Instead they allow people to engage in Capitalism. Whether the oppressive socialistic government gives them the ability or not, doesn't change that Capitalism is what the people are doing. Go learn something. You are worthless being this ignorant.

Its not capitalism when part of the business is OWNED by the state.

Exactly, and the Chinese government doesn't own part of the business. That's what the articles I listed say. Again... everyone has this figured out but you!

Does the us government have its representative sit in a corporation's boardroom dictating policy including employment?

Nope. Neither do the private corporations in China. Again, everyone has this figured out but you!

One of the fundamental principles of capitalism is that neither the state, nor anyone else for that matter, can be privy to a corporation's trade secrets. The state cannot compel anyone to divulge these except in matters of national security.

Enron.

At the very least, your links only suggests a mixed-economy, whatever that is.

The bulk of the GDP of the prc comes from industries that are OWNED by the state. This process of industrialization started LONG before the west even dreamed of investing in the country.

No it doesn't. That was the whole point of some of the articles. The state owned industries are failing. The private industries are thriving. Again... you are the only idiot still thinking at the level of ignorance. Go learn something before you speak stupidity.

Chew on this *****:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/china/stories/private041298.htm
Yet another clear cut example of Capitalism. No government ownership whatsoever. Sounds like Tyson Foods here in the US.

 

[Andy]

If you had taken a course in college economics, you would have come across the theory of surplus value. That you vainly try to debate the theory using caddies and chevys demonstrates your general ignorance in the topic you purport to know.

The fact you can't, shows how ignorant you are about anything. Real life isn't a formula on a paper. If you had any clue, you'd know that. Socialism works real well on paper, but in real life constantly fails.

Do you even have a financial statement? Try giving your 'value is subjective' nonsense to the irs and see exactly where that gets you.

You truly are clueless. Speaking of taxes, you realize that when the city official comes and appraises my home, my taxes change? But what is that 'assumed' value dependent on?

Wow, ignorance abounds with your posts.

 

[numinus]

To the ignorant low-brows in this thread:

In any discussion of a socialist economic model, especially that of china, the pertinent feature that one needs to look at is the DOMINANT MEANS OF PRODUCTION -- since it is entirely possible for regions within a country developing at an UNEVEN pace.

For instance, during the period of us industrialization, certain areas, particularly the south, still persisted on an agriculture dominated by slave-labor. In some parts of the world, particularly in the third world, backward capitalist economies still have a semi-feudal land relations.

In addition, nothing in socialism prohibits a MARKET-ORIENTED economy since the buying and selling of goods and services is the necessary consequence of the development of a society's PRODUCTIVE FORCES.

In china, certain industries are allowed foreign investements and a limited amount of capitalism simply because these industries have very little bearing on the central government's over-all SOCIALIST ECONOMIC PLAN.

It is no less idiotic to assert that china has a capitalist economy than the uk has a feudal economy.

And this fact becomes more apparent when one simply browse the catalogue of restricted and prohibited industries.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-11/17/content_735892.htm

I. Farming, Forestry, Animal Husbandry and Fishery Industries
1. Development and production of grain (including potatoes), cotton and oilseed (Chinese partner shall hold the majority of shares)
2. Processing of the logs of precious varieties of trees (equity joint ventures or contractual joint ventures only)
II. Mining and Quarrying Industries
1. Exploring and mining of minerals such as wolfram, tin, antimony, molybdenum, barite, fluorite (equity joint ventures or contractual joint ventures only)
2. Exploring and mining of precious metals (gold, silver, platinum families)
3. Exploring and mining of precious non-metals such as diamond
4. Exploring and mining of special and rare kinds of coal (Chinese partner shall hold the majority of shares)
5. Mining of szaibelyite and szaibelyite iron ores
6. Mining of celestite
III. Manufacturing Industries
1. Food Processing Industry
(1) Production of millet wine and spirits of famous brands
(2) Production of soda beverage of foreign brand
(3) Production of synthetic sweet agent such as saccharin
(4) Processing of fat or oil
2. Tobacco Processing Industry
(1) Production of cigarettes and filter tips
3. Textile Industry
(1) Wool spinning, cotton spinning
(2) Silk reeling
4. Printing and Record Medium Reproduction Industry
(1) Printing of publications (Chinese partner shall hold the majority of shares except printing of package decoration)
5. Petroleum Processing and Coking Industries
(1) Construction and management of refineries
6. Chemical Raw Material and Products Manufacturing Industry
(1) Production of ionic membrane caustic soda
(2) Production of sensitive materials
(3) Production of benzidine
(4) Production of chemical products from which narcotics are easily made (ephedrine, 3, 4-idene dihydro phenyl- 2-acctonc, phenylacetic acid, 1-phenyl- 2-acetone, heliotropin, safrole, isosafrole, acetic oxide)
(5) Production of sulphuric acid basic titanium white
(6) Processing of baron, magnesium, iron ores
(7) Barium salt production
7. Medical and Pharmaceutical Products Industry
(1) Production of chloramphenicol, penicillin G, lincomycin, gentamicin, dihydrostreptomycin, amikacin, tetracycline hydrochloride, oxytetracycline, medemycin, kitasamycin, ilotyin, ciprofloxacin and offoxacin
(2) Production of analgin, paracetamol, Vitamin B1, Vitamin B2, Vitamin C, Vitamin E
(3) Production of immunity vaccines, bacterins, antitoxins and anatoxin (BCG vaccine, poliomyelitis, DPT vaccine, measles vaccine, Type-B encephalitis, epidemic cerebrospinal meningitis vaccine) which are included in the State's Plan
(4) Production of material medicines for addiction narcotic and psychoactive drug (Chinese partner shall hold the majority of shares)
(5) Production of blood products
(6) Production of non-self-destructible expendable injectors, transfusion systems, blood transfusion systems, blood bags
8. Chemical Fibre Production Industry
(1) Production of chemical fibre drawnwork of conventional chipper
(2) Production of viscose staple fibre with an annual single thread output capacity of less than 20,000 tons
(3) Production of polyester and spandex used for fibre and non-fibre with a daily production capacity of less than 400 tons
9. Rubber Products
(1) Cross-ply and old tire recondition (not including radial tire), and production of industrial rubber fittings of low-performance
10. Non-Ferrous Metal Smelting and Rolling Processing Industry
(1) Smelting and separation of rare earth metal (equity joint ventures or contractual joint ventures only)
11. Ordinary Machinery Manufacturing Industry
(1) Manufacture of containers
(2) Manufacture of small and medium type ordinary bearings
(3) Manufacture of truck cranes of less than 50 tons (equity joint ventures or contractual joint ventures only)
12. Special Purpose Equipment Manufacturing Industry
(1) Production of low or middle class type-B ultrasonic displays
(2) Manufacture of equipment for producing long dacron thread and short fibre
(3) Manufacture of crawler dozers of less than 320 horsepower, wheeled mechanical loaders of less than 3 cubic meter (equity joint ventures or contractual joint ventures only)
13. Electronic and Telecommunication Equipment Manufacturing Industry
(1) Production of satellite television receivers and key parts
IV. Production and Supply of Power, Gas and Water
1. Construction and operation of conventional coal-fired power plants whose unit installed capacity is less than 300,000kW (with the exception of small power grid)
V. Communication and Transportation, Storage, Post and Telecommunication Services
1. Road passenger transportation companies
*2. Cross-border automobile transportation companies
*3. Water transportation companies
*4. Railway freight transportation companies
5. Railway passenger transportation companies (Chinese partner shall hold the majority of shares)
6. General aviation companies engaging in photographing, prospecting and industry (Chinese partner shall hold the majority of shares)
*7. Telecommunication companies
VI. Wholesale and Retail Trade Industries
*l. Commercial companies of commodity trading, direct selling, mail order selling, Internet selling, franchising, commissioned operation, sales agent, commercial management companies, and wholesale, retail and logistic distribution of grain, cotton, vegetable oil, sugar, medicines, tobaccos, automobiles, crude oil, capital goods for agricultural production
*2. Wholesale or retail business of books, newspapers and periodicals
*3. Distributing and selling of audiovisual products (excluding movies)
4. Commodity auctions
*5. Goods leasing companies
*6. Agencies (ship, freight forwarding, tally for foreign vessels, advertising)
*7. Wholesaling product oil and construction and operation of gasoline stations
8. Foreign trade companies
VII. Banking and Insurance Industries
1. Banks, finance companies, trust investment companies
*2. Insurance companies
*3. Security companies, security investment fund management companies
4. Financial leasing companies
5. Foreign exchange brokerage
*6. Insurance brokerage companies
VIII. Real Estate Industry
1. Development of pieces of land (equity joint ventures or contractual joint ventures only)
2. Construction and operation of high-ranking hotels, villas, high-class office buildings and international exhibition centers
3. Construction and operation of large scale theme park
IX. Social Service Industry
1. Public Facility Service Industries
(1) Construction and operation of networks of gas, heat, water supply and water drainage in large and medium sized cities (Chinese partner shall hold the majority of shares)
2. Information, Consultation Service Industries
(1) Legal consulting
(2) Market Research (equity joint ventures or contractual joint ventures only)
X. Public Health, Sports and Social Welfare Industries
1. Medical treatment establishments (equity joint ventures or contractual joint ventures only)
2. Construction and operation of golf courts
XI. Education, Culture and Arts, Broadcasting, Film and TV Industries
1. Education establishments for senior high school students (equity joint ventures or contractual joint ventures only)
2. Construction and operation of cinemas (Chinese partner shall hold the majority of shares)
3. Production and publication of broadcasting and TV programs and film-making (Chinese partner shall hold the majority of shares)
XII. Scientific Research and Poly-technical Services Industries
1. Mapping companies (Chinese partner shall hold the majority of shares)
*2. Inspection, verification and attestation companies for imported and exported goods
XIII. Other industries restricted by the State or international treaties that China has concluded or taken part in.


The above industries constitute the bulk of state owned production and exploitation according to the specific stage of socialist economic development.

 

[numinus]

Cont'd.

As for permitted and encouraged industries, the principles that govern them is quite clear. They are there for china to gain expertise in certain sectors that are not performing very well.

http://www.china.org.cn/english/CU-c/76756.htm

Article 5 Those foreign investment projects under one of the following circumstances shall be listed as encouraged foreign investment projects:

1. Projects for new agricultural technology, comprehensive agricultural development and for energy, transportation and key raw materials industries;

2. Projects for new and high technology, advanced applicable technology which can improve performance of products and increase tech-economic efficiency of enterprises or produce new equipment and new material that domestic capacity is deficient.

3. Projects that meet market demands, and can promote the quality of products, enter into new markets or strengthen the competing capability of products in intentional markets.

4. Projects adopting new technology and new equipment for saving energy and raw materials, for comprehensive utilization of resources and renewable resources, and for prevention environment pollution;

5. Projects that can make full use of man power and resource advantage in mid-west region and are in accordance with the State's industrial policies;

6. Other cases that are regulated by laws and administrative regulations of the State.

Article 6 Those foreign investment projects under one of the following circumstances shall be listed as restricted foreign investment projects:

1. Projects adopting out-of-date technologies;

2. Projects unfavorable to resource-saving and ecological environment improvement;

3. Projects for resources protected by laws and regulations of the State;

4. Projects in those industries that shall be opened gradually;

5. Other cases that are regulated by laws and administrative regulations of the State.

Article 7 Those foreign investment projects under one of the following circumstances shall be listed as prohibited foreign investment projects:

1. Projects that endanger the safety of the State or damage social and public interests;

2. Projects that pollute environment, destroy natural resources or impair the health of human beings;

3. Projects that occupy large amounts of arable land, unfavorable to protection and development of land resources;

4. Projects that endanger the safety of military facility and its performance;

5. Projects that adopt the unique craftsmanship or technology of our country to make products;

6. Other cases that are regulated by laws and administrative regulations of the State.

In addition, these guidelines were promulgated after 2000, LONG AFTER SOCIALIST ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT has already talken place.

So, if one is still inclined to ask -- What is socialist? What is capitalist? -- it is better for such a ***** to stop reading media propaganda and actually get a decent education.

 

[numinus]

The fact you can't, shows how ignorant you are about anything. Real life isn't a formula on a paper. If you had any clue, you'd know that. Socialism works real well on paper, but in real life constantly fails.

You really are clueless, aren't you? A theory with no practical success is USELESS.

You truly are clueless. Speaking of taxes, you realize that when the city official comes and appraises my home, my taxes change? But what is that 'assumed' value dependent on?

Wow, ignorance abounds with your posts.

REAL ESTATE APPRAISAL is a more or less EXACT SCIENCE undertaken by PROFESSIONALS. The value of your property takes into consideration very real conditions that bears on its use -- among them the infrastructure ALREADY built around it.

The fact that you don't even know this obvious fact only demonstrates the opinion I often post here:

AGAINST INVINCIBLE STUPIDITY, EVEN GOD CONTENDS IN VAIN.

 

[Andy]

Well I had hoped by being enraging, you would go learn something, but that didn't work. So here goes another round of pointing out the obvious to everyone else reading, that clearly you do not get.

In any discussion of a socialist economic model, especially that of china, the pertinent feature that one needs to look at is the DOMINANT MEANS OF PRODUCTION

Chinese Economic Reform

"As of 2005, 70% of China's GDP is in the private sector"
The dominant means of production is Capitalism.

In china, certain industries are allowed foreign investements and a limited amount of capitalism simply because these industries have very little bearing on the central government's over-all SOCIALIST ECONOMIC PLAN.

When 70% of the GDP is Capitalism, I don't see how this a 'limited amount'. Further, and perhaps you can explain this, but I do not see how foreign investment, restricted or otherwise, has anything even remotely to do with Capitalism. I'm sorry, I just do not see it.

Back to my point before, my company has ZERO foreign investment. We are capitalist. So if a company in China has zero foreign investment, yet is privately owned, privately operated, like the Guiyang Hong Yue Food Products Co. which earns $6 million yearly and employs 250 people... how is this not Capitalism? Just explain the logic, because according to the dictionary copy I posted in the prior post, that is Capitalism.

It is no less idiotic to assert that china has a capitalist economy than the uk has a feudal economy.

Ok then everyone in the entire world, including those in China complaining about the Capitalistic economy, are idiots, but you.

And this fact becomes more apparent when one simply browse the catalogue of restricted and prohibited industries.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-11/17/content_735892.htm

(really long list of irrelevance here)

The above industries constitute the bulk of state owned production and exploitation according to the specific stage of socialist economic development.

You seem to be reading into this article much more than is actually there. Again, back to my previous question, how does restrictions on foreign investment have anything to do with Capitalism? You seem to be reading into this article the idea that restricting foreign investment means they are all under public control. This is not stated anywhere in this article.

Again, perhaps these industries do constitute the bulk of state owned production. But that just means exactly that, this is the bulk of state owned production. State owned production only accounts for 30% of China's GDP. The rest of it is privately owned production.

So you point out that the bulk of, the states owned 30%, is in these areas... well yippy. I just pointed out that the other 70% is private. Which point is more valid to our topic?

I also keep asking the question, if socialism works... why was there a need for reform to begin with? You realize that the Chinese socialism started prior to, and was completed, in 1956. So from 1956 to 1979, there was uninterrupted socialism, and a virtual elimination of all private business.

That is 23 years of domination of a socialist economy. During that time, China's economy was in the gutter. They were a backwards screwed up nation that in 1981, 53% of the population lived in poverty. Again, socialism never works. But by 2001, the poverty rate was 8%, that being after the reforms that allowed for Capitalism.