Bush must apologize

[WileE]

pocketfullofit

Bush needs to first apologize to the American public for Running for office, ...then the American public needs to apologize for letting him win...twice

No apology will be forthcoming from me. In fact, I would vote for Bush a third time, if it were possible.

 

[Bobcat1]

Hi Bobcat1,
Firstly welcome to the site. I hope you will enjoy and stay awhile.

Secondly, you raise an interesting point in tacit permission from Washington which surely would need to come before Israel would act in those manners.

As PFOS pointed out, the difference between striking Iran's homeland versus Iraq as they did in a very successful raid in 1981. The distances and logistics involved are much greater, while the planes involved and still available to them, are what I and most would consider inadequate for that task.
The F-15E is an awesome machine, but doesnt have the range for the payload needed without serious tanker support, of which Israel doesnt have enough of.

Keep in mind, that the Iranians, while might be disliked by some, certainly are not dumb and have surely learned the lessons taught from the first Israeli strike on a foreign nuclear program.

Don't underestimate Israeli ingenuity. Currently, they have F-16's, and while this fighter has only a 340NM radius, the Israeli's could modify it to carry additional fuel tanks and extend its strike range. With mid-air refuelings, I think it may be possible for this fighter-bomber to drop its payload and return to Israeli airspace.

 

[Bunz]

Don't underestimate Israeli ingenuity. Currently, they have F-16's, and while this fighter has only a 340NM radius, the Israeli's could modify it to carry additional fuel tanks and extend its strike range. With mid-air refuelings, I think it may be possible for this fighter-bomber to drop its payload and return to Israeli airspace.

Hi Bobcat,
While you are correct in the fact the F-16 is awesome machine, but the strike capabilities were really stretched in the raid on Iraq. To expect them to carry out a mission where the distances are doubled is unrealistic.
Also, as I said before, Iran presumably learned the lessons from that action. Namely, not having the program(s) in a location without the necessary security from this sort of strike. Layers of air defenses, and structures designed as bunkers at the minimum.

 

[Bobcat1]

Hi Bobcat,
While you are correct in the fact the F-16 is awesome machine, but the strike capabilities were really stretched in the raid on Iraq. To expect them to carry out a mission where the distances are doubled is unrealistic.
Also, as I said before, Iran presumably learned the lessons from that action. Namely, not having the program(s) in a location without the necessary security from this sort of strike. Layers of air defenses, and structures designed as bunkers at the minimum.

Again, I'm not claiming to know the nature of the Israeli plans. I'm only relaying the information that they've indeed drawn up plans of some sort. Whether they use F-16's (which by the way, with two refuelings and additional fuel tanks might do it), or whether they use their ICBM's, I have no idea.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

No apology will be forthcoming from me. In fact, I would vote for Bush a third time, if it were possible.

I would ask why, but I really don't care, it would be a pathetic list of failings .....
Bad Econ
Military Stretched to think
OBL still alive
Iraq still not safe, stable or anything close ( horrible planning from the start, even worse in reaction to changes....they figured out the Insurgency was going on about a year to late
Iran on its way to a bomb, and a complete lack of world support do to anything now due to lies about Iraq and Hyperbole about Iran.
Did not fix SS, Medical care,
Debt
Debt
did I say debt?
O yea, spending to much, and not paying for it
Did I say I want bin Laden's head on stick? cuz I do, not alive and well still years later.
No border security,
Homeland Security a overall joke
But hey at least he banned stem cells....and gave tax cuts to rich while we financed a war and ...and did I say Debt?

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Again, I'm not claiming to know the nature of the Israeli plans. I'm only relaying the information that they've indeed drawn up plans of some sort. Whether they use F-16's (which by the way, with two refuelings and additional fuel tanks might do it), or whether they use their ICBM's, I have no idea.

Do you have any idea how many tankers they would need to refuel them all 2 times? all the while being open to attack ...a attack that would basically shut down There ability to do air strikes for the rest of the war? because yes, Iran would fight back, and others would join them.

The Idea of a limited strike is almost moot. One must be willing and ready to go balls the wall all out, because its a very very real chance that is the outcome of such strikes.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Don't underestimate Israeli ingenuity. Currently, they have F-16's, and while this fighter has only a 340NM radius, the Israeli's could modify it to carry additional fuel tanks and extend its strike range. With mid-air refuelings, I think it may be possible for this fighter-bomber to drop its payload and return to Israeli airspace.

Like I said , they can get a plane there, just not one with the needed Weapons payload. It would be like flying all that way to take pot shots with a rifle.

 

[Bobcat1]

I found this. Thought it might be interesting:

The air force had demonstrated its ability to bring Israel's military power to bear at distant points and in unconventional operations. In 1976 its transport aircraft ferried troops to the Entebbe airport in Uganda to rescue passengers on a commercial airplane hijacked by Arab terrorists. In June 1981, F-16 fighter-bombers destroyed the Osiraq (Osiris-Iraq) nuclear research reactor near Baghdad, Iraq, flying at low levels over Saudi Arabian and Iraqi territory to evade radar detection. In 1985, Israeli F-15s refueled in flight and bombed the headquarters of the PLO near Tunis, Tunisia, at a distance of more than 2,000 kilometers from their bases.

And this:

FAR Technologies developed an implementation for adapting existing fuel tanks to be carried on weapon stations. The installation of fuel lines flows fuel from the outboard weapon stations (3 and 7 on the F-16) to fuel tanks pylons, (stations 4 and 6 on the F-16). IAI/Lahav is working on the necessary adaptations for Israeli F-16s. The installation, which can be applied in only two hours, enable the F-16 to carry a total to five external fuel tanks, adding 25% to the mission radius on attack missions. Israel's IMI offers a higher capacity 600 Gallon external fuel tanksfor the F16, which can replace the 370 gallon tanks.

At this link:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/iaf.htm

Looking up FAR Technologies, I found this about these additional fuel tanks:

Performance Benefits
Up to 40% increased range for ferry flights
Up to 25% wider mission radius
Up to 100% increased patrol time

At this link:

http://www.fartechnologies.com/

Who's to say what's impossible?

 

[pocketfullofshells]

you missed the whole point, the planes can make it there, but they need to carry a heavy Weapons payload to do any job to the underground systems....something they cant do with that much fuel.

I found this. Thought it might be interesting:



And this:



At this link:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/iaf.htm

Looking up FAR Technologies, I found this about these additional fuel tanks:



At this link:

http://www.fartechnologies.com/

Who's to say what's impossible?

 

[Bunz]

Bobcat,
While it may be possible that the Israeli's secretly have a weapons platform that I am utterly unaware of in terms of a strikefighter that is capable of making the range. At this point, the only flying weapons platform capable of it would be a long range bomber, of the B-2 variety if expected to survive, or have any chance of it.
You pointed out that there was a 2000km raid in Tunisia, but they were able to make the necessary refuelings over the Med.
The only practical way for this ever to be considered if undertaken by Israel would be with long range missles from thier home silos.