Bill Clinton: "Torture Like on 24 Is OK"

USMC the Almighty said:
Berreal doesn't have a clue about anything. Quite honestly, there are many good arguments you can make against the war (I've seen Ron Paul make some, George Will of the Washington Post make some, Senator Lugar, etc.)and against the administration but he prefers to just yell "chickenhawk" and "joooos" at the top of his lungs, thinking that constitutes some kind of intelligent argument.
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Jooos? You must be joking.
 
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Please prove what you said is true.
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Every election, there are plenty of fringe candidates. None of them ever comes close to winning. Is this effecting change? No. The two juggernauts that are the Democratic and Republican Parties roll on, unaffected.

As for the other part of the statement of mine you bolded, you've called me a sheep based on the fact that you think I "follow the crowd." Or wait, you've said that "people like me are total sheep." The only reason you seem to have said this is because I don't think any of those fringe candidates have a shot at winning.

I'm saying that if you want this whole thing changed, you're going to have to do something other than just voting for fringe candidates when anyone who is intellectually honest can tell that as things stand now, they don't have a shot at winning.

One last thing...if you think that calling me names is helping your argument, you're wrong.
 
vyo476 said:
Every election, there are plenty of fringe candidates. None of them ever comes close to winning. Is this effecting change? No. The two juggernauts that are the Democratic and Republican Parties roll on, unaffected.

As for the other part of the statement of mine you bolded, you've called me a sheep based on the fact that you think I "follow the crowd." Or wait, you've said that "people like me are total sheep." The only reason you seem to have said this is because I don't think any of those fringe candidates have a shot at winning.

I'm saying that if you want this whole thing changed, you're going to have to do something other than just voting for fringe candidates when anyone who is intellectually honest can tell that as things stand now, they don't have a shot at winning.

One last thing...if you think that calling me names is helping your argument, you're wrong.
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Of course you have to do something other than just voting or something other than the Reps or Dems.

I think you are a sheep because you don't dare step from the fold and vote for a "fringe" candidate.

You think they don't have a chance because you continue to think so. And why do you think that?? Mainly because the media only talks about Reps and Dems.
 
KeepOurFreedoms said:
Of course you have to do something other than just voting or something other than the Reps or Dems.

I think you are a sheep because you don't dare step from the fold and vote for a "fringe" candidate.

You think they don't have a chance because you continue to think so. And why do you think that?? Mainly because the media only talks about Reps and Dems.
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The media only talks about Republicans and Democrats because they are the only ones who have a chance at winning. Not the other way around.

Why should they waste valuable airtime reporting on someone like Ron Paul who virtually no one cares about?
 
Of course you have to do something other than just voting or something other than the Reps or Dems.
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Perhaps, then, you should be getting all hot and bothered over that, rather than this.

I think you are a sheep because you don't dare step from the fold and vote for a "fringe" candidate.
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Let's say that I want to get into the next room over from mine. Do I continuously run into a wall in the hopes that it'll come down? No. Do I find another way to get to my goal? Yes. If I wanted to, I could always combine the original idea - running into the wall - with something else (hitting the wall with a sledgehammer, for instance) in order to make it effective. But running into that wall alone isn't going to do any good and until I see that there's a better way of getting to my goal, I'm not going to bother with it.

You think they don't have a chance because you continue to think so. And why do you think that?? Mainly because the media only talks about Reps and Dems.
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I think they don't have a chance because I've seen election results and realize that their are circumstances in America that prevent fringe parties from becoming very popular. Why do you suppose Ron Paul decided to run for the Republican Party nomination? Because he identifies with other Republicans so strongly? No. Because he, himself, believes that the only way he could even possibly get elected is if he was a member of one of the two big parties.

The media certainly has something to do with it. Fund raising caps have something to do with it. The attitude of the Democratic and Republican nominees has something to do with it. The attitude of stalwart members of both major parties have a hell of a lot to do with it.

As with many things, I think education is one way of solving this problem. Most public high schools that still require a class in Political Science or US Government teach things along the lines of, "These are the two major parties and their stances...oh, and these are the fringe parties." It would be wholly more prudent to teach, "These are the issues that face us today and this is how these individuals have reacted to them," which leads kids to making decisions based on each individual candidate's stance, rather than along a party line. Of course, the only way to affect a change from the former to the latter would be through the government, and having the government interfere in how government classes are taught sounds a bit sticky, but it's still my idea for a first step.

What other ideas do you have, KOF, for dismantling the bipartisan system? I mean, other than voting for fringe candidates.
 
vyo476 said:
Perhaps, then, you should be getting all hot and bothered over that, rather than this.



Let's say that I want to get into the next room over from mine. Do I continuously run into a wall in the hopes that it'll come down? No. Do I find another way to get to my goal? Yes. If I wanted to, I could always combine the original idea - running into the wall - with something else (hitting the wall with a sledgehammer, for instance) in order to make it effective. But running into that wall alone isn't going to do any good and until I see that there's a better way of getting to my goal, I'm not going to bother with it.



I think they don't have a chance because I've seen election results and realize that their are circumstances in America that prevent fringe parties from becoming very popular. Why do you suppose Ron Paul decided to run for the Republican Party nomination? Because he identifies with other Republicans so strongly? No. Because he, himself, believes that the only way he could even possibly get elected is if he was a member of one of the two big parties.

The media certainly has something to do with it. Fund raising caps have something to do with it. The attitude of the Democratic and Republican nominees has something to do with it. The attitude of stalwart members of both major parties have a hell of a lot to do with it.

As with many things, I think education is one way of solving this problem. Most public high schools that still require a class in Political Science or US Government teach things along the lines of, "These are the two major parties and their stances...oh, and these are the fringe parties." It would be wholly more prudent to teach, "These are the issues that face us today and this is how these individuals have reacted to them," which leads kids to making decisions based on each individual candidate's stance, rather than along a party line. Of course, the only way to affect a change from the former to the latter would be through the government, and having the government interfere in how government classes are taught sounds a bit sticky, but it's still my idea for a first step.

What other ideas do you have, KOF, for dismantling the bipartisan system? I mean, other than voting for fringe candidates.
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Hot and bothered? LOL You are so confused.

I talk to people....friends, coworkers, people at stores, people on political boards, all kinds of people. I'm spreading the word. I write my representatives and the media, even if they don't care what I have to say.

What are you doing?
 
KeepOurFreedoms said:
All polls are full of crapola.
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No, my friend they're not. Fund raising is based primarily on polls, as is media coverage, along with potential participation in debates. In the nomination process, if a candidate doesn't poll well, he's not taken seriously. I offer Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich as examples.
 
What are you doing?
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Where possible, discussing in a forthright manner with my peers what partisanship is...which basically means dropping whatever I'm doing and getting into an argument every time I hear "Republicans are evil!" or "Democrats are evil!"

I'm also incorporating it into my writing. With a little luck (and a few more years of education) I'll be able to start publishing some of that writing, which may or may not ever get read. For reasons of my fragile ego I'll stop there.

We all do what we can, I suppose.
 
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