Are you scientifically literate?

[GenSeneca]

I'm willing to use force?

Government IS force. Clearly you have no problem using government to force oil companies to support alternative energy companies who are directly competing with them in the same industry.

First of all, it's not entirely their money

Of course not... You'd have to believe that people have a right to keep what they earn to believe otherwise.

and secondly of all it certainly isn't their oil.

Once they pay for it, yes, it is their oil.

Nearly all of the oil they drill for here in the states they drill for on land leased to them by the Federal and state governments.

They pay for the lease and they additionally pay a per barrel royalty... That's the deal government has made with oil companies.

The oil belongs to the American people.

Someone go over to Rogen's house and siphon all the gas out of his car. If he complains, just tell him you're taking back what rightfully belongs to the American people.

I have long said that there needs to be a completely new paradigm for the way things work in the industry. The government needs to keep those leases, and then hire the oil companies to drill and extract and refine the oil, and keeping the revenues for the American people themselves.

Oh, the Venezuelan model...

Venezuela Decrees Nationalization of Last Foreign Controlled Oil Fields

“The privatization of oil is over in Venezuela. This was the last area that we hadn’t recovered. This is the true nationalization of the oil. The oil belongs to all Venezuelans.” - Hugo Chavez

Chavez had asked the legislature for this power so as to advance the country more rapidly on the path towards “21st century socialism.”

But you're opposed to nationalization and socialism.

The oil companies should never have been allowed to steal our oil and then sell it back to us at ridiculous prices.

Whatever you say Hugo...

 

[GenSeneca]

No, in fact, all you've done is dance around it.

Sanctioned:
1. Give official permission or approval for (an action).

Government Sanctioned Fraud.

If government gives you permission to steal Timmy's bicycle, you're not going to get arrested for stealing.

 

[GenSeneca]

The deregulation I was referring to was the deregulation of the banking industry. Next.

That's your team arguing against regulation of the GSE's at the core of the financial crisis.

 

[GenSeneca]

You seem to think that corporate entities have rights that ordinary citizens don't have. Since nothing could be further from the truth, I have to ask how you came to such a silly conclusion.

That's the fallacy of reification. A corporate entity exists as a legal construct on paper, it's not a physical entity. Remove all the people from a corporation and you're left with words on a piece of paper.

 

[GenSeneca]

Actually, it isn't necessarily the case. In many instances it isn't in anyone's interest. Case in point - valley of the drums. In whose interest was that?

That's not an example of a company acting in it's own self interest but against their own self interest. Illegally dumping toxic waste is a an act of self destruction, not self preservation.

 

[GenSeneca]

People who believe that companies have no moral obligations are the same kind of people who allowed stuff like this to happen:

The people who own and operate the companies have the obligations. Words on a piece of paper were not responsible for illegal dumping, the people who ran the corporation were.

And in my opinion, are enemies of the state and of the people, and should be treated as such.

Whatever you say Hugo.

 

[GenSeneca]

Exxon Mobile paid no Federal taxes in 2009.

Your claim was that some companies pay NO taxes... Exxon paid more than $78.6 BILLION in taxes in 2009. - Pg. 9 of Exxon's Earnings Report FY'09

Once again you use the word "NO", "NO regulation", "NO Taxes", do you just forget to include words like "Banking" and "Federal"? You really need to be specific when making such allegation because otherwise it's too easy to prove you wrong and I'd prefer more of a challenge.

 

[GenSeneca]

What the SCOTUS did was to declare that corporate entities themselves have the same rights as individuals...

Corporations can vote? SWEET! Can they also run for office?

Exxon Mobil 2012!!

They gave individual rights to the corporations themselves.

Would you prefer that Corporations have no Constitutional rights?

 

[GenSeneca]

Way to skirt an issue. Congratulations.

It's not a skirt, it's a kilt!

"The law of causality is the law of identity applied to action. All actions are caused by entities. The nature of an action is caused and determined by the nature of the entities that act; a thing cannot act in contradiction to its nature . . . . The law of identity does not permit you to have your cake and eat it, too. The law of causality does not permit you to eat your cake before you have it." - John Galt

Your view on nationalizing oil fields and expecting oil companies to do all the work while government keeps all the profits is proof that you do not understand the law of causality.

Your good buddy Chavez didn't understand the law of causality, he nationalized the oil of his country thinking he could have his cake and eat it too. Of course the law of causality has caught up to him and now he's begging for private oil companies to return to his country.

 

[orogenicman]

Correct, no tax breaks for any business, large or small. I'm in favor of tax cuts, that is cutting the rate at which they are taxed and ultimately to zero, but offering incentives on the condition that a company do something to obtain it, no... I don't support such "tax breaks" as they are government intervention into the market.


If you could read, it says "industries you like", such as the renewable energy industry.


Well, there have been a lot of them but I'll just point out the one I was referring to in that reply.

You said, "conservatives have such a huge problem subsidizing alternative energy...while not having any problem at all subsidizing the oil industry"

That statement is a lie. Not one SDC on this board has said they support subsidizing oil but not alternatives. In fact, they appear to have agreed with me that no corporation should get taxpayer subsidies.

1) What is an SDC?

2) Since I'm new to the forum, I can't verify the statement that no "SDC (whatever that is) supports subsidizing oil but not alternatives", so how do I know that that statement is not a lie?

But the fact is that conservatives IN CONGRESS have and do support subsidies for the oil industry while simultaneously trying to prevent subsidies for alternative energy. And since the conservatives on this forum are not the only conservatives around (I doubt that very many here who call themselves conservtives are actually conservatives in the first place), you can hardly say that my statement was a lie.

 

[orogenicman]

The Acme corporation makes $1,000,000 in profit.
The Government confiscates 35% ($350,000) as corporate tax.
The Acme corporation pays out the remaining $650,000 to it's investors.
Each individual is then forced to pay an income tax on their share of the $650,000, which has already been taxed.

That's double taxation.

Whatever it is that you jabbered on about has nothing at all to do with double taxation.

Money is not taxed. People and companies are taxed.

 

[orogenicman]

Gen, most of our oil reserves do not belong to the oil companies. They belong to the American people. That being the case, your rally cry of "nationalization" is a moot point.

 

[GenSeneca]

The free market has NEVER been the only solution, ever.

Correction, the Free Market is the only solution that does not involve using force to get things accomplished.

Through government you can use all kinds of force and get all kinds of things done... As Comrade Stalin will confirm.

Where was the free market when we went to the moon? Where was the free market when we invented nuclear power? Where was the free market when the power grid was built in the 1950s and 1960s? Where was the free market when we built the interstate system?

In every case the government limited or excluded free market participation from those projects.

Prior to government intervention, all forms of travel originated in the free market. Prior to government intervention, all forms of power originated in the free market. Prior to government intervention, all power grids were built by the free market. Prior to government intervention, all transportation routes were built by the free market.

In every one of those cases, it was understood that government had no right to intervene and no obligation fund such projects.

Leaving this country's energy future in the hands of immoral corporate raiders is the assinine idea to beat all assinine ideas.

Right... Government is filled with angels pure as the wind driven snow. The corporate raiders you fear can't survive in the private sector, they are all lining up to work with, and for, the government. The raiders know they can get rich quick on taxpayer money because it's poorly managed by politicians who are never be held accountable for waste, fraud, and abuse.

With end of TARP, investigations into fraud take center stage

We need a separation of economy and state for the same reason we need a separation of church and state.

 

[orogenicman]

"A corporate entity exists as a legal construct on paper, it's not a physical entity."

Tell that to the SCOTUS, which recently made corporations equal to individuals

 

[orogenicman]

That's not an example of a company acting in it's own self interest but against their own self interest. Illegally dumping toxic waste is a an act of self destruction, not self preservation.

Gen, why is it illegal to dump toxic waste? Isn't that a government intrusion into commerce? You want government out of the free markets. You said it a number of times. If the valley of the drums can occur in a regulated market, what do you think corporations would do in an unregulated market?