Mare Tranquillity
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Profanity is often a sign of anger.
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Discuss politics - join our community by registering for free here! HOP - the political discussion forum
Are we living in the Biblical End times?
- Thread starter invest07
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Profanity is often a sign of anger.
Werbung:
Or a sign of amused ridicule.
invest07
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mare tranquility
"Your whole premise would be more believable had not other Christians, who were just as devout and convinced as you are, seen the fulfillment of the Biblical prophecies in other times and other ways. Christians have been seeing the fulfillment of the prophecies since Biblical times. With two thousand years of history to look back on it would nearly impossible NOT to find ways to declare the prophecies fulfilled."
It is true that other generation of Christians have looked at the same prophecies and wondered would End Times occur within their lifetimes. In NONE of those previous generations did Jews exist as a political state. Until 1948, Jews were citizens of other countries. The establishment of Israel was a critical event in End Times prophecy. During past generations, Christians looked toward the stablishment of some sort of Jewish state, perhaps within their lifetime, realizing a Jewish state was a requirement of End Times.
As to Nostradamus, the exact wording of this prediction follows:
"When a [French] army shall go from Mont Gaulfier to the Aventine,
There will be a man advising them from under the hole.
The booty shall be seized between the two rocks,
And the glory of the sixth celibate shall wither."
If you say this predicts the first flight, we will take your word for that. I don't see any reference to a flight or to a person name Montgolfier. And this sounds way more cryptic than Daniel's prophecy.
Nostradamus also predicted that the human race would not be destroyed and would experience peace from 1713 forward.
The only reliable source of prophecy is the Bible.
"Your whole premise would be more believable had not other Christians, who were just as devout and convinced as you are, seen the fulfillment of the Biblical prophecies in other times and other ways. Christians have been seeing the fulfillment of the prophecies since Biblical times. With two thousand years of history to look back on it would nearly impossible NOT to find ways to declare the prophecies fulfilled."
It is true that other generation of Christians have looked at the same prophecies and wondered would End Times occur within their lifetimes. In NONE of those previous generations did Jews exist as a political state. Until 1948, Jews were citizens of other countries. The establishment of Israel was a critical event in End Times prophecy. During past generations, Christians looked toward the stablishment of some sort of Jewish state, perhaps within their lifetime, realizing a Jewish state was a requirement of End Times.
As to Nostradamus, the exact wording of this prediction follows:
"When a [French] army shall go from Mont Gaulfier to the Aventine,
There will be a man advising them from under the hole.
The booty shall be seized between the two rocks,
And the glory of the sixth celibate shall wither."
If you say this predicts the first flight, we will take your word for that. I don't see any reference to a flight or to a person name Montgolfier. And this sounds way more cryptic than Daniel's prophecy.
Nostradamus also predicted that the human race would not be destroyed and would experience peace from 1713 forward.
The only reliable source of prophecy is the Bible.
invest07
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The Bible as a reliable book of science, Part 1
The Bible, when interpreted properly, is a source of information that has been many generations ahead of it’s time.
Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
The Bible clearly says that the human body is composed of the same elements as the earth. And, upon death, our bodies will return to an elemental state.
These verses were authored by Moses circa 1450 BC. These verses was laughed at by the secular scientific community until the 1800’s. By 1869, there were 63 elements discovered. As the number of elements grew, scientists began to recognize certain patterns in properties and began to develop classification schemes. The result of this was the Periodic Table. The development of the Periodic Table was significant in that it defined known elements and the idea that all matter was composed of these elements (or a combination) began to take hold in the mind of scientists.
Genesis 2:7 and 3:19 were written over 3,000 years before the Periodic table was developed.
These 2 verses are prophetic of a scientific concept which we now accept without question. And the Bible said it 3,000 years before science did..
The Bible, when interpreted properly, is a source of information that has been many generations ahead of it’s time.
Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
The Bible clearly says that the human body is composed of the same elements as the earth. And, upon death, our bodies will return to an elemental state.
These verses were authored by Moses circa 1450 BC. These verses was laughed at by the secular scientific community until the 1800’s. By 1869, there were 63 elements discovered. As the number of elements grew, scientists began to recognize certain patterns in properties and began to develop classification schemes. The result of this was the Periodic Table. The development of the Periodic Table was significant in that it defined known elements and the idea that all matter was composed of these elements (or a combination) began to take hold in the mind of scientists.
Genesis 2:7 and 3:19 were written over 3,000 years before the Periodic table was developed.
These 2 verses are prophetic of a scientific concept which we now accept without question. And the Bible said it 3,000 years before science did..
vyo476
Well-Known Member
This is most likely a description of decomposition, something perfectly observeable in nature. Someone died, they stuck his body in the ground, and then a while later they went back and checked on it (for whatever reason) only to discover that it had rotted away. So they observed this, and then drew an Aristotelian conclusion.
I did a little background reading and the word "dust" could also potentially mean "earth" or "dirt" (because of the origianal Hebrew word used, "`âfâr"). At least that settles what type of "dust" we're talking about (although I doubt domestic dust had such a big role in the Bible).
The word "element" is not even used in the passage. This does not constitute "clarity." In fact, the passage has nothing to do with what the dust itself is made of. It just says, "you're made of dust." Not, "you and dust are made of the same stuff."
Yeah, the Periodic Table was formed...and we're still not made of dust. Look, here's a list of the elements that comprise the human body:
http://web2.airmail.net/uthman/elements_of_body.html
Find me a soil that contains all those elements and then we'll talk. You might find that difficult:
http://www.answers.com/topic/soil-chemistry?cat=technology
Notice that while the carbon-nitrogen ratio is more or less accurate for humanity, the nitrogen-phosphorus/nitrogen-sulfur ratio is all wrong. As organic materials, soil and humanity share a number of similarities, but people aren't made out of dirt. We're made out of some of the same stuff - but not all. And God didn't say, "From dust you came (as well as large amounts of potassium, calcium, and chlorine, which came from somewhere else)."
invest07
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The Bible as a reliable book of science, Part 2
The Water Cycle
Job 26:7
He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight.
Job 36:27-29
He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind.
There are many similar verses in the Bible describing the cycle of water on earth. These verses describe the water cycle in a specific and understandable way. The water cycle was studied and finally documented by scientists about 300 years ago. The relationship of steam and evaporated water was not fully understood until concepts of the 3 states of matter became established. Why clouds held water for a period of time and then released it (in the form of rain, snow, hail or sleet) was a matter for speculation until about 1900.
The Bible beat science to the truth by over 3500 years.
The Water Cycle
Job 26:7
He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight.
Job 36:27-29
He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind.
There are many similar verses in the Bible describing the cycle of water on earth. These verses describe the water cycle in a specific and understandable way. The water cycle was studied and finally documented by scientists about 300 years ago. The relationship of steam and evaporated water was not fully understood until concepts of the 3 states of matter became established. Why clouds held water for a period of time and then released it (in the form of rain, snow, hail or sleet) was a matter for speculation until about 1900.
The Bible beat science to the truth by over 3500 years.
Why do you chat such utter rubbish?
He draws up the drops of water.... Wow, they observed evaporation
which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind... even better, they observed rain!
invest07
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vyo 476
"It just says, "you're made of dust." Not, "you and dust are made of the same stuff."
I guess I'm just a hick from the sticks so I don't see a difference here.
The term Dust is subject to trenslation from the original Hebrew. Any writing from 3500 years ago sounds funny today. Everything thing that is matter is composed of the same elements. Everything that makes up dust or dirt is contained in the human body, perhaps only in trace amounts but it is there. Take a look at the contents of any multi-vitamin. Those minerals (all are elements or compound elements) are what various parts of your body contain. Dust (or dirt) also contains water, air and micro organisms such as mites and bacteria. All of these are in your body.
You are right in that Moses did not use the word "element". The first element to be chemically discovered and verified was in 1669. Before that, I doubt anyone used the term "element" because no one really knew what an element was.
"It just says, "you're made of dust." Not, "you and dust are made of the same stuff."
I guess I'm just a hick from the sticks so I don't see a difference here.
The term Dust is subject to trenslation from the original Hebrew. Any writing from 3500 years ago sounds funny today. Everything thing that is matter is composed of the same elements. Everything that makes up dust or dirt is contained in the human body, perhaps only in trace amounts but it is there. Take a look at the contents of any multi-vitamin. Those minerals (all are elements or compound elements) are what various parts of your body contain. Dust (or dirt) also contains water, air and micro organisms such as mites and bacteria. All of these are in your body.
You are right in that Moses did not use the word "element". The first element to be chemically discovered and verified was in 1669. Before that, I doubt anyone used the term "element" because no one really knew what an element was.
vyo476
Well-Known Member
Once again, this is simple Aristotelian deductive thinking. People saw rain falling out of clouds; they figured that the rain was being stored there and that eventually as the amount of water got large enough the clouds would "burst" and it would rain. They applied the same deductive thinking to clouds as they would to a waterskin - fill it loosely, it holds, fill it too full, it bursts and the water falls out.
Also, this is far from a full description of the water cycle, as there is no mention of evaporation, and the concept of condensation is relegated to simple storage of water in clouds when clouds are, in fact, composed primarily of water themselves.
Finally, there is nothing here that people could not have deduced simply from looking out the window. There's nothing prescient about the passage you provided; if they'd discussed more complex concepts that aren't directly observable by the human eye from the ground (like how condensation forms clouds) then maybe you'd have something.
invest07
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The Water Cycle - more details
Vyo476 and Sublime
Job 26:7 He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight.”
Job 36:27-29, “He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind.”
There are many similar verses in the Bible describing the cycle of water on earth. These verses describe the water cycle in a straight forward, specific and understandable way. The author clearly understands clouds hold water and that waterin the clouds comes from surface water. The author understands that rain is moisture and that it falls from clouds. The author understands and that the fallen rain runs off the land and collects into streams. We are able to infer the author understands gravity (rain falls) and that the collection of rain ends with streams flowing into the sea. In two sentences, the author sums up this important scientific concept.
The Biblical description from Job of the water cycle seems ridiculously obvious to us today, in the 3rd millennium AD. I learned about the water cycle in grade school. We have all understood from an early age, the 3 states of water and have all seen liquid water turn to gaseous water (steam). We have all seen solid water (ice) melt and become liquid. We have all seen water droplets condense on the outside of a cool glass out of the air. We understand today that clouds are primarily water vapor and rain falls when certain atmospheric conditions are present. But this entire cycle was not understood by the Western scientific establishment until the 16th century.
A brief history of human knowledge of the water cycle is at this web site:
http://www.unesco.org.uy/phi/libros/histwater/1history.html
To understand how profound this verse really is, consider the way other ancient civilizations looked at water, rain and weather: (quoted from Wikipedia)
Chinese. “Since Lei Gong's specialty is thunder, he has assistants capable of producing other types of heavenly phenomena. Tian-mu (“Mother of Lightning”), for example, uses flashing mirrors to send bolts of lightning across the sky. Yun Tong (“Cloud Youth”) whips up clouds, and Yu-zi (“Rain Master”) causes downpours by dipping his sword into a pot. Roaring winds rush forth from a type of goatskin bag manipulated by Feng Bo (“Earl of Wind”), who was later transformed into Feng Po Po (“Madame Wind”). She rides a tiger among the clouds.
India. Vritra, an asura, stole all the water in the world and Indra drank much Soma to prepare himself for the battle with the huge serpent. He passed through Vritra's ninety-nine fortresses, slew the monster and brought water back to Earth.
Mayan. Chaac (also rendered as Chaak or Chac) is the originally Yucatec name of the Maya rain deity. With his lightning axe, Chaac strikes the clouds and produces thunder. Particularly the Huaxtec Mayas have a cyclical concept of the water. Virile, young lightning deities dominating the skies during the rainy season are transformed into wasted, subterranean old men (Mamlab) during the dry season; in the ocean, the old men rejuvenate themselves again.
Greek. Tefnut was the goddess for rain, dew and moisture and was the second to be made by Atum next to her twin brother Shu, the air god. With their parents earth-god Geb and sky goddess Nut, they made a quartet of earth, air, sky and water. Tefnut and her husband Shu were the children of Atum who created them by masturbating.
Roman. His weapon (Zeus) is, of course the thunderbolt which he hurled at whoever displeased him. The thunderbolts were fashioned for him by the three Cyclopes who also were the deciding power in the battle with the Titans.”
Other ancient civilizations looked at water and rain and had no clue what was really happening. They saw water and rain not as weather behaving in a predictable way according to natural laws, but as wildly fantastic mythology. (My personal favorite is the conception of Tefnut due to her father masturbating). The verse from Job stands in sharp contrast to other ancient beliefs. The verse from Job is a straight forward description of what happens to water, with no mythology or mysticism. Just the facts.
Job is the only book of the Bible in which the authorship and date of writing are not positively documented. Many scholars believe the social order described is typical of the time of Abraham, circa 2000 BC. The water cycle is precisely described in Job over 3500 years before we, in the West, were able to understand it.
It is ironic that the Bible’s description of the water cycle is so clear and precise to us today, 4000 years after it was written, that we consider the verse obvious and no big deal. Contrast the Bible’s description with the Mayan or Greek and the difference is glowingly obvious. The bible beat science to the truth by almost 4000 years.
The Bible is a reliable source of scientific information. Many verses contain information that was verified in the West thousands of years later. Accurate information that is recorded thousands of years in advance of scientific verification is a form of prophecy. If the Bible contains accurate scientific information, revealed thousands of years before verification by science, it is reasonable to conclude that other prophecies, which describe future events, are also accurate.
More on this topic to follow.
Vyo476 and Sublime
Job 26:7 He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight.”
Job 36:27-29, “He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind.”
There are many similar verses in the Bible describing the cycle of water on earth. These verses describe the water cycle in a straight forward, specific and understandable way. The author clearly understands clouds hold water and that waterin the clouds comes from surface water. The author understands that rain is moisture and that it falls from clouds. The author understands and that the fallen rain runs off the land and collects into streams. We are able to infer the author understands gravity (rain falls) and that the collection of rain ends with streams flowing into the sea. In two sentences, the author sums up this important scientific concept.
The Biblical description from Job of the water cycle seems ridiculously obvious to us today, in the 3rd millennium AD. I learned about the water cycle in grade school. We have all understood from an early age, the 3 states of water and have all seen liquid water turn to gaseous water (steam). We have all seen solid water (ice) melt and become liquid. We have all seen water droplets condense on the outside of a cool glass out of the air. We understand today that clouds are primarily water vapor and rain falls when certain atmospheric conditions are present. But this entire cycle was not understood by the Western scientific establishment until the 16th century.
A brief history of human knowledge of the water cycle is at this web site:
http://www.unesco.org.uy/phi/libros/histwater/1history.html
To understand how profound this verse really is, consider the way other ancient civilizations looked at water, rain and weather: (quoted from Wikipedia)
Chinese. “Since Lei Gong's specialty is thunder, he has assistants capable of producing other types of heavenly phenomena. Tian-mu (“Mother of Lightning”), for example, uses flashing mirrors to send bolts of lightning across the sky. Yun Tong (“Cloud Youth”) whips up clouds, and Yu-zi (“Rain Master”) causes downpours by dipping his sword into a pot. Roaring winds rush forth from a type of goatskin bag manipulated by Feng Bo (“Earl of Wind”), who was later transformed into Feng Po Po (“Madame Wind”). She rides a tiger among the clouds.
India. Vritra, an asura, stole all the water in the world and Indra drank much Soma to prepare himself for the battle with the huge serpent. He passed through Vritra's ninety-nine fortresses, slew the monster and brought water back to Earth.
Mayan. Chaac (also rendered as Chaak or Chac) is the originally Yucatec name of the Maya rain deity. With his lightning axe, Chaac strikes the clouds and produces thunder. Particularly the Huaxtec Mayas have a cyclical concept of the water. Virile, young lightning deities dominating the skies during the rainy season are transformed into wasted, subterranean old men (Mamlab) during the dry season; in the ocean, the old men rejuvenate themselves again.
Greek. Tefnut was the goddess for rain, dew and moisture and was the second to be made by Atum next to her twin brother Shu, the air god. With their parents earth-god Geb and sky goddess Nut, they made a quartet of earth, air, sky and water. Tefnut and her husband Shu were the children of Atum who created them by masturbating.
Roman. His weapon (Zeus) is, of course the thunderbolt which he hurled at whoever displeased him. The thunderbolts were fashioned for him by the three Cyclopes who also were the deciding power in the battle with the Titans.”
Other ancient civilizations looked at water and rain and had no clue what was really happening. They saw water and rain not as weather behaving in a predictable way according to natural laws, but as wildly fantastic mythology. (My personal favorite is the conception of Tefnut due to her father masturbating). The verse from Job stands in sharp contrast to other ancient beliefs. The verse from Job is a straight forward description of what happens to water, with no mythology or mysticism. Just the facts.
Job is the only book of the Bible in which the authorship and date of writing are not positively documented. Many scholars believe the social order described is typical of the time of Abraham, circa 2000 BC. The water cycle is precisely described in Job over 3500 years before we, in the West, were able to understand it.
It is ironic that the Bible’s description of the water cycle is so clear and precise to us today, 4000 years after it was written, that we consider the verse obvious and no big deal. Contrast the Bible’s description with the Mayan or Greek and the difference is glowingly obvious. The bible beat science to the truth by almost 4000 years.
The Bible is a reliable source of scientific information. Many verses contain information that was verified in the West thousands of years later. Accurate information that is recorded thousands of years in advance of scientific verification is a form of prophecy. If the Bible contains accurate scientific information, revealed thousands of years before verification by science, it is reasonable to conclude that other prophecies, which describe future events, are also accurate.
More on this topic to follow.
Job 26:7 He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight.”
Job 36:27-29, “He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind.”
There are many similar verses in the Bible describing the cycle of water on earth. These verses describe the water cycle in a straight forward, specific and understandable way. The author clearly understands clouds hold water and that waterin the clouds comes from surface water. The author understands that rain is moisture and that it falls from clouds. The author understands and that the fallen rain runs off the land and collects into streams. We are able to infer the author understands gravity (rain falls) and that the collection of rain ends with streams flowing into the sea. In two sentences, the author sums up this important scientific concept.
OK, once again I will show you that you are giving them far too much credit. The authors understanding is, as vyo said, possible to deduce from looking out the window. The rain falls out the cloud has nothing to do with them understanding gravity, it just requires them to note what direction the rain is travelling in.
The Biblical description from Job of the water cycle seems ridiculously obvious to us today, in the 3rd millennium AD. I learned about the water cycle in grade school. We have all understood from an early age, the 3 states of water and have all seen liquid water turn to gaseous water (steam). We have all seen solid water (ice) melt and become liquid. We have all seen water droplets condense on the outside of a cool glass out of the air. We understand today that clouds are primarily water vapor and rain falls when certain atmospheric conditions are present. But this entire cycle was not understood by the Western scientific establishment until the 16th century.
Show me where exactly Job mentions anything which shows an understand of the three states of matter.
To understand how profound this verse really is, consider the way other ancient civilizations looked at water, rain and weather: (quoted from Wikipedia)
It is ironic that the Bible’s description of the water cycle is so clear and precise to us today, 4000 years after it was written, that we consider the verse obvious and no big deal. Contrast the Bible’s description with the Mayan or Greek and the difference is glowingly obvious. The bible beat science to the truth by almost 4000 years.
So to give Job credit he doesn't deserve, you discredit other socities wrong interpretations? It doesn't make him any more correct. Incidientally, those examples from other cultures are not taken directly from scriptures, but are summaries, so they are not really accurate representations of their understanding.
Also, the Greeks seemed to have a clear understanding of the different states of water according to your sources (moisture etc.), something Job doesn't actually point out.
Job is the only book of the Bible in which the authorship and date of writing are not positively documented. Many scholars believe the social order described is typical of the time of Abraham, circa 2000 BC. The water cycle is precisely described in Job over 3500 years before we, in the West, were able to understand it.
So because the source and date of the text are not known, that makes it more reliable and obviously the word of God? You don't know who wrote it, or when, but because someone else told you to believe it is the word of God you trust them and believe it is. If you hadn't been brainwashed from birth you would realise how ridiculous your trust of it is.
The Bible is a reliable source of scientific information. Many verses contain information that was verified in the West thousands of years later. Accurate information that is recorded thousands of years in advance of scientific verification is a form of prophecy. If the Bible contains accurate scientific information, revealed thousands of years before verification by science, it is reasonable to conclude that other prophecies, which describe future events, are also accurate.
Wow wow wow. Slow down. You really are a brainwashed hick arn't you? Reliable scienfitic document??? I think it's anything but a reliable scientific document.
A reliable scientific document can be verified and written by people with some kind of expertise in the field. Not people with no real scientific knowledge millenia ago.
Reliable scientific documents are backed up by something called proof, not faith. Proof is done through long testing, observation and deduction, not by staring out your window, praying to God or making it up on the spot, which much of Christian religion text seems to be comprised of. Faith is a religious copout used to make absoloute unfounded assumptions seem like well founded truths.
Reliable scientific documents can have their data or at least source traced. Not annoynomous people millenia ago.
More on this topic to follow.
I look foward to hearing it.
Job 36:27-29, “He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind.”
There are many similar verses in the Bible describing the cycle of water on earth. These verses describe the water cycle in a straight forward, specific and understandable way. The author clearly understands clouds hold water and that waterin the clouds comes from surface water. The author understands that rain is moisture and that it falls from clouds. The author understands and that the fallen rain runs off the land and collects into streams. We are able to infer the author understands gravity (rain falls) and that the collection of rain ends with streams flowing into the sea. In two sentences, the author sums up this important scientific concept.
OK, once again I will show you that you are giving them far too much credit. The authors understanding is, as vyo said, possible to deduce from looking out the window. The rain falls out the cloud has nothing to do with them understanding gravity, it just requires them to note what direction the rain is travelling in.
The Biblical description from Job of the water cycle seems ridiculously obvious to us today, in the 3rd millennium AD. I learned about the water cycle in grade school. We have all understood from an early age, the 3 states of water and have all seen liquid water turn to gaseous water (steam). We have all seen solid water (ice) melt and become liquid. We have all seen water droplets condense on the outside of a cool glass out of the air. We understand today that clouds are primarily water vapor and rain falls when certain atmospheric conditions are present. But this entire cycle was not understood by the Western scientific establishment until the 16th century.
Show me where exactly Job mentions anything which shows an understand of the three states of matter.
To understand how profound this verse really is, consider the way other ancient civilizations looked at water, rain and weather: (quoted from Wikipedia)
It is ironic that the Bible’s description of the water cycle is so clear and precise to us today, 4000 years after it was written, that we consider the verse obvious and no big deal. Contrast the Bible’s description with the Mayan or Greek and the difference is glowingly obvious. The bible beat science to the truth by almost 4000 years.
So to give Job credit he doesn't deserve, you discredit other socities wrong interpretations? It doesn't make him any more correct. Incidientally, those examples from other cultures are not taken directly from scriptures, but are summaries, so they are not really accurate representations of their understanding.
Also, the Greeks seemed to have a clear understanding of the different states of water according to your sources (moisture etc.), something Job doesn't actually point out.
Job is the only book of the Bible in which the authorship and date of writing are not positively documented. Many scholars believe the social order described is typical of the time of Abraham, circa 2000 BC. The water cycle is precisely described in Job over 3500 years before we, in the West, were able to understand it.
So because the source and date of the text are not known, that makes it more reliable and obviously the word of God? You don't know who wrote it, or when, but because someone else told you to believe it is the word of God you trust them and believe it is. If you hadn't been brainwashed from birth you would realise how ridiculous your trust of it is.
The Bible is a reliable source of scientific information. Many verses contain information that was verified in the West thousands of years later. Accurate information that is recorded thousands of years in advance of scientific verification is a form of prophecy. If the Bible contains accurate scientific information, revealed thousands of years before verification by science, it is reasonable to conclude that other prophecies, which describe future events, are also accurate.
Wow wow wow. Slow down. You really are a brainwashed hick arn't you? Reliable scienfitic document??? I think it's anything but a reliable scientific document.
A reliable scientific document can be verified and written by people with some kind of expertise in the field. Not people with no real scientific knowledge millenia ago.
Reliable scientific documents are backed up by something called proof, not faith. Proof is done through long testing, observation and deduction, not by staring out your window, praying to God or making it up on the spot, which much of Christian religion text seems to be comprised of. Faith is a religious copout used to make absoloute unfounded assumptions seem like well founded truths.
Reliable scientific documents can have their data or at least source traced. Not annoynomous people millenia ago.
More on this topic to follow.
I look foward to hearing it.
vyo476
Well-Known Member
The author believes clouds hold water; he does not endeavor to prove it. Why does he believe this? He sees water falling out of the clouds. He then sees it running off into streams. Once again, he's not addressing any complicated issues here. You can't just say that he understands gravity because he's talking about something falling; the fact that he says that rain is water falling only means that his eyes are open.
And the entire cycle was not understood in the Bible. Where's the talk of condensation? How does condensation involve "wrapping up"?
First of all, you're purporting that the Bible is fact; how can you justify calling other mythologies "wildly fantastic" while claiming the Bible as a source of literal information?
Second of all, the various mythologies you've posted are so much more complicated than you give them credit for (Greek mythology, for instance, uses personification as a means of conveying a sense of natural order - it's not "wrong," it's just not literal). It's easy to discredit something through deliberate misinterpretation. You, yourself have had to preface several of your own posts by saying that the Bible is scientifically accurate only when interpreted correctly.
And yet, if you asked people in 800 AD if rain falls, they'd probably say yes.
Perhaps, using only Biblical sources, then, you can describe gravity to me. Beyond simply stating that things fall.
So far, the things you've provided are either vague prophecies that are tailored to fit any number of generic situations and passages that contain little more than casual observation. The Bible relies on purely Aristotelian "science" and does not include empiricism, which is the hallmark of science. The Bible describes plenty of things that science would later explain (like the water cycle) but this is wholly unremarkable.
invest07
Well-Known Member
- Joined
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The Bible as reliable science: The Earth and Space
Job 26:10 He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters
Proverbs 8:27 When he drew a circle on the face of the deep
Isaiah 40:22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth and its inhabitants (people) are like grasshoppers.
Job 26:7 He stretches out the north over empty space. He hangs the earth on nothing.
Isaiah was written circa 850 BC. Job is believed to have been written circa 2,000 BC. Proverbs was written by Solomon circa 950 BC.
These verses, and others in the Bible, reveal important scientific facts about our planet and it‘s relation to space. These facts were not verified by western science until after 1500 AD.
1. The earth is round (circular in profile)
2. The earth is located in space (nothingness) and is not suspended with any physical support
3. The size of the earth is great and people are relatively small by comparison
4. Space is relatively empty
5. Gravity can be inferred by a spherical earth shape.
Columbus read these verses. Then he stood on the docks and observed that ship’s sails were the last thing to disappear over the horizon. He observed sails as the final visible part of the ship when the ship’s direction was north, south or west. He became convinced that the earth must be spherical in shape. The accepted scientific belief, since the time of the ancient Greeks, was that the earth was flat. Columbus read the Bible, used his eyes and brain and knew the “scientists” were wrong. The rest is history. What had been accepted as science for 2,000 years was now verified as mythology.
The Bible beat science to the truth by a few thousand years. This is another example of the Bible as a practical book of science and also an example of Biblical Prophecy which has been verified by western science.
Job 26:10 He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters
Proverbs 8:27 When he drew a circle on the face of the deep
Isaiah 40:22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth and its inhabitants (people) are like grasshoppers.
Job 26:7 He stretches out the north over empty space. He hangs the earth on nothing.
Isaiah was written circa 850 BC. Job is believed to have been written circa 2,000 BC. Proverbs was written by Solomon circa 950 BC.
These verses, and others in the Bible, reveal important scientific facts about our planet and it‘s relation to space. These facts were not verified by western science until after 1500 AD.
1. The earth is round (circular in profile)
2. The earth is located in space (nothingness) and is not suspended with any physical support
3. The size of the earth is great and people are relatively small by comparison
4. Space is relatively empty
5. Gravity can be inferred by a spherical earth shape.
Columbus read these verses. Then he stood on the docks and observed that ship’s sails were the last thing to disappear over the horizon. He observed sails as the final visible part of the ship when the ship’s direction was north, south or west. He became convinced that the earth must be spherical in shape. The accepted scientific belief, since the time of the ancient Greeks, was that the earth was flat. Columbus read the Bible, used his eyes and brain and knew the “scientists” were wrong. The rest is history. What had been accepted as science for 2,000 years was now verified as mythology.
The Bible beat science to the truth by a few thousand years. This is another example of the Bible as a practical book of science and also an example of Biblical Prophecy which has been verified by western science.
invest07
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"A reliable scientific document can be verified and written by people with some kind of expertise in the field.
Reliable scientific documents are backed up by something called proof, not faith. Proof is done through long testing, observation and deduction."
This is precisely the point I am making.
The statements made in Job have been verified using testing, observation and deduction. The possibility that Job (or whoever wrote Job) knew zero about science is even more support that the inspiration for the verses was divine in nature.
It is easy for us to dismiss these verses in Job as simplistic. But people of 4000 years ago had no scientific background upon which to draw conclusions. The scientific process and the thinking it entailed would not be invented for 1500 years. The predominant thinking about water, rain and weather of ancient people can be studied by studying their beliefs. And even the Greeks believed a bunch of wacky mythology with no relationship whatsoever to reality. And let's not forget that Job is believed to have been written 1500 years before the Greeks, during even more primitive times.
Regardless of how you may dismiss these verses, they have been verified as true.
Denying the truth of these verses does not make them untrue or less true. I stand behind my statement that the Bible is a reliable book of science and that the Bible revealed scientific truths to man thousands of years before science was able to verify them.
"A reliable scientific document can be verified and written by people with some kind of expertise in the field.
Reliable scientific documents are backed up by something called proof, not faith. Proof is done through long testing, observation and deduction."
This is precisely the point I am making.
The statements made in Job have been verified using testing, observation and deduction. The possibility that Job (or whoever wrote Job) knew zero about science is even more support that the inspiration for the verses was divine in nature.
It is easy for us to dismiss these verses in Job as simplistic. But people of 4000 years ago had no scientific background upon which to draw conclusions. The scientific process and the thinking it entailed would not be invented for 1500 years. The predominant thinking about water, rain and weather of ancient people can be studied by studying their beliefs. And even the Greeks believed a bunch of wacky mythology with no relationship whatsoever to reality. And let's not forget that Job is believed to have been written 1500 years before the Greeks, during even more primitive times.
Regardless of how you may dismiss these verses, they have been verified as true.
Denying the truth of these verses does not make them untrue or less true. I stand behind my statement that the Bible is a reliable book of science and that the Bible revealed scientific truths to man thousands of years before science was able to verify them.
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This is categorically false.
The Ptolemaic Egyptians and the Arabs had both used line of sight mathematical calculations to determine that the Earth was round for hundreds of years before Colombus sailed.
Among the educated of Colombus's time, it was an accepted fact that the Earth was round. Only the uneducated peasants and coastal sailors believed that the Earth was flat. Colombus didn't discover that the Earth was round.
The significance of Colombus is that he disproved the calculations that the Earth was much smaller than we know it now. The scientists of his time believed that there was a relatively small ocean between Europe and the Eastern Coast of Asia, but they had there calculations very wrong.
The Bible didn't enter into it. Colombus's crossing and the shape of the Earth had already been discovered by Islamic and Egyptian/Greek geometry and calculus.
This is categorically false.
The Ptolemaic Egyptians and the Arabs had both used line of sight mathematical calculations to determine that the Earth was round for hundreds of years before Colombus sailed.
Among the educated of Colombus's time, it was an accepted fact that the Earth was round. Only the uneducated peasants and coastal sailors believed that the Earth was flat. Colombus didn't discover that the Earth was round.
The significance of Colombus is that he disproved the calculations that the Earth was much smaller than we know it now. The scientists of his time believed that there was a relatively small ocean between Europe and the Eastern Coast of Asia, but they had there calculations very wrong.
The Bible didn't enter into it. Colombus's crossing and the shape of the Earth had already been discovered by Islamic and Egyptian/Greek geometry and calculus.
