Anti-Theism in America

What I can tell you Senator Obama and his wife Michelle are good, Christian, family people. They raise there daughters in the mainstream Christian faith. They believe Jesus Christ died for our sins. They have a love and a faith in God.

Which still ignores the fact he has view completely opposed to the teachings of Christ. Why is this so hard for you?

If I went around claiming I was liberal, yet hold nearly all positions opposed to liberals, wouldn't you say I wasn't really a liberal? Why then can you even try and claim someone who holds positions opposed to the Bible, is somehow a "christian"? That makes no logical sense.
 
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Which still ignores the fact he has view completely opposed to the teachings of Christ. Why is this so hard for you?

If I went around claiming I was liberal, yet hold nearly all positions opposed to liberals, wouldn't you say I wasn't really a liberal? Why then can you even try and claim someone who holds positions opposed to the Bible, is somehow a "christian"? That makes no logical sense.

And still there would be those who would say if he didn't speak in tongues and believe in your snake oil salesmen Evangelists that wouldn't be good enough either.

Get used to it Andy. Just because someone thinks you're full of sh1t doesn't mean they aren't religious enough. And it certainly doesn't mean they don't have great faith, believe Jesus Christ died for their sins and worship and love God.

Might want to keep this in mind...

You yourself don't want to be caught out trying to get into heaven just to have the big guy say, almost Andy... everything but JUDGE NOT LEAST YE BE JUDGED.
;)
 
JUDGE NOT LEAST YE BE JUDGED.

Of course your "Progressive" nature allows you to be exempt from this rule... thats how Progressives can pass judgment on Republicans and Conservatives, through a very handy double standard.

Dont agree with the bible or Christ? Screw em! Do your own thing!
You can still call yourself a Christian, after all, who are others to judge?

I think this is why I had to refute the claim that Hitler was a Catholic... People seem to think you can IGNORE whatever Catholicism teaches, substitute your own belief system (one thats more convenient) and code of conduct, and still get to call yourself, and be considered, a Catholic.

Thats even worse than being an Anti-Theist... Gave Catholics who follow their teachings a bad name while providing fuel for the Anti-Theists who seek to destroy the religion being mocked by one of its "So called" followers.
 
And still there would be those who would say if he didn't speak in tongues and believe in your snake oil salesmen Evangelists that wouldn't be good enough either.

Get used to it Andy. Just because someone thinks you're full of sh1t doesn't mean they aren't religious enough. And it certainly doesn't mean they don't have great faith, believe Jesus Christ died for their sins and worship and love God.

Might want to keep this in mind...

You yourself don't want to be caught out trying to get into heaven just to have the big guy say, almost Andy... everything but JUDGE NOT LEAST YE BE JUDGED.
;)

You are missing a very important point. Who defines what Christianity is? You are basing those claims on what random people have said. Is random people saying you need to speak in tongues or whatever, the basis of Christianity? No it is not.

Christ defines Christianity. What he said is what matters.

"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?" -Jesus in Luke 6:46

You are not a 'christian' because you sit in a pew. Nor because you happen to say 'Jesus is cool', or even because you raise a decent family. You are a Christian because you claim Jesus as your Lord... AND... do the things he says. You can not claim Jesus as your Lord, and then ignore everything your Lord says to do, and not do.

And by the way, I am not the one judging because these are not my words. They are words of God himself in human form, the risen Christ. So I know without the slightest doubt, that I am not in error for pointing out the truth.
 
Of course your "Progressive" nature allows you to be exempt from this rule... thats how Progressives can pass judgment on Republicans and Conservatives, through a very handy double standard.

Dont agree with the bible or Christ? Screw em! Do your own thing!
You can still call yourself a Christian, after all, who are others to judge?

I think this is why I had to refute the claim that Hitler was a Catholic... People seem to think you can IGNORE whatever Catholicism teaches, substitute your own belief system (one thats more convenient) and code of conduct, and still get to call yourself, and be considered, a Catholic.

Thats even worse than being an Anti-Theist... Gave Catholics who follow their teachings a bad name while providing fuel for the Anti-Theists who seek to destroy the religion being mocked by one of its "So called" followers.

Excellent point, and another reason I could never be a democrat. Do you see republicans or people on the right, running around blaming all democrats for those eco-nutz who burned down McDs in the name of saving nature? Do you see religious people blaming all atheist for Columbine? Not really. They might point out the connection, but I not see similar hysteric chants like repugs are going to destroy the planet, or the religious people are going to start another crusade.

Hypocrisy, the trade market of the left.
 
GenSeneca;58976]Of course your "Progressive" nature allows you to be exempt from this rule... thats how Progressives can pass judgment on Republicans and Conservatives, through a very handy double standard.

Dont agree with the bible or Christ? Screw em! Do your own thing!
You can still call yourself a Christian, after all, who are others to judge?

I think this is why I had to refute the claim that Hitler was a Catholic...

This will be easy... watch...

GenSeneca show us where I said Hitler WAS a Catholic. Should be real easy unless you just make stuff up all the time. Just go back and pull the quote where I sad... Hitler WAS a Catholic.

Go on now >>>>>>>>>
 
This will be easy... watch...

GenSeneca show us where I said Hitler WAS a Catholic. Should be real easy unless you just make stuff up all the time. Just go back and pull the quote where I sad... Hitler WAS a Catholic.

Go on now >>>>>>>>>

Your right, this will be easy... I never said YOU said it, just that I had to REFUTE it.

What else you got? Perhaps you can find something to copy and paste from Mr. Rothenberg.... :rolleyes:
 
You are missing a very important point. Who defines what Christianity is? You are basing those claims on what random people have said. Is random people saying you need to speak in tongues or whatever, the basis of Christianity? No it is not.

Christ defines Christianity. What he said is what matters.

"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?" -Jesus in Luke 6:46

You are not a 'christian' because you sit in a pew. Nor because you happen to say 'Jesus is cool', or even because you raise a decent family. You are a Christian because you claim Jesus as your Lord... AND... do the things he says. You can not claim Jesus as your Lord, and then ignore everything your Lord says to do, and not do.

And by the way, I am not the one judging because these are not my words. They are words of God himself in human form, the risen Christ. So I know without the slightest doubt, that I am not in error for pointing out the truth.

What you are is so full of BS that you can't see straight.:)

The Bible is riddled with repetitions and contradictions, things that the Bible bangers would be quick to point out in anything that they want to criticize. For instance, Genesis 1 and 2 disagree about the order in which things are created, and how satisfied God is about the results of his labors. The flood story is really two interwoven stories that contradict each other on how many of each kind of animal are to be brought into the Ark--is it one pair each or seven pairs each of the "clean" ones? The Gospel of John disagrees with the other three Gospels on the activities of Jesus Christ (how long had he stayed in Jerusalem--a couple of days or a whole year?) and all four Gospels contradict each other on the details of Jesus Christ's last moments and resurrection. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke contradict each other on the genealogy of Jesus Christ's father; though both agree that Joseph was not his real father. Repetitions and contradictions are understandable for a hodgepodge collection of documents, but not for some carefully constructed treatise, reflecting a well-thought-out plan.

Of the various methods I've seen to "explain" these:

1. "That is to be taken metaphorically." In other words, what is written is not what is meant. I find this entertaining, especially for those who decide what ISN'T to be taken as other than the absolute WORD OF GOD--which just happens to agree with the particular thing they happen to want...

2. "There was more there than...." This is used when one verse says "there was a" and another says "there was b," so they decide there was "a" AND "b"--which is said nowhere. This makes them happy, since it doesn't say there WASN'T "a+b." But it doesn't say there was "a+b+little green martians." This is often the same crowd that insists theirs is the ONLY possible interpretation (i.e., only "a") and the only way. I find it entertaining they they don't mind adding to verses.

3. "It has to be understood in context." I find this amusing because it comes from the same crowd that likes to push likewise extracted verses that support their particular view. Often it is just one of the verses in the contradictory set which is supposed to be taken as THE TRUTH when, if you add more to it, it suddenly becomes "out of context." How many of you have gotten JUST John 3:16 (taken out of all context) thrown at you?

4. "There was just a copying/writing error." This is sometimes called a "transcription error," as in where one number was meant and an incorrect one was copied down. Or what was "quoted" wasn't really what was said, but just what the author thought was said. And that's right--I'm not disagreeing with events, I'm disagreeing with what is WRITTEN. Which is apparently agreed that it is incorrect. This is an amusing misdirection to the problem that the Bible itself is wrong.

5. "That is a miracle." Naturally. That is why it is stated as fact.

6. "God works in mysterious ways." A useful dodge when the speaker doesn't understand the conflict between what the Bible SAYS and what they WISH it said.

In other word preach that BS somewhere else because I ain't buyin' it!:D
 
Hitler's Religion
by Anne Nicol Gaylor

The first legislative hearing I ever attended was in the mid-1960's at the Wisconsin capital, and the subject was the modernization of Wisconsin's birth control law. Wisconsin, the last state in the country to legalize contraceptives for unmarried persons, had a law until 1974 that was hostile to birth control for anyone and denied it to the unmarried, no matter what the circumstances. A fifty-year-old widower, for example, could not legally buy a condom.

Toward the end of the hearing, which had featured calm and reasonable presentations by professional people who supported liberalization of the law and emotional outbursts about morals from clergy and Catholic matrons opposed to change, a frail, elderly man took the podium. He explained that he was an atheist concerned with separation of state and church, and that he regarded the birth control issue as one where the Catholic Church was imposing its doctrine on the state, an observation that resulted in immediate uneasiness among the legislators hearing testimony, especially the Catholic chairperson. The atheist then began a brief summary of the historic problems of state-church entanglement, citing the bloodshed and wars in European history that were religion related. When he referred to religion's role in World War II and Adolf Hitler's Catholicism, the chairman of the committee became enraged, and, in a red-faced frenzy struck his gavel repeatedly until the elderly man tremblingly left the podium.

For some reason, Catholics are not eager to claim Hitler.

Even today, when I refer to Hitler's Catholicism in conversation or a speech, it immediately becomes apparent that I have said something "not quite nice," and I am often challenged. Nontheists, I then explain, know that many modern tyrants, whether petty tyrants such as Richard Nixon, or more successful tyrants such as Hitler, have regarded themselves as exemplary Christians, an estimate their followers had no trouble accepting. Hitler's religiosity -- he was a Catholic until his death -- is often glossed over, but it is critical in understanding his motivation.

I have often reflected, wistfully, on how much happier modern history might have been had Hitler been brought up as an atheist, an agnostic, or, at least, a Unitarian. Born and bred a Catholic, he grew up in a religion and in a culture that was anti-semitic, and in persecuting Jews, he repeatedly proclaimed he was doing the "Lord's work."

You will find it in Mein Kampf: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work."

Hitler said it again at a Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926: "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude."

In a Reichstag speech in 1938, Hitler again echoed the religious origins of his crusade. "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work."

Hitler regarded himself as a Catholic until he died. "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so," he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals, in 1941.

There was really no reason for Hitler to doubt his good standing as a Catholic. The Catholic press in Germany was eager to curry his favor, and the princes of the Catholic Church never asked for his excommunication. Religions encourage their followers to hold authority in unquestioning respect; this is what makes devout religionists such wonderful dupes for dictators.

When Hitler narrowly escaped assassination in Munich in November, 1939, he gave the credit to providence. "Now I am completely content," he exclaimed. "The fact that I left the Burgerbraukeller earlier than usual is a corroboration of Providence's intention to let me reach my goal." Catholic newspapers throughout the Reich echoed this, declaring that it was a miraculous working of providence that had protected their Fuhrer. One cardinal, Michael Faulhaber, sent a telegram instructing that a Te Deum be sung in the cathedral of Munich, "to thank Divine Providence in the name of the archdiocese for the Fuhrer's fortunate escape." The Pope also sent his special personal congratulations!

Later the Pope was to publicly describe Hitler's opposition to Russia as a "highminded gallantry in defense of the foundations of Christian culture." Several German bishops openly supported Hitler's invasion of Russia, calling it a "European crusade." One bishop exhorted all Catholics to fight for "a victory that will allow Europe to breathe freely again and will promise all nations a new future."

Biographer John Toland wrote of Hitler's religion: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god -- so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty. Himmler was pleased to murder with mercy. He ordered technical experts to devise gas chambers which would eliminate masses of Jews efficiently and 'humanely,' then crowded the victims into boxcars and sent them east to stay in ghettos until the killing centers in Poland were completed."

Jews, of course, were not the only "holy" victims. In Yugoslavia, Hitler installed a Croatian, Ante Pavelic, as his puppet, and Pavelic, a Catholic like Hitler, began extermination of the Serbs, who were Greek Orthodox. One of my relatives by marriage is a Yugoslavian, a Serb, who survived World War II by going "underground" with the advent of Nazism in his country. Out of his immediate family of 17 (this includes his parents, siblings, aunts, uncles and first cousins), only three survived. His mother and sister just disappeared, his mother shortly after being given the opportunity to convert to Catholicism, an offer she refused. The Vatican was not unaware of the massacres conducted in Yugoslavia in the name of Catholicism, but Pope Pius remained diplomatically quiet. In fact, one of his actions was to receive Ante Pavelic in private audience, thereby giving his blessing to this regime.

War's causes, of course, are complex, but it would be difficult to overestimate the disastrous role religion played in World War II. Distrust, fear and hatred of Jews was a lesson Hitler learned early in life. It was taught by his church and reinforced by his culture. It became his obsession, his version of "the Lord's work." That Hitler, that supreme villain of the 20th century, could see himself, and be seen by others, as "providentially" guided, protected and inspired should certainly serve as an ominous clue to the dangers of religious belief. Just as the Vatican umbrella could be maneuvered to shield the massacres of Serbs by Catholics in Yugoslavia, so can religion validate any behavior, any atrocity, any war.

There you go... You brought it up by Copying and Pasting a work from Anne Nicol Gaylor.

I'm sure you have some "Progressive" double standard that explains why you would post this article WITHOUT believing what the author was saying.
 
There you go... You brought it up by Copying and Pasting a work from Anne Nicol Gaylor.

I'm sure you have some "Progressive" double standard that explains why you would post this article WITHOUT believing what the author was saying.

That's not what I said... that's not what anybody on this forum said.

That was a background piece on what I did say which was... Hitler did not outlaw, shut down or eliminate religion in Nazi Germany.

You do recall this all started by somebody saying Hitler and Stalin removed all religion from their countries. I said Stalin yes, Hitler, no.

You're with us right... you remember that... you're keeping track here?

And to even prove my point more you post my background piece which says...

Hitler regarded himself as a Catholic until he died. "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so," he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals, in 1941.

So if Hitler himself thought of himself as a Catholic (whether he was or not) would you give me that he probably didn't outlaw himself?:)

Let it go... it's over.;)
 
That's not what I said... that's not what anybody on this forum said.
Post where I said anyone on this forum said it. You cannot because I didn't...

What I did say... was that I refuted the claim that Hitler was a Catholic.

And to even prove my point more you post my background piece which says...
So if Hitler himself thought of himself as a Catholic (whether he was or not) would you give me that he probably didn't outlaw himself?

You have proven nothing... Your entire background piece is an opinion by Anne Nicol Gaylor.

ANGaylor.jpg


Let me tell everyone else about this author and some of her other works:

Gaylor, Anne Nicol: Abortion is a Blessing (1975)
"Invaluable for all those who care about keeping abortion legal and safe, this book is also a must for those who want all the facts before making up their minds on this issue." --Beatrice Blair, Executive Director of National Abortion Rights Action League.

Gaylor, Anne Nicol: Why Abortion? The Myth of Choice for Women Who are Poor
Why Abortion?
The Myth of Choice for Women Who Are Poor
by Anne Nicol Gaylor

Truly heart-rending stories of women seeking to gain control of their lives. Pregnant women who are poor, ill and disadvantaged continue to be denied the abortions they seek, indeed, plead for. Obviously, if a woman is too poor to afford an abortion, she is much too poor to afford a child, yet the pro-natalist mindset of her government ignores her pleas. Contains the entire text of "What Does The Bible Say About Abortion?" debunking religious opposition to abortion.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

In Appreciation

Foreword

Chapter 1: Introduction to Activism

Chapter 2: Launching the Women's Medical Fund

Chapter 3: Why Abortion?

Chapter 4: Who Are the Women?

Appendix A: Writing Letters

Appendix B: Remembering

Appendix C: What Does the Bible Say About Abortion?

Just to make sure everyone understands this persons SERIOUS problem with bias, especially where Hitler and Catholicism are concerned, try this on for size:

Among her feminist activities, Anne founded the ZPG Abortion Referral Service in 1970 and, over the next 5 years, made more than 20,000 referrals for birth control, abortion, and sterilization. In 1972, she co-founded the Women's Medical Fund charity to help low-income women pay for abortions. She has run that charity as a volunteer for 32 years and helped more than 14,000 women.

Her Abortion is a Blessing was published in 1975. "There were many groups working for women's rights," she realized, "but none of them dealt with the root cause of women's oppression - religion."

In 1976, she founded with her daughter Annie Laurie, the Freedom From Religion Foundation in order to promote freethought and the separation of state and church. After a string of successful legal and media actions, she was asked to go national with the Foundation in 1978, and she served as its elected president for 28 years. She took the Foundation from a 3-member, dining-room cause operation to a group with more than 5,000 members, a national office, newspaper, other publications, and many successful state/church lawsuits. She now is president emerita but works as a consultant for the Foundation.

One of her mostly widely-quoted aphorisms: "Nothing fails like prayer." Also, she has remarked, "There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

Now back to you Top Gun:
So if Hitler himself thought of himself as a Catholic (whether he was or not) would you give me that he probably didn't outlaw himself?

First, No... Hitler was NOT a Catholic. And No, Hitler did not shut down the churches... HE TOOK THEM OVER.

I know you don't know the difference but the "Catholic" churches that were allowed to remain open, were no longer teaching the Catholic faith - they were teaching the Nazi Gospel.
 
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GenSeneca;59030]Post where I said anyone on this forum said it. You cannot because I didn't...

What I did say... was that I refuted the claim that Hitler was a Catholic.

Then you were refuting some sidebar piece and not my true actual statement which was... Hitler did not shut down the churches in Germany.

Actually the piece I posted (and I could pull up numerous more) showed the direct link between Hitler & the church. But I didn't have to go that far to prove my point. Churches still stood. The general public still went. They were not "SHUT DOWN" under Hitler.


Now back to you Top Gun:

First, No... Hitler was NOT a Catholic. And No, Hitler did not shut down the churches... HE TOOK THEM OVER.

I know you don't know the difference but the "Catholic" churches that were allowed to remain open, were no longer teaching the Catholic faith - they were teaching the Nazi Gospel.

The Church establishment & the Nazi were not at odds at that time. You act as if this was not common. There were even Americans (George Bush's Grandfather, Preston Bush himself was a Nazi sympathizer for instance) that truly believed the Nazi were a normal legitimate Political Party.

What you want to do (impossibly) is say because the church voluntarily embraced the Nazi that somehow made them not the Catholic Church.

No, they were still the Catholic Church. They were just the Catholic Church that made a large mistake in judgement. And over history Churches making mistakes in judgement is hardly rare.

Which brings up the EXACT reason our Founding Fathers created a separation of church and state (there shall be no religious test for government). When government and church inter tangle from a policy for all perspective people suffer.

Happened in England with The Church of England. Happened in Nazi Germany. It's happening now with the Taliban. It's happened all over the world throughout history.

It's ALWAYS best when people are allowed to practice any and all beliefs. While at the same time the government does not pander or legislate by any particular one.
 
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