Anti-Theism in America

[Andy]

I suppose the difference is more evident to me. I am a believer in the risen Christ, the one true God, and do believe that the Bible is in fact the very word of God himself, the written inspired words of the creator of the universe, and all that.

So when I happen to tell people this, an agnostic, will normally ask questions, maybe say 'that's nice, but I don't believe', and perhaps even request more information as to why I believe these things. You can have a nice little conversation with them.

Atheists, on the other hand... for the most part, seem to attack. I have been accused of causing world violence. Even that I caused the crusades. And normally this is followed by a long list of slurs and insults which I find rather amusing and move on from. Normally I get attacked for being anti-science which humors me to no end, since for the most part, I know far more about science than they do.

At any rate, from my perspective, although the names can be changed, I understand the fundamental difference between the two groups. I have been lucky to find some good friends on both sides of the camp. One former Atheist friend, is now a Christian like myself. Another atheist, is still an atheist, still hates all christians and religious people of any kind, and is working at the ACLU, imagine that I actually know a lawyer at the ACLU.

 

[9sublime]

Militant anti-theists who try and force atheism on others are as bigoted as those who are Christians or Muslims who try and force their views on others. However, being atheist (beliveing in no God or afterlife) is a perfectly respectable belief.

 

[Libsmasher]

The word "atheist" has always been used as a person who asserts the non-existence of God.

From the latin root, "agnostic" means "to not know", atheists shouldn't be confused with agnostics.

 

[top gun]

you sound more Agnistic then Atheiest. Athiest belive there is no god, while agnostics hold the view that we dont know one way or the other. I am agnostic heavy on the Athiest side myself.

Ditto... Although I was a member of & went to a large Lutheran Church and Sunday School that was directly across the street from where we lived the whole time I was growing up.

Part of my family are even devout Catholics. I think it's all fine as long as church is church and government is government.

If not than whatever the majority religion is at the time they'd have too much power & control (it becomes the old Church of England problem). I wouldn't want to wake up some day and have say the Catholic Church or Islam or any other religion setting government policy for me.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I suppose the difference is more evident to me. I am a believer in the risen Christ, the one true God, and do believe that the Bible is in fact the very word of God himself, the written inspired words of the creator of the universe, and all that.

So when I happen to tell people this, an agnostic, will normally ask questions, maybe say 'that's nice, but I don't believe', and perhaps even request more information as to why I believe these things. You can have a nice little conversation with them.

Atheists, on the other hand... for the most part, seem to attack. I have been accused of causing world violence. Even that I caused the crusades. And normally this is followed by a long list of slurs and insults which I find rather amusing and move on from. Normally I get attacked for being anti-science which humors me to no end, since for the most part, I know far more about science than they do.

At any rate, from my perspective, although the names can be changed, I understand the fundamental difference between the two groups. I have been lucky to find some good friends on both sides of the camp. One former Atheist friend, is now a Christian like myself. Another atheist, is still an atheist, still hates all christians and religious people of any kind, and is working at the ACLU, imagine that I actually know a lawyer at the ACLU.

If you belive the bible as the word of god, how do you deal with the fact that the words in the bible you most likey have ( cant say for sure what one you have of course) are very often not the words of the bible but rather a collection of added parts, removed parts, errors in translation and copying, and editing by people to mold it to fit the view they wanted at the time over the last 2000 years?

Example, the story about Jesus, when the Romans brought him a woman claimed to be a adulter...and he stated let he without sin cast the first stone...Showing him getting out of a trap set to attack him for not showing mercy or attack him for not following Jewish Law ( that law also would have had to stone the man, that is ignored)

Problem is, while a nice story, and maybe even happened....its not part of the Orig bible, it was added much later by someone else.

And why is it that Paul I belive states at one point that woman should not speak in church...but at other points talks with them as church leaders and speakers...The reason is the part of that that said they should be silent, was again added by someone becuse at the time there was debate about the role of woman in the chuch and they changed it. The early Orig text of course dont have this part as well, it showed up later in some versions of the text in some areas.

I cant recall the guys name but he found I some 30,000 errors in the bible at one point, of things added changed copied wrong, mistraslated...later they found even more...while some have worked to correct those, th King james and most English translated texts dont reflect alot of it. So do we even know what the real words of God where in that case?



as far as being attacked, as a non christan I get it as well , after all I am not a moral person, and will burn in hell. I have faked praying at times just becuse I did not want to stick out , and cause a seen, though I feel realy uncomfortable doing it. Sometimes I dont think those that call for school prayer know how uncofortable it is to sit while evryone is praying ...and you are just sitting there doing nothing feeling like you dont belong at all and a outsider. And you know they all notice that you did not pay with them ect....I never understood why you cant just bow your head on your own in your own time and say a prayer. Why is must be some kind of school activity or something. when I was playing softball for a Church team once ( I was not told it was one till I got there) I felt odd as well, but its understandable in that case, and I just tried to hide that I dont belive at all. I just wanted to play ( though was hard not to swear while I played...grr)

 

[Dr.Who]

If you belive the bible as the word of god, how do you deal with the fact that the words in the bible you most likey have ( cant say for sure what one you have of course) are very often not the words of the bible but rather a collection of added parts, removed parts, errors in translation and copying, and editing by people to mold it to fit the view they wanted at the time over the last 2000 years?

Don't really know how this relates to the topic but...

I deal with it by knowing that contextual analysis has resulted in our knowing the form of the original letters with almost 100% accuracy.

And using the words "very often" would be an exaggeration of the amount of added/removed passages.

Example, the story about Jesus, when the Romans brought him a woman claimed to be a adulter...and he stated let he without sin cast the first stone...Showing him getting out of a trap set to attack him for not showing mercy or attack him for not following Jewish Law ( that law also would have had to stone the man, that is ignored)

Yes this would be an example of an added passage that we know about through contextual analysis. Which is probably why every bible I know of includes in the footnotes words like: "not in the earliest manuscripts."

Problem is, while a nice story, and maybe even happened....its not part of the Orig bible, it was added much later by someone else.

So who is the someone else. For all we know it might have been the original author. Then again maybe not. Best to keep the footnotes.

And why is it that Paul I belive states at one point that woman should not speak in church...but at other points talks with them as church leaders and speakers...The reason is the part of that that said they should be silent, was again added by someone becuse at the time there was debate about the role of woman in the chuch and they changed it. The early Orig text of course dont have this part as well, it showed up later in some versions of the text in some areas.

Because in the parts of his writings where he is trying to establish principles for leadership it is perfectly acceptable for women to be leaders. But in the parts of his writings where he is trying to establish orderliness during the service it is not acceptable for women to be talking to others while the pastor is trying to deliver a sermon.

I cant recall the guys name but he found I some 30,000 errors in the bible at one point, of things added changed copied wrong, mistraslated...later they found even more...while some have worked to correct those, th King james and most English translated texts dont reflect alot of it. So do we even know what the real words of God where in that case?

Oh the number of errors is much higher than that. But we must not confuse errors that are significant and meaningful with errors that we count as a matter of stuffy academic statistical analysis. If a letter is copied from the original and then there is a copy of a copy and those copies get copied 100 times. How many errors are there if one word was mispelled in the first copy? It is the same error repeated multiple times. I call that one error. Stuffed shirts call that 452.

as far as being attacked, as a non christan I get it as well , after all I am not a moral person, and will burn in hell. I have faked praying at times just becuse I did not want to stick out , and cause a seen, though I feel realy uncomfortable doing it. Sometimes I dont think those that call for school prayer know how uncofortable it is to sit while evryone is praying ...and you are just sitting there doing nothing feeling like you dont belong at all and a outsider. And you know they all notice that you did not pay with them ect....I never understood why you cant just bow your head on your own in your own time and say a prayer. Why is must be some kind of school activity or something. when I was playing softball for a Church team once ( I was not told it was one till I got there) I felt odd as well, but its understandable in that case, and I just tried to hide that I dont belive at all. I just wanted to play ( though was hard not to swear while I played...grr)

As a former atheist I know that experience to a degree. While I did not fake it I did sit still, eyes open, head upright. During hyms I would just stand unsinging or if I did sing would omit certain parts. At times I felt uncomfortable but no one ever did anything to increase that discomfort.

 

[Dr.Who]

Hey GenSenica,

I really like that opening post. It is an honest evaluation of where you are and what you see.

Can I copy that into another forum to begin a thread there?

 

[Andy]

If you belive the bible as the word of god, how do you deal with the fact that the words in the bible you most likey have ( cant say for sure what one you have of course) are very often not the words of the bible but rather a collection of added parts, removed parts, errors in translation and copying, and editing by people to mold it to fit the view they wanted at the time over the last 2000 years?

Example, the story about Jesus, when the Romans brought him a woman claimed to be a adulter...and he stated let he without sin cast the first stone...Showing him getting out of a trap set to attack him for not showing mercy or attack him for not following Jewish Law ( that law also would have had to stone the man, that is ignored)

Problem is, while a nice story, and maybe even happened....its not part of the Orig bible, it was added much later by someone else.

Actually the reverse happened. Many other sources indicate that the story was authentic and part of the letter by John. It was found that many Greek and Latin manuscripts, had the story edited out. Ambrose a Roman Christian of that era said this:

Certain persons of little faith, or rather enemies of the true faith, fearing, I suppose, lest their wives should be given impunity in sinning, removed from their manuscripts the Lord's act of forgiveness toward the adulteress, as if he who had said, Sin no more, had granted permission to sin.

And why is it that Paul I belive states at one point that woman should not speak in church...but at other points talks with them as church leaders and speakers...The reason is the part of that that said they should be silent, was again added by someone becuse at the time there was debate about the role of woman in the chuch and they changed it. The early Orig text of course dont have this part as well, it showed up later in some versions of the text in some areas.

I'm not seeing anything credible to suggest there is even a question about the authenticity of that passage. That said, the Bible makes it very clear there are specific roles for men and women, and there is no indication anywhere that Paul talked with any women that held a teaching position in the church. Being a speaker, or even a teacher, is different from being in a position of authority, like pastor.

I cant recall the guys name but he found I some 30,000 errors in the bible at one point, of things added changed copied wrong, mistraslated...later they found even more...while some have worked to correct those, th King james and most English translated texts dont reflect alot of it. So do we even know what the real words of God where in that case?

Yeah I know about the supposed thousands of error. Every time I get a list of them, I end up finding none of them are valid claims. I have yet to find a real direct error or contradiction. There are errors in translation. But when you look at the text, our copies of the manuscripts match perfectly with the ones from as far back as 900 BC in the original Hebrew. Given that, I think I can trust it.

as far as being attacked, as a non christan I get it as well , after all I am not a moral person, and will burn in hell. I have faked praying at times just becuse I did not want to stick out , and cause a seen, though I feel realy uncomfortable doing it. Sometimes I dont think those that call for school prayer know how uncofortable it is to sit while evryone is praying ...and you are just sitting there doing nothing feeling like you dont belong at all and a outsider. And you know they all notice that you did not pay with them ect....I never understood why you cant just bow your head on your own in your own time and say a prayer. Why is must be some kind of school activity or something. when I was playing softball for a Church team once ( I was not told it was one till I got there) I felt odd as well, but its understandable in that case, and I just tried to hide that I dont belive at all. I just wanted to play ( though was hard not to swear while I played...grr)

Uncomfortable? Like being told I was causing violence world wide? Or being publicly berated as anti-intellectual? Being shouted at in the middle of my work place for my religious views and eventually being laid off? I guess I can't really sympathize. Being uncomfortable simply because other people are praying, seems minor to what I've been through.

 

[GenSeneca]

Hey GenSenica,

I really like that opening post. It is an honest evaluation of where you are and what you see.

Can I copy that into another forum to begin a thread there?

Be my guest... Just please spell my name correctly

 

[pocketfullofshells]

the reason I asked about it, was becuse you happened to mention the bible as the word of god, and it just happen to be something i was reading at the time, the book "misquoting Jesus" and just though I would get your view on it. just seems hard to belive its the word of god to me, when we dont even know what was originaly said, given that even the oldest copys we had are many many years after it all was first recorded...and with the many copies of letters that never where added for some reason or another ..I belive was it 3rd century that the first book called the new testament was actuly put together from the various works.

having never read the bible myself, I ask , why does it put those areas in then, if it then footnotes that it was not suppose to be there most likey?

and its not to say becuse its changes throw it all out , if anything to me, going threw some of the changes, and why is was changed actuly made it make more sense to me, and it removed some of the more anti woman/Jewish themes a bit, and some of the conflicting stories. ( not all but maybe with more study who knows)

while like I said, a agnostic who leans Atheist, I have over the last year or so been reading more and more about the jewish, Christian and Muslim faiths, trying to get a better understanding of them. I view them more as hisorical and social text, and I dont exect to me moved and called to faith or anyhthing , I just find it still a interesting area, and one I lacked great knowlage in.

 

[top gun]

I suppose the difference is more evident to me. I am a believer in the risen Christ, the one true God, and do believe that the Bible is in fact the very word of God himself, the written inspired words of the creator of the universe, and all that.

So when I happen to tell people this, an agnostic, will normally ask questions, maybe say 'that's nice, but I don't believe', and perhaps even request more information as to why I believe these things. You can have a nice little conversation with them.

Atheists, on the other hand... for the most part, seem to attack. I have been accused of causing world violence. Even that I caused the crusades. And normally this is followed by a long list of slurs and insults which I find rather amusing and move on from. Normally I get attacked for being anti-science which humors me to no end, since for the most part, I know far more about science than they do.

At any rate, from my perspective, although the names can be changed, I understand the fundamental difference between the two groups. I have been lucky to find some good friends on both sides of the camp. One former Atheist friend, is now a Christian like myself. Another atheist, is still an atheist, still hates all christians and religious people of any kind, and is working at the ACLU, imagine that I actually know a lawyer at the ACLU.

I don't know any of the people you speak of. But as someone who's been on both sides (believer/nonbeliever) it's quite possible that the reason the Atheist seems agitated and confrontational is because there are a lot of religious groups that act a lot more Evangelistic than there used to be.

I'm not saying there's more people that follow religion. I'm just saying more that do today push that... you have to be born again stuff. To them it's just no longer enough to be a faithful member of a church and to have been Baptized. They have added new levels and they can get very pushy that their way is the only way.

This of course turns some people off and causes some to confront them head on. It's funny because the "born again" group is now kinda taking the place of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

You know the old joke: Why are Jehovah's Witnesses women flat chested?

GET! OFF! MY! PORCH!

I had a Holy Roller just the other day confront me. We were talking about gas prices or something. I could just tell she was one of those... We're all going to be gone in the rapture anyway so nothing matters types and she started getting kinda snotty... Well are you born again? When this happens I don't usually go into the I've been agnostic for over 30 years thing. I say something like I was Baptized in a Lutheran Church. Hoping they'll think... OK he's a Christian that's cool. Situation defused. BUT IT NEVER WORKS! I don't know why I even keep trying it.

The woman actually went... TA! Like TA that's nothing. I just smiled thinking man she'd really go bananas if I told her... I really think all your BS is Voodoo.

But I didn't because I really don't care what someones religious beliefs are... as long as they don't push it on me.

This was one of those people who really did want to push it on me. Everyones been around the type. As you're trying to politely remove yourself from their presence they get irritated and start almost yelling... I'll pray for you!!!

Don't get me wrong I've met some Atheists that purposely initiated combative examples of why they aren't buying the religion thing. But the chances of running into one of them compared to an evangelist type trying to "save you" are about 1000 to 1.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Andy as far as you looking back at the old text? I take it you know Greek and all the langues needed to look over the thousands and thosands of texts? with for a great deal of time those copies being made by hand and that over 2000 years the same words where copied evry single time, no one ever changes a word in error, or thining they where fixing a error, or becuse they held a view that the wordling may make less clear, so changes to fit there view. Your stateing that the story in question may have been edited out at one point, just goes to what I was saying,...if they can edit out, why not edit in? point being that the bible that we have today, I dont belive is word for word what was written some 2000 years ago.

the book I was reading on it, made a good case for what he was talking about I felt, and I dont mean it as a way of dissing the bible, as like I said, I found many of the things he talked about, made things make more sense and more clear to me.


and as for being laid off from your job for talking religion at work...I will asume that you know for sure that is the reason why....and that sucks, but I know at my jobs they basicly tell you dont talk about that at work....its against policy and its why I try not to.

and while you maybe called anti-intellectual?, I get to me Immoral. while you start all wars I will be burning in hell, ( besides we know Jews start the wars....thank you Mel Gibson) And I am not sure where you live or anything, but at least you can know that at least 90% of the people you will run into are going to be of yoru faith in some way...often for me, I am the only one, o one of very few.

I try to be respectful of peoples views even if I dont undestand them, and I would hope that others atheist or agnostics would do the same as well ( hard for agnostics to get mad over the idea we dont have any idea...) and while you may not see some of the things as the same I can understand where you are coming from.

 

[Andy]

Andy as far as you looking back at the old text? I take it you know Greek and all the langues needed to look over the thousands and thosands of texts? with for a great deal of time those copies being made by hand and that over 2000 years the same words where copied evry single time, no one ever changes a word in error, or thining they where fixing a error, or becuse they held a view that the wordling may make less clear, so changes to fit there view. Your stateing that the story in question may have been edited out at one point, just goes to what I was saying,...if they can edit out, why not edit in? point being that the bible that we have today, I dont belive is word for word what was written some 2000 years ago.

No I do not. Only Greek, Hebrew and Arimaic are the three langs in which the Bible was written, and Arimaic is a variation of Hebrew. That said, it is possible to discover the truth without getting a time machine and going back to 37 AD and watching them write the letters.

The MASORETIC TEXT, the oldest modern accepted text, from which we get our present day Bible is dated 980 A.D. For hundreds of years this was considered questionable by scholars since there were over 1700 years of coping to be accounted for.

Never the less, in 1947 the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls dated 200 B.C., revealed a complete copy of Isaiah, as well as nearly all of the Hebrew bible.

In comparing Masoretic text to the Dead Sea Scrolls, the two documents matched word for word, letter for letter, with 95% accuracy. Of the 5% errors, a few where different spellings of the exact same word, one was a reference to light being a "great light" instead of "a bright light". However without question there was not one single example of a doctrinal difference.

The same was discovered for nearly the entire Hebrew Bible. Word for word, letter for letter, nearly identical in every way. And 100% identical in doctrine.

The Bible we have today, is authentic.

the book I was reading on it, made a good case for what he was talking about I felt, and I dont mean it as a way of dissing the bible, as like I said, I found many of the things he talked about, made things make more sense and more clear to me.

I would wager that like most people, if you already disbelieve something, then one proclaiming a view you already hold would come across as believable. One of the reasons I am here, is because by reading what the other side says, it challenges me to a view point I don't hold. Have you read a book by someone who is a staunch believer?

and as for being laid off from your job for talking religion at work...I will asume that you know for sure that is the reason why....and that sucks, but I know at my jobs they basicly tell you dont talk about that at work....its against policy and its why I try not to.

Honestly, I don't know for certain. What I do know is, I was treated differently after the confrontation, even though I only answered the question the other person asked me. And though I was not let go alone, the other person, who was shouting and yelling, did not lose his job. So I find it a bit odd.

and while you maybe called anti-intellectual?, I get to me Immoral. while you start all wars I will be burning in hell, ( besides we know Jews start the wars....thank you Mel Gibson) And I am not sure where you live or anything, but at least you can know that at least 90% of the people you will run into are going to be of yoru faith in some way...often for me, I am the only one, o one of very few.

Just curious, do they actually follow you around and call you names? Do they yell at you and shout that you are going to hell?

It seems crazy to me since I have never done that. Now if they ask me, what happens if I die without know Jesus, yeah, you choose your destination. Those that choose to reject the son of God will be separated from God as they have chosen. That's hell. But I have never gone around telling people they are immoral or that they'll burn forever. It's hard for me to imagine a Christian even doing that.

No... actually most of the people I run into are not religious, or are of a faith that hates mine. We have a very high population of Muslims here, and they don't like Christianity. I was actually warned for having a Bible at work by a manager who had a copy of the Qu'ran on his desk. Other than that, most of the people I meet are shocked I'm a Christian and think I'm nutz.

 

[Andy]

I don't know any of the people you speak of. But as someone who's been on both sides (believer/nonbeliever) it's quite possible that the reason the Atheist seems agitated and confrontational is because there are a lot of religious groups that act a lot more Evangelistic than there used to be.

So asking people if they know where they will go after death, is worth shouting at them and accusing them of mass slaughter? Now granted, I'll be honest, I don't know what some of these groups do. Maybe it is so incredibility horrible that it requires a near violent reaction and broad accusations of causing world wars.

I had a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door a few times. Now, I don't agree with their teaching. I think they distort the Bible. But they were the nicest people I've had the pleasure to meet. I've had high school students selling magazines that were 20 times more rude and pushy.

I don't get the joke. Sorry. The only Jehovah's Witness girl I know is... very... very... um... cute. So... I guess I just don't get joke. And no, she was not cute enough for me to buy Jehovah's Witness. That would require intoxication

you have to be born again stuff. To them it's just no longer enough to be a faithful member of a church and to have been Baptized. They have added new levels and they can get very pushy that their way is the only way.

I completely agree with that statement. So, what do you mean by pushy? Do they track you down and corner you? Or when the topic comes up they are insistent? If someones asks me, I'm going to say what they told you. You must be born again. But... if you don't ask, I'm not going to follow you around about it.

This of course turns some people off and causes some to confront them head on. It's funny because the "born again" group is now kinda taking the place of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Can't be helped I suppose. Jesus Christ is the one who taught you must be born again. A Christian really isn't a Christian if you are not following the teachings of Christ.... right? I'm a Christian who doesn't believe what Christ taught. See a problem with that statement?

I had a Holy Roller just the other day confront me. We were talking about gas prices or something. I could just tell she was one of those... We're all going to be gone in the rapture anyway so nothing matters types and she started getting kinda snotty... Well are you born again? When this happens I don't usually go into the I've been agnostic for over 30 years thing. I say something like I was Baptized in a Lutheran Church. Hoping they'll think... OK he's a Christian that's cool. Situation defused. BUT IT NEVER WORKS! I don't know why I even keep trying it.

Likely because Baptism has nothing to do with being saved or going to heaven. You can give up on that. Save you some time. Just say no, and you are not interested in God. When I hear that, I just say well if you have any questions, feel free to ask, and then leave them alone.

The woman actually went... TA! Like TA that's nothing. I just smiled thinking man she'd really go bananas if I told her... I really think all your BS is Voodoo.

Now that would humor me to no end. You should say that

This was one of those people who really did want to push it on me. Everyones been around the type. As you're trying to politely remove yourself from their presence they get irritated and start almost yelling... I'll pray for you!!!

Don't get me wrong I've met some Atheists that purposely initiated combative examples of why they aren't buying the religion thing. But the chances of running into one of them compared to an evangelist type trying to "save you" are about 1000 to 1. [/COLOR]

I bet it's just God leading his people to you because he knows you need prayer.

I have only run into one singular guy who was a pushy Christian. Maybe I've been lucky. Of course I seem to find the angry anti-God people all the time, so I'm not very lucky.

 

[Mr.Dysfunctional]

The word "atheist" has always been used as a person who asserts the non-existence of God.

From the latin root, "agnostic" means "to not know", atheists shouldn't be confused with agnostics.

this is how I have always come to understand the two definitions.. always asserting that there really ARE no atheists .. because no one can actively prove there is no god. Arguments aside and debates aside.. proof favors nethier at this point..