America the Gutless

Actually, the real story of Vietnam was how we were there for tea and rubber interests that we shared along with France.

Just like Iraq for oil, US troops in Vietnam were ordered not to bomb or destroy certain fields under cultivation for rubber and tea. And of course, guess where the Vietcong chose to hide out and ambush from?

So you see, many young men and women died then as now, unknowingly, thinking their actions were "patriotic" and for "freedom", for some rich capitalists using the US arsenal to protect their business investments...

The more things "change" the more they stay the same.

Which is why we need real change this time.
 
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I am suggesting that blaming the industrial military complex for everything that ever went wrong is a bogus argument.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. It was just a coincidence they did so well, during The Cold War. :rolleyes:
 
Another piece I wrote, this one back in College.

BTW, my VERY liberal Prof. not only gave me an "A" on it, but had to concede that many of the misconceptions he had held for over a decade were totally inaccurate.

Vietnam: Americas War to Stem Communist Expansion

Following World War II, the Soviet Union, under Josef Stalin, and the government of China under Mao Tse-tung expanded their avowed policies of Communist expansionism throughout Southeast Asia. This policy eventually culminated itself in the invasion of South Korea in June of 1950 as well as increased support for the Communist led Vietminh forces in Vietnam, in a two pronged assault designed to firmly establish Communism in the region.

Ho Chi Minh, who had studied Communism as the Lenin Institute in Moscow from 1921 until 1935, and then continued his education in China, returned to Vietnam in May of 1941, to attend the 8th Plenum of the Indochinese Communist Party. One of the major results of this conference was the formation of the League for the Independence of Vietnam, more commonly known as the Vietminh.

Led by Ho Chi Minh, the Vietminh took great advantage of the fractured government of post WWII Vietnam to spread the teachings of Communism throughout Indochina. Many of the people of Vietnam, weary of the yoke of Colonial French rule, readily accepted these teachings. Many Vietnamese, however, chose not to accept Communist indoctrination, preferring instead to maintain their alliance with the French Government, and as a result of these divisions, two separate governments were formed. The Communist led Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DVR) issued its Declaration of Independence on September 2, 1945, while the pro-French people formed the Associated State of Vietnam (ASV) under the leadership of Bao Dai on March 8, 1949.

In an official recognition by the United States of the agreement between France and the ASV, the U.S. Secretary of State, Dean Acheson issued a statement on February 7, 1950, recognizing the ASV. In response to this, the Soviet and Chinese governments issued their own statements of recognition of the DSV, setting the stage for increased conflict in the region. As a result of an overtly Communist government emerging in the region, Mr. Acheson, on May 8, 1950, issued the “Extension of Military and Economic Aid” to the ASV. In this statement it was made quite clear the “The United States Government, convinced that neither national independence nor democratic evolution exist in any area dominated by Soviet imperialism, considers the situation to be such as to warrant its according economic aid and military equipment to the Associated States of Indochina and to France…,” openly avowing America’s policy of opposing Communism in Southeast Asia.

On January 28, 1951, President Harry S. Truman along with his cabinet, met with Prime Minister Pleven of France and his cabinet at the White House to discuss the current situation in Southeast Asia. The minutes of that meeting reveal that the French government had “adopted a policy of complete emancipation of the three Indochinese countries” and that they “had been transferring power to local Indochinese authorities as fast as they could.” Prime Minister Pleven also stated that these efforts were being thwarted by “the Communist-directed revolutionary movement” inspired by the governments of Russia and China. President Truman informed Mr. Pleven “that there was no present possibility of our recognizing the Peking regime…in China” and that “we will continue to use every means at our command to keep the Peking regime from being seated in the UN as a representative of China. To do so would add only one more vote to the Russian Bloc.”

By the middle of 1954, the French had lost their war against the Communist Vietminh and on July 20 of that year the “Agreement of the Cessation of Hostilities in Vietnam” was signed. Although the Geneva Accords theoretically ended the war between the French and the Vietminh, there was to be no peace in the region due to the continual violation of the Accords by the Vietminh. In his address to the American Friends of Vietnam on June 1, 1956, Walter S. Robertson, the Assistant Secretary of State for Far Eastern Affairs, pointed out that even after the free elections in March of 1955 had overwhelmingly elected President Ngo Dinh Diem, the Communists continued to blatantly violate Sections 17, 19, and 24 of the Geneva Accords. These violations included allowing Chinese Communist military personnel to work on military projects in the north and the expansion of its military to no less than 20 Divisions, an increase of more than 200% since the Accords were signed. In response to this, the United States, in an effort to maintain some form of parity in the region, promised “to support a friendly non-Communist government in Vietnam and to help it diminish and eventually eradicate Communist subversion and influence.”

President Dwight D. Eisenhower, in an address at Gettysburg College on April 4, 1959, stated that “Because of the proximity of Communist military formations in the north, Free Vietnam must maintain substantial numbers in cleaning out Communist guerillas, those remaining continue to be a disruptive influence in the nation’s life.” He further stated that, should South Vietnam fall to the Communists, more than 12 million people would lose their freedom and “the freedom of 150 million would be seriously endangered.” He then closed by saying that the United States had reached “the inescapable conclusion that our own national interests demand some help from us in sustaining in Vietnam” the moral, economic and “military strength necessary to its continued existence in freedom.”

By the end of 1961, the situation in Vietnam had deteriorated to the point that the introduction of forces under the “Southeast Asia Collective Defense Treaty” (SEATO) was being seriously considered. In a report to President John F. Kennedy on November 11, 1961, Robert McNamara, the Secretary of Defense, recommended, in order to prevent “the fall of South Vietnam to Communism,” the introduction of “United States and other SEATO forces may be necessary… .” Following that meeting, McNamara sent a memo to the Joint Chiefs of Staff requesting recommendations “concerning a command structure for RVN under which a senior military commander would assume responsibilities for all activities, including intelligence ops, related to the counter-insurgency effort” which was to become known as the Military Assistance Advisory Group (MAAG).

In a memorandum from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Taylor and Secretary of Defense, McNamara to President Kennedy on October 2, 1963, it was noted that due to recent progress in the military campaigns and despite the continued political turmoil in Vietnam, it would be possible to start the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Vietnam. This memorandum recommended that the first 1000 troops would be withdrawn by the end of 1963 and that “a program be established to train Vietnamese so that essential functions now performed by U.S. personnel can be carried out by Vietnamese by the end of 1965” allowing for the withdrawal of “the bulk of U.S. personnel by that time.” This memorandum led to the issuance of National Security Action Memorandum (NSAM) #263, which was signed by President Kennedy on October 11, 1963. It should be noted that in late 1963, there were only 16,300 U.S. military troops operating in advisory or support roles in Vietnam and that U.S. casualties only numbered 82 killed in action. These personnel had in fact only received permission to “return fire only if fired upon first” from President Kennedy in February of 1962.

With the ascendance of Lyndon Baines Johnson to the Presidency following the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963, President Johnson signed NSAM #273 on November 26, 1963. This memorandum, in theory, maintained the Kennedy position stated in NSAM #263. Unfortunately the reality of NSAM #273 was to accelerate our involvement in Vietnam, not due to any malice on the part of the Johnson administration, but rather as a result of the overthrow and assassination of President Diem on November 2, 1963, as well as the Gulf of Tonkin incident in August of 1964. The assassination of Diem resulted in two years of instability to the government of South Vietnam, and the Gulf of Tonkin incident exposed a paradigm shift in the Communist-backed Vietminh battle plans by engaging U.S. troops directly. This shift caused U.S. troop concentrations to be increased for actual combat operations rather than the supply and advise mission that we had been carrying out for almost a decade.
 
Continued:

There are many people who will claim that the acceleration in the war in Vietnam was undertaken by the Johnson administration in order to increase the “Military Industrial Complex” that President Eisenhower warned against in his farewell address to the nation. Still others will attempt to use this as proof that Johnson was involved in the assassination of President Kennedy. These people neglect however to account for the fact that after the Gulf of Tonkin incident President Johnson sought only to force the Communist Vietminh to comply with the Geneva Accords of 1954 and 1962 (which neither the U.S. nor the government of South Vietnam had signed), and remove their troops from Cambodia and Laos. In an address to Congress on August 4, 1964, President Johnson pointed out these truths as well as requesting “a resolution expressing the support of the Congress for all necessary action to protect our Armed Forces and to assist nations covered by the SEATO Treaty.” Further McGeorge Bundy, the Special Assistant for National Security to both Kennedy and Johnson, sent a memo to President Johnson on February 7, 1965, indicating that the United States’ response to Vietminh aggression should be only in response to specific outrages by the Vietminh. He also stated that it is necessary to make it clear “both to Hanoi and to the world, that our reprisals will be reduced or stopped when outrages in the South are reduced or stopped… .” One of the major outrages that the Vietminh engaged in, and which was conveniently overlooked by the anti-war factions, were the murders of countless civilians because they refused to embrace Communism. In his book entitled “No More Vietnams”, former President Richard M. Nixon stated that “From 1957 to 1973, the National Liberation Front assassinated 36,725 South Vietnamese and abducted another 58,499. The death squads focused on anyone who improved the lives of the peasants such as medical personnel, social workers, and school teachers.”

Some of the most controversial objections of the entire Vietnam War were claims that blacks were drafted and sent into battle at higher rates than white troops, or that their casualties in Vietnam were unusually high. The facts as provide by the Center for Electronic Records, National Archives, Combat Area Casualty File (CAFC) are as follows; from 1959 until 1973 when we left Vietnam, 2,637,915 U.S. troops served in Vietnam. Of these troops 153,303 were wounded and 58,152 died, and, of the dead, 7,262 (12.5%) were black, while 42,490, or 73.5% were white. It has also been claimed that draftees were sent into battle as cannon fodder at higher rates than volunteers. The fact of the matter is that 63% of the troops that died in Vietnam were volunteers and only 37% were draftees.

In order to contrast these figures properly we must look at previous American wars. During the four years of the Civil War, of the 2.5 – 2.7 million Union troops that served, over 360,000 died, and, of the 750,000 to 1.25 million Confederate troops, over 250,000 died. In the Battle of Gettysburg alone, of the 160,000 troops involved, over 51,000 were casualties and this in only three days from July 1-3, 1863. During World War I, the United States sent 4,355,000 troops “over there”, and from April 6, 1917, when we declared War to November 11, 1918 when the war officially ended, we suffered 126,000 killed, over 234,000 wounded, and 4,536 missing.

The pure mathematics of these figures show that during the Civil war the total killed were some 618,000, or 5.8% of troops serving in the war, or an average of 154,500 per year. During WWI, this figure dropped to 2.9% or 31,500 per year. When this is contrasted with the figures from Vietnam of only 58,000 deaths from 1959 until 1973, 2.2% or 4,153 per year, it is easy to see that these were the lowest combat fatality figures in U.S. history to that date.

The simple facts of the matter are quite clear to any that choose to look for them. The United States government had avowed constantly since 1949 to take whatever measures were necessary to slow or, if possible, to stop Communist expansionism in Southeast Asia and throughout the world. During every administration from Harry S. Truman to Richard M. Nixon the President continually consulted with Congress, as well as all other applicable agencies and departments to find a way to stop Communism. While these facts are important, the most critical fact is simply that the United States military in conjunction with those of SEATO, won every major battle and campaign during our 26 year commitment in Vietnam. In a speech before a Vietnam Veterans group on July 5, 1986 in Washington D.C., General William Westmoreland stated that the countries of the “Philippines, Indonesia, Singapore and Thailand stayed free of Communism because of the US commitment to Vietnam.”

Finally, one must concede the fact that it was through the efforts of the United States, in conjunction with our NATO and UN allies, beginning in the early days of Vietnam, which led to the eventual fall of the Soviet Union and the end of Communist expansion throughout the world. Simply stated, not only did we accomplish our 24 year mission to stem the spread of Communism throughout SE Asia, and throughout the world, and contrary to the common myths and defeatist rhetoric, we did win the War in Vietnam
 
"We" SCREWED the Vietnamese....and, got the @ss-whuppin' we deserved!!!!

In the process, 58,000+ American-servicemen were sacrificed on the alter to The Cold War
sacrificed by JOHNSON, a democrat.
 
Really? Spin this!!!!

saigon.jpg

Don't you know? That's a picture of victory,...running, tails firmly placed between legs, as the NVA invade Saigon and take over the city in triumph. How that can be considered a victory is beyond my comprehension, but of course my mind doesn't entertain GOP right wing revisionist history.
 
Don't you know? That's a picture of victory,...running, tails firmly placed between legs, as the NVA invade Saigon and take over the city in triumph. How that can be considered a victory is beyond my comprehension, but of course my mind doesn't entertain GOP right wing revisionist history.

That is one of the most COMPLETELY IDIOTIC things you've ever posted Popeye, and you have NO concept of history. First of all, except for the Marine Embassy guard, we didn't have any troops in Vietnam in 1975 when Saigon fell, and HADN'T FOR OVER 2 YEARS! It's rather hard to defeat someone who hasn't been in the War for over 2 years. That's just plain STUPID (which for you is about par for the course).

Use this analogy; if couple "A" plays a game of doubles tennis against couple "B" and win, but TWO YEARS LATER, one of the members of couple "A" plays a singles match against one of the members of couple "B", and the member of couple "A" loses, how do you propose that this translates into a defeat for the other half of couple "A" as it relates to the game that was played over 2 years earlier? IT DOESN'T!

We defeated the Communists in 1973, and in compliance with the terms of the Paris Peace Accords we left Vietnam. 2 YEARS LATER, the NVA again attacked AFTER the LIBTARD DEMOCRAPS IN CONGRESS cut off all of our TREATY OBLIGED funding to S. Vietnam, and prevented President Ford from utilizing our military to support them any further.

It was YOU DEMOCRATS who are DIRECTLY responsible for the slaughter of over 1 MILLION innocent men, women, and children by your Communist masters following the 1975 invasion of S. Vietnam.
 
That is one of the most COMPLETELY IDIOTIC things you've ever posted Popeye, and you have NO concept of history. First of all, except for the Marine Embassy guard, we didn't have any troops in Vietnam in 1975 when Saigon fell, and HADN'T FOR OVER 2 YEARS! It's rather hard to defeat someone who hasn't been in the War for over 2 years. That's just plain STUPID (which for you is about par for the course).

Use this analogy; if couple "A" plays a game of doubles tennis against couple "B" and win, but TWO YEARS LATER, one of the members of couple "A" plays a singles match against one of the members of couple "B", and the member of couple "A" loses, how do you propose that this translates into a defeat for the other half of couple "A" as it relates to the game that was played over 2 years earlier? IT DOESN'T!

We defeated the Communists in 1973, and in compliance with the terms of the Paris Peace Accords we left Vietnam. 2 YEARS LATER, the NVA again attacked AFTER the LIBTARD DEMOCRAPS IN CONGRESS cut off all of our TREATY OBLIGED funding to S. Vietnam, and prevented President Ford from utilizing our military to support them any further.

It was YOU DEMOCRATS who are DIRECTLY responsible for the slaughter of over 1 MILLION innocent men, women, and children by your Communist masters following the 1975 invasion of S. Vietnam.

That's a picture of the evacuation as the NVA entered Saigon in celebration and triumph. Sure, most of the US troops were already gone but not before they bombed and napalmed the north into the stone age killing MILLIONS OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

The US finally left because the American people tired of a war the US couldn't win. The US was eventually driven from Vietnam, whether it be through the Paris Peace Accords or not..the only reason we were even at the table was because it was a war we were unable to win.

All that doesn't somehow translate into a US victory. In fact, North Vietnam won this war through attrition and only a few right wing neanderthals dare to suggest otherwise.
 
Mr. Carpenter - why do you post these substantive comments, when the only opposition here is a gaggle of obamabot clowns who post one-liners and are incapable of anything approaching debate? It may have some value though if there are intelligent lurkers reading it.
 
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