A question for the "so-called" pro-life people:

[PLC1]

Getting back on message..IMO thats shallow thinking of the sometimes claim that conservatives want to impose their own will on others in the matter of abortion. To make that claim is however to confuse religion with politics. Conservatives are in fact divided about their response to abortion. The REAL opposition to abortion is religious rather than political. And the church which has historically tended to support the LEFT -- the Roman Catholic church -- is the most fervent in the anti-abortion cause. Conservatives are indeed the one side of politics to have moral qualms on the issue but they tend to seek a middle road in dealing with it. Taking the issue to the point of legal prohibitions is a religious doctrine rather than a conservative one -- and the religion concerned may or may not be characteristically conservative

A quote from the man you love to hate and place blame...Goerge Bush..he got a few things right

"I think it's important to promote a culture of life. I think a hospitable society is a society where every being counts and every person matters. I believe the ideal world is one in which every child is protected in law and welcomed to life.

I understand there's great differences on this issue of abortion. But I believe reasonable people can come together and put good law in place that will help reduce the number of abortions.

Take, for example, the ban on partial-birth abortion. It's a brutal practice. People from both political parties came together in the halls on Congress and voted overwhelmingly to ban that practice. Made a lot of sense. My opponent out - in that he's out of the mainstream, voted against that law.

What I'm saying is that as we promote life and promote a culture of life, surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number of abortions. Continue to promote adoption laws - that's a great alternative to abortion. Continue to fund and promote maternity group homes. I will continue to promote abstinence programs".

Bush did get some things right. He's right about partial birth abortion. He's right about trying to reduce the number of abortions.

Except that abstinence programs, if they are abstinence only, have proven ineffective.

 

[cashmcall]

Bush did get some things right. He's right about partial birth abortion. He's right about trying to reduce the number of abortions.

Except that abstinence programs, if they are abstinence only, have proven ineffective.

I will not get into what is or isn't effective..but he never said promote abstinence only..

 

[cashmcall]

I will not get into what is or isn't effective..but he never said promote abstinence only..

The point is he does not advocate a dogmatic policy of coercion or total prohibition but rather a policy of seeking voluntary ways of just REDUCING the number of abortions. So Bush was preaching a synthesis that was both classically conservative and yet also very supportive of Christian values -- with their view of all human life as the work and gift of God. It's the sort of synthesis that might have served a clever politician of the Left well in a religious country but it was the "dumb" George Bush who actually put it forward and won much kudos among Christians in doing so.

Rightists are divided because they are the only ones who genuinely care and it is a situation of conflict between the rights of the child and the rights of the mother. I myself think it is patently obvious that abortion is wrong. A baby that would survive if born premature is destroyed by an abortionist and we are told that no crime has been committed! Absurd. But my instincts also tell me that coercion is not the way to stop abortion.

So conservatives should be helping to support and encourage reluctant mothers rather than threaten them with the law ...

 

[Dr.Who]

, surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number of abortions.

How about we allow all abortions except where the goal is not two living human beings (mother and baby) at the end of the procedure?

From there we should ban various cesarean procedures in which the stated goal is the survival of mother and baby but there is zero chance of that happening - except where only one can be saved?

 

[Dr.Who]

I myself think it is patently obvious that abortion is wrong. ...

In the 70's it was not patently obvious (it was only very reasonably obvious). But yes today it IS patently obvious.

The day will come when one of two outcomes occur: either people will accept and admit that they are monsters and that they just don't care about the live of another as long as they get what they want, or abortions will be virtually gone.

I have actually debated people who very clearly admit that it is aliving human baby/person and they simply state that they don't care - would even be willing to allow infantacide after birth.

 

[cashmcall]

In the 70's it was not patently obvious (it was only very reasonably obvious). But yes today it IS patently obvious.

The day will come when one of two outcomes occur: either people will accept and admit that they are monsters and that they just don't care about the live of another as long as they get what they want, or abortions will be virtually gone.

I have actually debated people who very clearly admit that it is aliving human baby/person and they simply state that they don't care - would even be willing to allow infantacide after birth.

Doc..I won't even go there..It upets me way to much..

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Well if you are going to take that line to have a hope of offering a credible pro life position you have to be against war and against capital punishment

But most pro lifers love both

They are not pro life but religious fundamentalists like the fundamentalist Muslims they love to bomb

Except that abortion kills a potential person and war/capital punishment kills actual people which makes their hypocrisy hypocrisy on steroids

 

[Gipper]

In the 70's it was not patently obvious (it was only very reasonably obvious). But yes today it IS patently obvious.

The day will come when one of two outcomes occur: either people will accept and admit that they are monsters and that they just don't care about the live of another as long as they get what they want, or abortions will be virtually gone.

I have actually debated people who very clearly admit that it is aliving human baby/person and they simply state that they don't care - would even be willing to allow infantacide after birth.

I have debated such people as well. These people are typically hardcore leftists who do not believe in God. I found after much discussion that they believe abortion and infanticide is necessary because it limits the number of humans. These people believe that more humans is a bad thing for the planet causing global warming and other catastrophes from over population. They conclude that the world is already over populated. I find people who think this way to be complete and utter fools. Sadly there are many of them.

 

[Dr.Who]

Well if you are going to take that line to have a hope of offering a credible pro life position you have to be against war and against capital punishment

But most pro lifers love both

They are not pro life but religious fundamentalists like the fundamentalist Muslims they love to bomb

Except that abortion kills a potential person and war/capital punishment kills actual people which makes their hypocrisy hypocrisy on steroids

That is a misunderstanding of the reasons that people are pro life. They are not all pro life because they want every single life to continue no matter what. They are pro life because they believe that everyone has a right to life unless there is a legitimate reason for that person to lose his life. Criminals lose their right with due process. Warfare is also a government sanctioned loss of life. In both of these cases the constitution allows for the loss of life. In the case of the unborn living human the right interpretation of the const demands that all living humans have a right to life. Yes that right to life can be lost in certain circumstances: if the unborn commits a capital crime (lol), enlists as a soldier (lol) or its life must be weighed against the right to life of another.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Ok so they don't really think life is sacred.

warfare always kills civilians who have done nothing

And capital punishment always ensures that innocent people are killed. The easy way to stop this is to abolish it. Not support a system that ensures state murder

So try again

 

[Dr.Who]

Ok so they don't really think life is sacred.

warfare always kills civilians who have done nothing

And capital punishment always ensures that innocent people are killed. The easy way to stop this is to abolish it. Not support a system that ensures state murder

So try again

I am pro life and I, as you said, do not believe that life is so sacred that there are no circumstances under which it cannot be taken. On the other hand I clearly believe it is more sacred than those who would take the life of the living human innocent unborn.

Your right that warfare always kills bystanders. That cannot be avoided.

Capital punishment does not ensure that innocent be killed. It may happen occassionally and it may happen more than it should - then again it might not. But that is not ensured.

 

[dogtowner]

Ok so they don't really think life is sacred.

warfare always kills civilians who have done nothing

And capital punishment always ensures that innocent people are killed. The easy way to stop this is to abolish it. Not support a system that ensures state murder

So try again

odd that Jesus Christ himself was subjected to capital punishment along with the two thieves. certainly the SOn of God could have "done" something for the others if not himself had he considered it problematic. and yet he didn't. He had to die to fulfill his destiny and save all our souls but the other two who admitted they deserved it for their sins but their souls were saved by Christ's sacrifice.

it helps to remember that murder is the intentional taking of innocent life. your comic book comprehension of these matters does not serve you well.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Oh dear I don't know where to start with this one

I suppose I should just accept that Christians are probably going to be pro death because god is such a murderer

I wonder how many babies he killed when he flooded the world because the people did exactly what he knew they would do?

And I suppose that if he is going to make a world that necessitates his son being tortured and murdered we shouldn't be surprised if his followers think torture and murder are ok

But what I don't get is this

God aborts more babies than all the abortionists combined so why isn't it ok to follow his example in this regard?

 

[cashmcall]

Oh dear I don't know where to start with this one

I suppose I should just accept that Christians are probably going to be pro death because god is such a murderer

I wonder how many babies he killed when he flooded the world because the people did exactly what he knew they would do?

And I suppose that if he is going to make a world that necessitates his son being tortured and murdered we shouldn't be surprised if his followers think torture and murder are ok

But what I don't get is this

God aborts more babies than all the abortionists combined so why isn't it ok to follow his example in this regard?

You and many Atheists seem to not only hate but also fear organized religion. You never speak of the good religion does. You only look for bad things to talk about and if we disagree with you, you will post for hours on end about how wrong and horrible Chriatianity is. If we attempt to defend our fath you become extremely agitated and resort to insults.

In my opinion Atheist zealots are far worse than religious zealots. Like the Muslims they believe that anyone who doesn't believe as they do is their enemy. The difference is that instead of using bombs they use the courts in their attempts to destroy organized religion.

 

[PLC1]

Oh dear I don't know where to start with this one

I suppose I should just accept that Christians are probably going to be pro death because god is such a murderer

I wonder how many babies he killed when he flooded the world because the people did exactly what he knew they would do?

And I suppose that if he is going to make a world that necessitates his son being tortured and murdered we shouldn't be surprised if his followers think torture and murder are ok

But what I don't get is this

God aborts more babies than all the abortionists combined so why isn't it ok to follow his example in this regard?

Remember, it is god who gave us life, and god who ends it. Death to god is not an ending anyway, but just a transition. Humans ending a life is wrong, as it goes against the intent of god.