A Conception's Right To Life

Chip, you are not being honest with us.
Your projection is irrelevant.


You copied and pasted your criteria out of context from Wikipedia and didn't give credit to that source,
Erroneous and immaterial.

The scientific consensually accepted test to determine if something is alive remains consensually accepted no matter how many, many places it's presented.


and what the thrust of the article was really about.
Your "article" and the consensually accepted test to determine if something is alive are two different things.

Your "article" is immaterial.

The criteria test for a living being is germane, standing alone as it does on its own merit.


That article used the term "life" to define it at a species level not at a particular level of development of a particular entity.
Again, your "article" is immaterial.

I didn't reference your article.

I referenced the consenually accepted test to determine if an entity is alive.

The sophistry story you are attempting to weave here is obvious, erroneous, of course, but obvious.


For example viruses do not metabolize and thus do not qualify as life under certain definitions.
You may be in error here, but that's somewhat irrelevent -- we're not talking about viruses, Lagboltz.

We're talking about a newly conceived human being.

Your divertive digression does not address the topic matter.


The "consensually accepted conventional multi-criteria test" was misused.
And speciously by you to suit your pro-abortion purposes, no doubt.


The criteria that they gave tells us that the human zygote is a homosapien life form.
Again with your "article". :rolleyes:

You are a homosapien life form, according to DNA analysis.

Are you alive?

Yes, according to life science by virtue that you pass the seven criteria for being a living entity, an individual living being.

It really is that simple, Lagboltz.


The criteria was never meant to say that the undeveloped zygote is "alive."
The DNA analysis determined that the newly conceived is a life form.

The consensually accepted test for determining if an entity is alive determined that the newly conceived is alive.

Thus the newly conceived is a living human being.

***

Though you would prefer to belittlingly demean that which DNA and life science that jibes with intuitive obvious reality have proven beyond rational conjecture to be a living being, the reason you do so is reflected in your initial projection ... and, in all fairness, you need to come clean about what appear to be your pre-conceived motivating reasons for not wanting to accept that a conception is a living human being in that person's earliest stage of being.

So, instead of accusing others of being dishonest, perhaps before you say anything more on the matter, you may want to be honest yourself and state your true motivation for denying the obvious realities I presented in the opening threads.
 
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There is always the question of "best for whom". Does the right of the host disappear at the instant of conception? In cases of rape? Incest? Birth defect? Who gets to decide whose right takes precedence?
Good questions.

The Realities of Rights with respect to the scientific reality that a conception is a person says that the newly conceived human being has the right of way, as otherwise the egregious bias of ageism is committed.

But those who are utilitarian first (whatever is best for me) and ontological a distant ways third (whatever is true and right) will often commit sophistry in an attempt to fool themselves ontologically into a "justification" for their utilitarianism!


In matters of a persons being secure in themselves, I have to come down on the side of woman deciding the fate of her offspring as long as it is inside her,
Yes, security of person is a major class of rights indeed, and on that basis one might argue that a woman's self defense is a right in this matter.

However, the right to life supercedes security of person, and thus the right to life of the newly conceived person rightly holds sway over the woman's claim of security of person.

Unless, of course, the newly conceived person is indeed directly and truly threatening the life of the woman. Then it is a matter of survival of the fittest, and we are not to fault the mother if she wins (which she likely will if she chooses to fight) ... though she is always left with remorse when she wins resulting in the death of her offspring.

But if the newly conceived person is not a reasonable and customary threat to the woman's very life, then the newly conceived person's right to life trumps the woman's falsely alleged security of person.

With respect to truth and rights, an honest woman needs to consider these matters before consenting to sex, as does a man, and with regard to rape and the like, that is a tragedy, but two wrongs do not make a right.


living as a parasite in her body,
The parasite sophistry was defeated long ago.

Scientifically speaking, to be a parasite in this matter, the newly conceived person would have to be of a different species.

Since the newly conceived person is of the same species, the term "parasite" is simply misapplied in error.


and unable to live outside of her.
In our likewise bare essentials state, we adult human beings are also unable to live outside of our natural habitat: outside of the hospitable surface of planet Earth.

As you can see, that an entity is unable to live out of its natural habitat is irrelevant to this discussion.


Once viability is reached, then it becomes a person.
To each their own utilitarian idiosyncracy.

But science and definitive propriety disagrees with you.

The objectivity of science and definitive propriety, which also matches intuitive obvious reality, does indeed successfully fly in the face of pre-conceived ideological coping mechanisms of every sophistry.


The early Christian church argued that only at birth did a soul enter the body and it became a person.
Irrelevant.

Though I understand your beef with Christianity, Christianity is a religion, and this matter is not about religion.

Besides, there is no scientific or intuitive indication that there even is such a thing as a "soul" ... and such likely specious things as "souls" and "before/after life" are likely fantasy coping manifestations of a psyche that is suffering sufficient fear of the reality of its own mortality, a collective phenomena that's ages old in our historically unsafe world where the reality of rights was disrespected and disease and famine plagued the planet.

Thus any religion's argument on when a person becomes a person is irrelevant, and if it disagrees with the obvious scientific reality of modern-day humanity, it is not rationally given credence.


Their reasoning was that such a huge percentage of conceptions ended in no birth that it didn't make any sense for God to instill a soul until the baby was born (viability from their perspective).
Whatever their reasoning truly was, remains irrelevant.

Science has spoken ... and religion is meaningless in this matter.


I am not a fan of abortion, but I am also not a fan of telling women what they can do with their bodies and the contents of their bodies.
Who rationally and with respect to the right to life and the right of freedom of action is a fan of either abortion or telling women what they can do with the contents of their bodies respectively?

The point of the initial posts of this thread is to present modern scientific knowledge reflecting humanity's progress in awareness, and the impact of this progress in awareness on human behavior.

We may not like the truth, but if we don't respect it once we've learned it, the neuropsychological damage we can do to ourselves is significant.


It's a tough call
It's a tough call for utilitarians, maybe.

But for ontologicians who respect the life state-of-being of themselves and others it's a piece of cake call, really.


and the only real way to solve it is for us to find better ways of preventing pregnancy.
Though it's not the only way, preventing conception when it is not desired is indeed a major, major method of solving said problem.

Nevertheless, the motivation to create and implement new state-of-the-art conception prevention pharmaceuticals (that lop of the tails of sperm and harden the egg shell to impenetrability after release and the like) will likely come from realizing the truth that a newly conceived individual human being is a person rightly endowed with the foundational overriding right to life, and thus taking that life when the mother's life is not directly threatened where no other recourse is safe, is indeed murder.

That realization will become sufficient motivation to move these new products through testing and into the marketplace.
 
Your projection is irrelevant.

Erroneous and immaterial.

The scientific consensually accepted test to determine if something is alive remains consensually accepted no matter how many, many places it's presented.

Your "article" and the consensually accepted test to determine if something is alive are two different things.

Your "article" is immaterial.

The criteria test for a living being is germane, standing alone as it does on its own merit.

Again, your "article" is immaterial.

I didn't reference your article.

I referenced the consenually accepted test to determine if an entity is alive.

The sophistry story you are attempting to weave here is obvious, erroneous, of course, but obvious.
In your OP you said, "So, what does science say on the matter?" You also appealed to scientific authority when you repeat "Geneticists of respected DNA science..." several times in your OP. You used the root word "science" 27 times in your post. I take that all to mean you are basing your argument on science and the opinion of scientists.

On the contrary, honesty is important in science. Citing scientific sources is critical in scientific arguments so that the reader can evaluate how the author (you) uses the information, and where the author got the information. If you did not get your citation from the Wiki article, which is almost a verbatim excerpt of your criteria, then just where did you get the seven criteria that you used to determine if an entity is alive? That is very important if anyone is to evaluate your discussion. Then we can decide if you are practicing sophistry or not.
Though you would prefer to belittlingly demean that which DNA and life science that jibes with intuitive obvious reality have proven beyond rational conjecture to be a living being, the reason you do so is reflected in your initial projection ... and, in all fairness, you need to come clean about what appear to be your pre-conceived motivating reasons for not wanting to accept that a conception is a living human being in that person's earliest stage of being.

So, instead of accusing others of being dishonest, perhaps before you say anything more on the matter, you may want to be honest yourself and state your true motivation for denying the obvious realities I presented in the opening threads.
Read my post # 15. That is where I discuss my motivation:
"Please be aware that I am not arguing an ethical issue, I am arguing a scientific issue -- an errant interpretation."

To expand on that, ethically, I think the more than 50 million abortions that occurred since Roe vs. Wade is tragic and the most unfortunate form of birth control. However, genuine science distinguishes ethical and religious believes from scientific understanding. That is imperative to maintain the integrity of science.
 
I did not see that in the article. I maintain that you got it backwards. The virus example was given by the authors to show how narrower or broader definitions may include or exclude different life forms.

Wiki quote: "...viruses and aberrant prion proteins are often considered replicators rather than forms of life..."

The point of that paragraph was to show that the criteria listed by that author does include viruses. Making the article relevant.

Here is the quote:

"This definition notably includes viruses, which do not qualify under narrower definitions as they are acellular and do not metabolise. Broader definitions of life may also include theoretical non-carbon-based life and other alternative biology."

I'm sorry, but the article was intended to specifically address every single potential species, NOT every single organism. Chip was using the Wikipedia criteria to ask "is it alive" presumably to argue that killing a zygote is unethical.

Actually the article not only mentions that it is talking about organisms many times, like here in the defining opening sentence:



"Properties common to the known organisms found on Earth (plants, animals, fungi, protists, archaea and bacteria) are that they are carbon-and-water-based, are cellular with complex organization, undergo metabolism, possess a capacity to grow, respond to stimuli, reproduce and, through natural selection, adapt in succeeding generations."


The article was asking the question of whether some specific species or replicating entity is a form of life.

It did ask that but it also asked that of organisms too. In fact, in the above paragraph you will note that not only does it ask it of all orgnanisms but it even asks it of theoretical life forms as well.
Wiki quote: "It is important to note that life is a definition that applies primarily at the level of species..."

Which is a sentence included in the paragraph about exceptions.
 
The point of that paragraph was to show that the criteria listed by that author does include viruses. Making the article relevant.

Here is the quote:

"This definition notably includes viruses, which do not qualify under narrower definitions as they are acellular and do not metabolise. Broader definitions of life may also include theoretical non-carbon-based life and other alternative biology."
Please reread the first and second paragraph in the Wiki article. The first paragraph refers to a different definition of life than Chip used. You took your excerpt out of context. If you put the preceding sentence in where it should be, the author is saying that it is the "descent with modification" definition he is referring to, not the 7 criteria he gives later on that Chip used. It is that definition that includes viruses.

Full Wiki article quote:
"For example, the capacity for descent with modification is often taken as the only essential property of life. This definition notably includes viruses, which do not qualify under narrower definitions as they are acellular and do not metabolise"

When you include the first sentence in the quote, it changes the entire meaning of what you are saying. However we are quibbling about the meaning of the article that does not have a direct relevance to the thrust of the OP.
Actually the article not only mentions that it is talking about organisms many times, like here in the defining opening sentence:

"Properties common to the known organisms found on Earth (plants, animals, fungi, protists, archaea and bacteria) are that they are carbon-and-water-based, are cellular with complex organization, undergo metabolism, possess a capacity to grow, respond to stimuli, reproduce and, through natural selection, adapt in succeeding generations."
Yes, when we talk about life on earth we can refer to organisms.
It did ask that but it also asked that of organisms too. In fact, in the above paragraph you will note that not only does it ask it of all orgnanisms but it even asks it of theoretical life forms as well.
Which is a sentence included in the paragraph about exceptions.
Yes, the article discusses whether given organisms are a form of life. And, yes, the article discusses species and organisms and how they may or may not be forms of life depending on various definitions.

But, again, I am saying that the article refers to how an organism or species might be a form of life. It says nothing about how a zygote would be considered "alive" in the sense that Chip is trying to do.

The immediate preface to the 7 criteria in the Wiki article makes that clear.
A conventional definition

Although there is no universal agreement on the definition of life, scientists generally accept that the biological manifestation of life exhibits the following phenomena:
1..etc... 7.
Finally, Chip says that he was not referring to the Wiki article anyway, so this whole discussion is moot. The only reason I'm going through this is to say that a scientific basis has not been presented on what particular stage of development that a complex being can be considered alive. You can argue on moral grounds if you wish, but you haven't a scientific case. I will leave it to you to decide if having an omelet for breakfast is equivalent to killing a chicken. I am arguing only from a scientific basis.
 
When you include the first sentence in the quote, it changes the entire meaning of what you are saying. However we are quibbling about the meaning of the article that does not have a direct relevance to the thrust of the OP.

And I just don't even care anymore. Lets get back to the main op.
 
I don't care about the quibbling either, nor the digressions, and arguing the examples.

I did get back to the main OP in my last paragraph.

And yet, after all the discussion about the criteria for aliveness no one seriously denies that a zygote it alive. Those who want to call it a part of the mother agree that it is alive, those that want to call it a unique individual agree that it is alive. When the egg and the sperm were both parts of the mother and father they were alive and after they joined they remained alive (after all the cells did not die) and as it developed from one celled organism to multi-celled organism it remained alive.

No intelligent people claim that it is not human. It comes from humans, it has the DNA of humans as opposed to say dogs, it continues to grow as a human, etc.

The question has been for a long time now whether or not it is a person.

And does it have the right to life. For all the rest of us just being alive and being human and being innocent grants us the right to life. But for the unborn there is an added criteria, namely, that we prove it is a person.

Being a person has traditionally been based on being alive and human but for some there are now added criteria - that they cannot even agree on. Does it need to be self-aware or sentient, or feel pain, or want self-determination?

It is scary how much the debate mirrors the debate about whether or not black people were persons. Or Jews. Or Indians. Or non-Yanamamo (who had the very simple rule that if you were not born in their tribe you were not human).
 
The parasite sophistry was defeated long ago.

Scientifically speaking, to be a parasite in this matter, the newly conceived person would have to be of a different species.

Since the newly conceived person is of the same species, the term "parasite" is simply misapplied in error.
The term is not applied in error unless it is ONLY your definition that is acceptable--something with which I disagree, as do many other people.

If someone lives off of your substance then they can be considered a parasite. There is more than one definition of the word "parasite". You wish to confine the definition to the narrowest one so as to support your position, when in fact the word is used far more widely and correctly according to Merriam Webster:
2 a : an organism living in or on another living organism, obtaining from it part or all of its organic nutriment, and commonly exhibiting some degree of adaptive structural modification
3 : something that resembles a biological parasite in dependence on something else for existence or support without making a useful or adequate return

I think that the "support withou making a useful or adequate return" would apply to the situation where a woman doesn't wish to carry the child.


In our likewise bare essentials state, we adult human beings are also unable to live outside of our natural habitat: outside of the hospitable surface of planet Earth.

As you can see, that an entity is unable to live out of its natural habitat is irrelevant to this discussion.
I fail to see how it is irrelevant, if you get out of your element, then you will die, no one is required by law to save you at their own risk. When you get laws passed that require everyone to risk themselves to save others, then you can talk to me about this. You are putting forward a double standard by which women are to be required to risk for others by law. Science, my ass.

To each their own utilitarian idiosyncracy. But science and definitive propriety disagrees with you.

The objectivity of science and definitive propriety, which also matches intuitive obvious reality, does indeed successfully fly in the face of pre-conceived ideological coping mechanisms of every sophistry.
This too was argued before and shown to be nonsense. Definitive propriety means that things mean what people want them to mean.

Nevertheless, the motivation to create and implement new state-of-the-art conception prevention pharmaceuticals (that lop of the tails of sperm and harden the egg shell to impenetrability after release and the like) will likely come from realizing the truth that a newly conceived individual human being is a person rightly endowed with the foundational overriding right to life, and thus taking that life when the mother's life is not directly threatened where no other recourse is safe, is indeed murder.
This paragraph isn't science either. Science doesn't make statements like, "will likely come from realizing the truth that a newly conceived individual human being is a person rightly endowed with the foundational overriding right to life". This is irrelevant speculation about research based on a religious "right to life" for which you have not given a single scientific source.
 
And yet, after all the discussion about the criteria for aliveness no one seriously denies that a zygote it alive. Those who want to call it a part of the mother agree that it is alive, those that want to call it a unique individual agree that it is alive. When the egg and the sperm were both parts of the mother and father they were alive and after they joined they remained alive (after all the cells did not die) and as it developed from one celled organism to multi-celled organism it remained alive.

No intelligent people claim that it is not human. It comes from humans, it has the DNA of humans as opposed to say dogs, it continues to grow as a human, etc.

The question has been for a long time now whether or not it is a person.

And does it have the right to life. For all the rest of us just being alive and being human and being innocent grants us the right to life. But for the unborn there is an added criteria, namely, that we prove it is a person.

Being a person has traditionally been based on being alive and human but for some there are now added criteria - that they cannot even agree on. Does it need to be self-aware or sentient, or feel pain, or want self-determination?

It is scary how much the debate mirrors the debate about whether or not black people were persons. Or Jews. Or Indians. Or non-Yanamamo (who had the very simple rule that if you were not born in their tribe you were not human).
Look, all I was trying to get at in my posts is that the OP did not demonstrate that science or scientists have proved that the zygote was alive in the sense that abortion of the zygote would be considered as murder.

I was arguing that the 7 criteria were being misinterpreted or misrepresented.

If people are interested in criteria derived from law or religion or whatever, that is a different matter and argument, and I stayed away from it.

So from the standpoint of science, I'm not going to enter into a discussion about dogs, or Indians, or whatever because that is not the point I was addressing.
 
Look, all I was trying to get at in my posts is that the OP did not demonstrate that science or scientists have proved that the zygote was alive
But clearly, the opening post most certainly did demonstrate that from an unconjecturably state-of-the-art accurate scientific perspective at least one unique individual human being absolutely does begin to live at the moment of conception.

The scientific fact of this matter is so obvious a reality ... I'm left to wonder what it is that's blinding you into your unjustified attack on the opening post's accurate scientific presentation.


in the sense that abortion of the zygote would be considered as murder.
Ah, and there it is, the reason that's bothering you to the degree you deny the obvious scientific reality of the opening post: you're troubled by the implications.

Indeed, though abortion on demand may personally trouble you, like most, you're apprehensive about the thought of being incarcerated -- or worse -- for murdering a newly conceived person ... so troubled by that thought that you are thereby blinded by cognitive dissonance to the degree that you can't see that the opening post most clearly beyond rational conjecture presented the scientific reality that at least one unique individual human being, at least one person, begins to live at the moment of conception.


I was arguing that the 7 criteria were being misinterpreted or misrepresented.
Yes, you were, though obviously without merit.

And, obviously, your argument is based, not on rational reason, but on your own personal fear of what the opening post reality will mean to society ... and maybe even to you, personally.


If people are interested in criteria derived from law
Your implication that the opening post contained legal and not scientific criteria is, of course, false.


or religion
Your implication that the opening post contained religious criteria is also, of course, false.


or whatever,
Your implication that the opening post contained anything other than accurately presented unconjecturably state-of-the-art scientific criteria is again, of course, false.


that is a different matter and argument, and I stayed away from it.
No you didn't.

By making your statement as you did here, you were alluding to the opening post being other than truly scientific in nature, which means you didn't stay away from these matters in your fear of what the opening post means, hoping to devalue the opening post by casting dispersions that are unwarranted.


So from the standpoint of science, I'm not going to enter into a discussion about dogs, or Indians, or whatever because that is not the point I was addressing.
Though your statement about "dogs, or Indians, or whatever" is topically irrelevant ... what you were truly addressing was your fear of what the reality of personhood at conception will ultimately mean ...

... And in so doing you are spot-on topically ...

... Because, indeed, facing the truth that at least one person, one unique individual human being, begins to live at the moment of conception rationally means also facing the truth that to unjustifiably take any action with the intent to kill that person, action that succeeds in so killing, when that person was not rationally a legitimate threat on the life of the mother, is, most certainly, clearly, rationally, murder by definition ... and, perhaps, one day, maybe sooner than we like to think, law will also reflect the truth of it.

This is the crux of the matter when accepting the truth of the newly conceived person's existence.

And many people, who so greatly fear those repercussions, rather than maturely accepting the natural inevitibility of those repercussions, can concoct some of the most creative sophistries of denying the scientific truth of the matter. :cool:
 
The perfect recipe for scrambled chickens.

Take a couple of egs with a spec in the yolk caused by fertlisation

Then break them into a bowl and beat them together with a little milk and butter.

Then put in a pan and heat for around 4 minutes stirring regulally.

Voila, perfect scrambled chickens.
 
The "consensually accepted conventional multi-criteria test" was misused. The criteria that they gave tells us that the human zygote is a homosapien life form. The criteria was never meant to say that the undeveloped zygote is "alive."

"Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being—a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings." John C. Fletcher, Mark I. Evans, "Maternal Bonding in Early Fetal Ultrasound Examinations," New England Journal of Medicine, February 17, 1983.

"It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitues the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual.Human Embryology, 3rd ed. Bradley M. Patten, (New York: McGraw), 43

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human being is thereby formed... The zygote is a unicellular human being... Ronan R. O'Rahilly, Fabiola Muller, (New York: Wiley-Liss), 5, 55. EMBRYOLOGY & TERATOLOGY

These are just a few exerpts from medical school textbooks and medial journals used to teach the subjects of embryology, fetology, human developmental biology, and OB/Gyn. I would be interested in seeing some credible materials that state that the zygote is not alive.
 
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The perfect recipe for scrambled chickens.

Take a couple of egs with a spec in the yolk caused by fertlisation

Then break them into a bowl and beat them together with a little milk and butter.

Then put in a pan and heat for around 4 minutes stirring regulally.

Voila, perfect scrambled chickens.


Haven't we already been through this and established that you lack even the most basic knowledge in the area of developmental biology? The eggs you buy in the grocery store come from egg farms were the chickens aren't interacting with roosters. Therefore the eggs from the store are just eggs. If you get your eggs from farms where the hens are interacting with roosters, and the egg was fertilized prior to being laid, then there is indeed a chicken inside the shell. You seem to be under the impression that simply because it is called an egg, that it is indeed an egg and not a chicken. Your ignorance on the subject is no substitute for rational argument.
 
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