Yes, I believe that they have seen their wealth increase. I wish mine had. If you can find that percentage, we should be able to come to a conclusion as to how fair the taxes really are.
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Yes, I believe that they have seen their wealth increase. I wish mine had. If you can find that percentage, we should be able to come to a conclusion as to how fair the taxes really are.
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GenSeneca
Well-Known Member
Then I quote you on that... And when it reaches 50% You'll say it should be 60% and so on...
I'm defending Individual Rights. If you grant the government power to infringe upon the rights of any individual, or minority of individuals, you grant government the power to infringe on the rights of all individuals.
clarkatticus
Well-Known Member
I believe that a new tax code is the only long term fix for what is wrong. Taxing the poor is pointless, it would cost more to investigate why a poor person didn't pay his share than what one could collect. If a poor person cannot afford housing, then how will they pay taxes? We think of money as the only benefit to our society when is actually the least of our windfall given to us by our forefathers. Just the ability to become wealthy in a free society, to tend to your family and most important, the pursuit of happiness. Money is a tool we use. 5% of America is unemployable, are they still Americans? What part of the American dream are they to be allowed? Are all of them truly lazy or do they just think and motivate differently than you? Another question, consider the entire wealth of our nation, not just financial but that included, where in the Constitution does it say that 1% of our citizens should control so much or that it is even a good idea? To be sure, economics may have built this nation to where it is, but is it the only peg we hang our hat on? Are you willing to say that is the most important thing we stand for?
Openmind
Well-Known Member
All very important and thought provoking questions, Clark. . .Unfortunately, I'm afraid they would be answered across "party line" again, which is what played a big role in bringing us to this situation to begin with!
But the most important point you brought up is "We think of money as the only benefit to our society when is actually the least of our windfall given to us by our forefathers." So true!
If people answered with their conscience and heart, rather than their wallets, so many issues could be resolved!
You are able to take part in the American Dream if you want to. No one is going to hand it to you. If you want to stand for other things, then by all means, do so, but don't then complain that someone else is not paying your bills while you stand for those things.
As for the Constitution, where does it say that wealth is supposed to even divided among the population?
The American Dream is open to anyone who wants to work for it.
we are free to excel or fail. where does it say there is a limit on your freedom to do so ? and where does it say the govt is responsible for your failure ?
Openmind
Well-Known Member
NO ONE says thatt wealth is suppose to be evenly divided among the population! But it certainly isn't supposed to be divided 42% to the 1% on top, and 58% for the other 99%!
Can't you see that? Can't you see that it is getting worse every 10 years, and that. . .at the end, it is just NOT sustainable?
How much wealth do you think the top 1% should be allowed to hold? 50%? 70%? Why? because so much of it is inherited?
I know you have a special interest in the inherited wealth. . .Still, I think of you as a fair person. . .and I am pretty sure you are NOT in the top !%!
The American dream is more and more of an illusion every day for 60% of the people! Can't you see that? Except for winning the lottery, or for an exceptional GENIUS like Steve Jobs. . .the rest of the bottom 60% have NO CHANCE to ever REACH the American dream!
Openmind
Well-Known Member
Funny! In all the posts I read from you. . .the government is responsible for EVERYTHING negative!
Make up your mind!
No one says the wealth is supposed to be even divided, and yet your next statement is about how we need to divide the wealth more evenly.
"Allowed to hold"? That is absurd. People are "allowed to hold" what they earned. Who are you to decide they have too much?
All I know is that Obama puts me the category of "flying the corporate jet around" (yea right) and that I need to pay my fair share. Despite any inheritance we make over what is called "rich" by the Obama Administration.
As for being in the top 1%, just how much money does one need to break into that category I wonder? (I am actually curious)
60% of the country has no chance at the American Dream? Give me a break. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to get ahead. I have a friend for example who started out working at McDonald's making burgers, now he owns 27 McDonalds. He did that not because he decided he was content with his situation or that he had no hope of making, he just went out and did it.
If you grow up poor, and go to school, and don't study hard, or drop out, and then don't make anything of yourself, it is not because the American Dream is unattainable, it is because you didn't work hard enough to get there.
Openmind
Well-Known Member
You have ONE friend who succeeded (you're telling me!) and didn't "inherit" his wealth!
Big deal!
And. . .do you really believe that there is NO room for improvement between the top 1% holding 42% of the wealth and . . .let's say the top 1% holding 25% of the wealth?
I would just be happy to see the trend of growing wealth for the top 1%, and growing poverty for the bottom 60% REVERSE. . .even if it was just 1% reversal a year for the next 10 or 20 years!
And you think "I" am being unreasonable?
Where do you think that "wealth" came from? NOT necessarely through hard work, but through a lot of luck, some inheritance, favorable tax schedule including a lot of loop holes and NO tax on accumulated wealth.
A significant percentage of the top wealth is actually not from work INCOME, but from accumulated wealth!
Hard work? The nurse works hard, damn hard. The brick layer works hard, the social worker works hard, but. . .because they can't "accumulate" wealth, they are brushed aside as "not working hard enough!
Wonderful world of Capitalism! NOT!
Funny! In all the posts I read from you. . .the government is responsible for EVERYTHING negative!
Make up your mind!
govt impedes commerce horribly which harms all indirectly. thats enough.
Openmind
Well-Known Member
Sure. . .and I though you were against trade agreements?
And I thought you were smart enough to recognize that Europeans (especially Germany, France, and Belgium) who have MUCH more involved government regulations and labor laws are doing a LOT better than we are in commerce?
See, one common element in those "successful" commerce countries is. . .that they have universal health care, so employers do not have to worry about the increasing cost of health care for their employees. . .
That "government" regulation is a HUGE benefit for employers AND employees, AND provide more stability!
I have many more than one friend who has done this...you can make a good life for yourself without inheriting a dime.
Yes, it is a big deal, and he should be applauded.
If Bill Gates and Warren Buffett decided to move all their money overseas tommorow, the "wealth gap" would close some. But, has it made any difference? Is anyone any better off? Clearly, the answer is no...yet you would be forced to argue that yes, we are all better off because the wealth gap has closed some. That makes no sense.
I don't think you are unreasonable, if you want to see that trend occur, go out and earn it.
So in your mind, people get super rich by gaming the tax system? Give me a break. Further, somewhere along the way, that wealth was earned. I am sure you want to leave something to your kids, did you not earn the money you want to leave them?
No one disputes that they work hard...but no one deserves to be "rich" simply because they are a brick layer or a nurse either.
What is your alternative?
Openmind
Well-Known Member
Again, you seem to believe that what the 99% of the people want is to be "WEALTHY like the top 1%!"
You are missing the point all together! They are not envious of the consipicuous wealth of the top 1%, of their yachts and mansions. . .what people want is to have a chance at a decent life, at a home, at education for their children, at a vacation once in awhile, at some certitude that, if one of their loved ones is suddenly diagnosed with a life threatening disease, they will have access to health care without counting on "charity" or having to declare bancrupcy!
NO ONE said that the brick layer or the nurses wanted to be "wealthy!" What I said is that these people WORK as hard, or harder than the CEO's or people on Wall Street, and yet have very little to show for it!
You can defend the "right" of the top 1% to keep (and continue to amass their wealth) regardless of how poor the bottom 60% gets. . .that they have NO reason to feel a little awkward with their "luck" compare to those hard working people who fall through the crack, that they have the right to make fun or disregard the suffering of the elderly and the disabled who make a SIGNIFICANT part of the poorest population. . .just because "they earned their wealth," but NO ONE has the right to built their home on the work of others without even acknowledging that those others DO HAVE A RIGHT to the "pursuit of happiness" as much as they do, and that continuing to get richer, when the majority gets poorer is NOT sustainable.
And, by the way. . .My husband worked hard, very hard, to pull himself out of the disadvantaged area of Montana where he grew up, to become an executive in the Computer industry when he started his work life at the age of 12 in a saw mill in Darby, Montana. I worked hard raising my kids, then going to college to earn degrees, and then selected (thanks to my husband's generous income) to serve people for a (much lower) income, rather than join the "MBA crowd). I have NOTHING to be embarassed about. . . and I do know about hard work.
But I also know about hard work that doesn't get you all those rewards. I know about people who, no matter how hard they try, do not have a IQ high enough to succeed in those "favorite climbing careers," and yet who want their kids to have the chance they didn't have.
That focus on "wealth" is totally ridiculous, when it takes away from HUMAN compassion, human respect, human rights to exist at some levels above survival!
I am just surprised that YOU, of all people, do not see that.
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