10 Reasons Gay Marriage is Unamerican and Wrong

Re: 10 Reasons Gay Marriage is Unamerican and Wrong.

All of that is quite logical, in a circular sort of way.

Marriage is for procreation, therefore, any marriage that doesn't result in procreation is not really a marriage, because marriage is for procreation.

So, couples who can not, or choose not to, produce children should not be married. Birth control is "disordered" also, as it limits procreation. Homosexual sex is likewise "disordered."

It seems to me that if every sex act ever accomplished resulted in procreation, we'd be knee deep in babies.

That's not what I'm saying, though. Perhaps I've been unclear. Let me attempt to explain.

Everything that exists in nature can be said to have a "form" or "essence" in which it is said to "participate" or "instantiate." This is distinct from "substance," which is simply what makes up an individual object. So my substance is flesh, bone, blood, organ tissue, etc., arranged in the form of a human male.

Note that the form (as an idea) exists independently of its manifestation in any particular object. A car seat, a bar stool, and an old wooden rocking chair are all forms of "chair." You may not be able to imagine what "chair" looks like as a form but you nevertheless are able to identify one when you see one.

(This is actually what is meant when Christians talk about the "soul": it is simply the form of the human person. Obviously, it cannot exist independent of substance: hence the importance of the teaching of the Resurrection).

It is also the case that everything in nature points toward some end. Generally this is determined by the most obvious function or feature of a thing. Chairs are for sitting (though you can obviously use them also for stacking up old books). Eyes are for seeing. Legs are for moving you around. And so on.

Natural law simply asserts that it is good for a thing to act in accordance with its end. Thus a "good" dog is one that most perfectly instantiates the essence of "dogness," which (for the most part) is loyalty and companionship, and occasionally security and protection, assistance in hunting, pulling weight, etc. Obviously this will depend on the breed and the purpose: guard dog breeds are bred for a different end than dogs bred for loyalty, for instance.

Now, "badness" does not consist in having some other feature than what its essence suggests (so that a loyal dog may also be highly intelligent, although this is unnecessary), but in positively contradicting its essence (so that a "bad" dog is one that is contrary to the end of loyalty and companionship: it would be disobedient, aggressive, timid, etc.).

The defining characteristic of the human person is his reason and will -- without these two things he would not be "man" as he is understood but simply be a relatively hairless ape. But man is not purely a creature of reason and will; he is also incorporated in flesh, and his body parts serve various ends, as well.

Specifically, his sexual configuration serves a very obvious end: procreation. It is for this reason that men have the genitals they do, and women the ones they do; it is specifically designed to promote pregnancy (even the shape of the male penis encourages pregnancy). So, too, is amorous love (which drives couples to regular sex). A pregnant woman, of course, is one in need of protection and caretaking, since her condition exposes her to a number of infirmities; the same is true of their child. This necessarily implies a degree of obligation on the part of the man, who, in order to fully realize the potential of his procreative faculty, is obliged to stick around and commit to the act of caring for his wife and raising his child. This is the simple, natural fact from which marriage arises.

Now, if it is good for a thing to act according to its end, and bad for it to act in a fashion contrary to its end, than obviously every sexual act must be ordered toward procreation. Note that this is an argument in principle, without regard to particular circumstances: it must be objectively capable of resulting in procreation, though it need not do so every time. The logical conclusion of this is that the sexual act is morally licit provided it is completed in a fashion that could result in pregnancy, even if the one of the partners is (chronically or temporarily) not fecund. By contrast, the sexual act is illicit when it is, in principle, incapable of resulting in procreation: when it concludes in a fashion that could not result in pregnancy; when steps are taken to deliberately subvert the procreative nature of the act; or when no other partner is present. Thus by definition homosexual acts are disordered: they are contrary to the order nature has ordained.

If homosexual acts are intrinsically incapable of procreation (and they are), then logically they form no basis for marriage.

Yes, this obviously means that a wide variety of things accepted today -- most sexual fetishism, homosexuality, masturbation, contraception, premarital sex (remember the sexual act is not merely ordered toward its completion but its fulfillment in the raising of children), etc. -- are morally illicit. But that a truth is inconvenient does not fail to make it a truth.
 
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Re: 10 Reasons Gay Marriage is Unamerican and Wrong.

That's not what I'm saying, though. Perhaps I've been unclear. Let me attempt to explain.

Everything that exists in nature can be said to have a "form" or "essence" in which it is said to "participate" or "instantiate." This is distinct from "substance," which is simply what makes up an individual object. So my substance is flesh, bone, blood, organ tissue, etc., arranged in the form of a human male.

Note that the form (as an idea) exists independently of its manifestation in any particular object. A car seat, a bar stool, and an old wooden rocking chair are all forms of "chair." You may not be able to imagine what "chair" looks like as a form but you nevertheless are able to identify one when you see one.

(This is actually what is meant when Christians talk about the "soul": it is simply the form of the human person. Obviously, it cannot exist independent of substance: hence the importance of the teaching of the Resurrection).

It is also the case that everything in nature points toward some end. Generally this is determined by the most obvious function or feature of a thing. Chairs are for sitting (though you can obviously use them also for stacking up old books). Eyes are for seeing. Legs are for moving you around. And so on.

Natural law simply asserts that it is good for a thing to act in accordance with its end. Thus a "good" dog is one that most perfectly instantiates the essence of "dogness," which (for the most part) is loyalty and companionship, and occasionally security and protection, assistance in hunting, pulling weight, etc. Obviously this will depend on the breed and the purpose: guard dog breeds are bred for a different end than dogs bred for loyalty, for instance.

Now, "badness" does not consist in having some other feature than what its essence suggests (so that a loyal dog may also be highly intelligent, although this is unnecessary), but in positively contradicting its essence (so that a "bad" dog is one that is contrary to the end of loyalty and companionship: it would be disobedient, aggressive, timid, etc.).

The defining characteristic of the human person is his reason and will -- without these two things he would not be "man" as he is understood but simply be a relatively hairless ape. But man is not purely a creature of reason and will; he is also incorporated in flesh, and his body parts serve various ends, as well.

Specifically, his sexual configuration serves a very obvious end: procreation. It is for this reason that men have the genitals they do, and women the ones they do; it is specifically designed to promote pregnancy (even the shape of the male penis encourages pregnancy). So, too, is amorous love (which drives couples to regular sex). A pregnant woman, of course, is one in need of protection and caretaking, since her condition exposes her to a number of infirmities; the same is true of their child. This necessarily implies a degree of obligation on the part of the man, who, in order to fully realize the potential of his procreative faculty, is obliged to stick around and commit to the act of caring for his wife and raising his child. This is the simple, natural fact from which marriage arises.

Now, if it is good for a thing to act according to its end, and bad for it to act in a fashion contrary to its end, than obviously every sexual act must be ordered toward procreation. Note that this is an argument in principle, without regard to particular circumstances: it must be objectively capable of resulting in procreation, though it need not do so every time. The logical conclusion of this is that the sexual act is morally licit provided it is completed in a fashion that could result in pregnancy, even if the one of the partners is (chronically or temporarily) not fecund. By contrast, the sexual act is illicit when it is, in principle, incapable of resulting in procreation: when it concludes in a fashion that could not result in pregnancy; when steps are taken to deliberately subvert the procreative nature of the act; or when no other partner is present. Thus by definition homosexual acts are disordered: they are contrary to the order nature has ordained.

If homosexual acts are intrinsically incapable of procreation (and they are), then logically they form no basis for marriage.

Yes, this obviously means that a wide variety of things accepted today -- most sexual fetishism, homosexuality, masturbation, contraception, premarital sex (remember the sexual act is not merely ordered toward its completion but its fulfillment in the raising of children), etc. -- are morally illicit. But that a truth is inconvenient does not fail to make it a truth.

I understand what you're saying, and I still disagree.

Yes, a chair has for main purpose to sit. Yet, a chair may be a lot more useful to stand on (if you need to reach a high point in your home), or to block a door agains intruders, or to serve as an art object in a museum. All these possible functions do not take away from its primary function, but broaden the usefulnessof that chair.

Also, time have greatly evolved, and continue to evolved. The "chairs" of 1000 year ago are no longer the chairs of today (Thank God!).

I also disagree that the only way to "honor" the soul is to do so through Christianity. EVERYONE, Christian or not, religious or not, has a soul. Whether or not that person develop the essential qualities of that soul depends on the individual. And it is NOT for us to judge whether a "soul" who believes in Christ is more or less than a soul who believes in the earth's life energy, or in Buddha.

I do admire your commitment to your faith, but there is a fine line where one's commitment to one's faith can become a rejection of everyone else's faith, and it then becomes intolerance and arrogance. No, I do not call you arrogant. I believe you haven't reached that point, and I think (for the very little I know of you) that you may be intelligent enough not to reach that point.

Still, it sounds like a lot of your knowledge, at least in theology, is based on "book learning," and very little experience in "living" the life.
 
I understand what you're saying, and I still disagree.

Yes, a chair has for main purpose to sit. Yet, a chair may be a lot more useful to stand on (if you need to reach a high point in your home), or to block a door agains intruders, or to serve as an art object in a museum. All these possible functions do not take away from its primary function, but broaden the usefulnessof that chair.

I made that point above. To use an object for a purpose other than its telos is not itself illicit: it is when that purpose is contrary to its telos that it rises to the level of disorder. I cannot think of how one could use a chair that is actually contrary to its purpose, though.

A better example might be one's legs. Obviously, their primary purpose is locomotion -- for getting you around. It is licit, of course, to use them for supplementary purposes, such as balancing something on my knee. It would be illicit to subvert the locomotive purpose by hacking off my own leg so I can claim disability insurance (or something -- you get the idea).

Also, time have greatly evolved, and continue to evolved. The "chairs" of 1000 year ago are no longer the chairs of today (Thank God!).

The form of "chairness" remains the same though. What has changed are merely styles: fashions of arranging the substance which constitutes them.

I also disagree that the only way to "honor" the soul is to do so through Christianity. EVERYONE, Christian or not, religious or not, has a soul. Whether or not that person develop the essential qualities of that soul depends on the individual. And it is NOT for us to judge whether a "soul" who believes in Christ is more or less than a soul who believes in the earth's life energy, or in Buddha.

I don't presume to say so. It is for God alone to judge the fates of men. I am simply pointing out what has already been revealed to us by reason and revelation as a means of attaining virtue.

I do admire your commitment to your faith, but there is a fine line where one's commitment to one's faith can become a rejection of everyone else's faith, and it then becomes intolerance and arrogance. No, I do not call you arrogant. I believe you haven't reached that point, and I think (for the very little I know of you) that you may be intelligent enough not to reach that point.

Still, it sounds like a lot of your knowledge, at least in theology, is based on "book learning," and very little experience in "living" the life.

That may be the case. But I don't see that truths change with individuals' experience; that's why they're truths.
 
I made that point above. To use an object for a purpose other than its telos is not itself illicit: it is when that purpose is contrary to its telos that it rises to the level of disorder. I cannot think of how one could use a chair that is actually contrary to its purpose, though.

A better example might be one's legs. Obviously, their primary purpose is locomotion -- for getting you around. It is licit, of course, to use them for supplementary purposes, such as balancing something on my knee. It would be illicit to subvert the locomotive purpose by hacking off my own leg so I can claim disability insurance (or something -- you get the idea).



The form of "chairness" remains the same though. What has changed are merely styles: fashions of arranging the substance which constitutes them.



I don't presume to say so. It is for God alone to judge the fates of men. I am simply pointing out what has already been revealed to us by reason and revelation as a means of attaining virtue.



That may be the case. But I don't see that truths change with individuals' experience; that's why they're truths.

I disagree. Although I was lucky enough to never have been prejudice towards gay people, I didn't know much about them. Then I began working as a social worker with a AIDS project, at a time when people were still dying with AIDS. That is where I realize what the experiencing of people is so different from what books can teach you.

And I do not believe that love, any kind of love, can be at the opposite end of our purpose in life.
I am an heterosexual woman, married 40 years to the same man. And I do not believe that our purpose has been to "procreate," although we did have a child, and we adopted another child. And I do not believe that gay marriage is as much of a threat to our marriage than heterosexual marriages gone wrong (so wrong!).

In my conscience, within that special communication I have with my God, I know that he smiles when I am supporting my fellow men and women's right to love. I understand that your experience with God is different, and I'm sorry for you. But I do respect that you are following your own conscience and your own integrity.
 
I disagree. Although I was lucky enough to never have been prejudice towards gay people, I didn't know much about them. Then I began working as a social worker with a AIDS project, at a time when people were still dying with AIDS. That is where I realize what the experiencing of people is so different from what books can teach you.

And I do not believe that love, any kind of love, can be at the opposite end of our purpose in life.
I am an heterosexual woman, married 40 years to the same man. And I do not believe that our purpose has been to "procreate," although we did have a child, and we adopted another child. And I do not believe that gay marriage is as much of a threat to our marriage than heterosexual marriages gone wrong (so wrong!).

In my conscience, within that special communication I have with my God, I know that he smiles when I am supporting my fellow men and women's right to love. I understand that your experience with God is different, and I'm sorry for you. But I do respect that you are following your own conscience and your own integrity.

You think I've had no contact with homosexuals? I graduated from a liberal arts school on the east coast for Heaven's sake.

Your experience doesn't change objective truth -- in fact, by definition, objective truth exists independent of and prior to experience. Unless you believe objective truth doesn't exist, in which case why should I listen to anything you say?

As for conscience, it is a useful barometer to the good (sometimes) but it must be molded according to the truth as revealed by reason and natural law, and not merely accepted as a rationalization for one's emotions.
 
You think I've had no contact with homosexuals? I graduated from a liberal arts school on the east coast for Heaven's sake.

Your experience doesn't change objective truth -- in fact, by definition, objective truth exists independent of and prior to experience. Unless you believe objective truth doesn't exist, in which case why should I listen to anything you say?

As for conscience, it is a useful barometer to the good (sometimes) but it must be molded according to the truth as revealed by reason and natural law, and not merely accepted as a rationalization for one's emotions.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue. But at least I trust that your feelings about gay people will not lead you into nastiness and hatred of them.

I believe you are an intelligent and fair person.
By the way, although I graduated from an university on the WEST coast that is renown as THE most liberal university in the U.S. (shouldn't be hard for you to figure out which one!), and there were many gays and gay organizations surrounding me during my undergraduate studies, it is only when I actually worked with gay people and their family during my graduate studies that I got to appreciate them fully.

Thanks for a good debate, even if there is no real agreement. :)
 
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue. But at least I trust that your feelings about gay people will not lead you into nastiness and hatred of them.

I believe you are an intelligent and fair person.
By the way, although I graduated from an university on the WEST coast that is renown as THE most liberal university in the U.S. (shouldn't be hard for you to figure out which one!), and there were many gays and gay organizations surrounding me during my undergraduate studies, it is only when I actually worked with gay people and their family during my graduate studies that I got to appreciate them fully.

Thanks for a good debate, even if there is no real agreement. :)
Exactly! The best way to understanding "them" (whoever "them" is) is to work with "them" and be around "them" long enough for "them" to be "us."
 
Exactly! The best way to understanding "them" (whoever "them" is) is to work with "them" and be around "them" long enough for "them" to be "us."

Well said.

One of the hallmarks of an educated person is the ability to relate to people who are different from themselves.
 
Well said.

One of the hallmarks of an educated person is the ability to relate to people who are different from themselves.

Everyone is different in some way. Bridging those differences is what makes us great as a nation.

It is a constant amazement to me how quickly America absorbs an influx of immigrants from a stricken nation. In my lifetime I have seen Irish, French, Italian, Bosnian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Korean, Indian, and Hungarian immigrants go through the absorption process. Two of my own grandparents were born in Scotland.

In every instance we gained something as a country by them being here.

African-American has been a problem to absorb, but then we started from a pretty bad place with that gap.
 
Everyone is different in some way. Bridging those differences is what makes us great as a nation.

It is a constant amazement to me how quickly America absorbs an influx of immigrants from a stricken nation. In my lifetime I have seen Irish, French, Italian, Bosnian, Vietnamese, Chinese, Korean, Indian, and Hungarian immigrants go through the absorption process. Two of my own grandparents were born in Scotland.

In every instance we gained something as a country by them being here.

African-American has been a problem to absorb, but then we started from a pretty bad place with that gap.

I agree with what you said, but I think you need to give some of the credit not so much to the established Americans, but to the immigrants who, in spite of the difficulties placed in front of them, (sometime major difficulties, such as prejudice) managed to integrate by at least the second generations!
 
A few signs from supporters of gay marriage:

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4e1dd5617e718.jpg


4e1dd59405134.jpg
 
A few signs from supporters of gay marriage:

4e1dd57d2307e.jpg


4e1dd5617e718.jpg


4e1dd59405134.jpg

You do have to admit (I know you're a fair person, whatever your convictions) that at least their signs show some smarts and humor!

No "God hates fags" here! Not even "God hates intolerance!" which would be a pretty fair bet!

I love them!
 
Well said.

One of the hallmarks of an educated person is the ability to relate to people who are different from themselves.


Has nothing to do with education P. Intelligence maybe but not even really that. Any con man does the same thing and they are often poorly educated and not always intelligent.
 
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You do have to admit (I know you're a fair person, whatever your convictions) that at least their signs show some smarts and humor!

No "God hates fags" here! Not even "God hates intolerance!" which would be a pretty fair bet!

I love them!


God does not favor tolerance of sin. Just sayin...
 
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