Taxation Is Robbery

Easy to see the reason for a bit of anger, theres no less than 5 of you attacking her position, at the same time..........and i think she actually has faired well throughout the onslaught.

I don't see where anyone "Shredded" anything here i see two distinct viewpoints on this issue.and a fair amount of smugness and disdain.Dissenters are far more patriotic than the line towers


have all of you seen the speech that Ron paul made in may?
about Patriotism? its a great speech i reccomend you all watch it.they werent attacking Libretarianism Sublime....there were attacking her Viewpoints


I would have more respect for her position were she to actually debate. She starts the attack, and quickly resorts to insults as soon as you even question her argument. Sorry Roker...I don't respect that...I'll treat someone with respect until they show me they aren't deserving of it...and she has not done so:p
 
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Im not asking anyone to do or change anything....was just saying what i saw is all. Its easy to end up in that situation, when multiple people are questioning your belief system. its a natural thing,at least thats what i think ...like the cornered cat?


Actually i dont think you have been entirely disrespectful, you have stated your views which differ very much from T-B's. its bound to be "charged" when folks are so far apart on an issue.

I know that when you get 3-5 folks all at you at the same time i myself feel cornered, and also do what i need to to try and do whatever. I think overall though some of the points on both sides are being ignored, as the drama of the difference of opinion takes front stage..

please do watch the speech above and let me know what you all think
 
I also believe that it is Not Anger that really is what you see with T-B.....what you find with her, is a "PASSION" for what she believes in.The Patriot is always scorned, and yet they go on .........it's about bringing the truths to the people.

it really dosent matter if they all believe in your cause or not...........its about the fact that one is willing to stand in the face of tyranny ...in order to alert the people
 
Somewhere between what you all believe, and what we believe is reality. So with that known maybe we are wrong..........and then again, maybe YOU are wrong?
Maybe we are all "wrong" to a certain extent, and then again, maybe we are all "right" as well?

two ends of the spectrum

again i ask watch the videos and let it sink in
 
Truth-bringer, you seem like a very angry person. As soon as someone attacks libertarianism, you go nuts. You've turned me off libertarianism.

You have totally misunderstood me then. I am not an angry person. Not in the slightest. How exactly do you define "going nuts"? I am participating in a debate - with people who continuously foist logical fallacies, lies, deceptions, obfuscation and opinion up as fact.

The attitude you perceive is a response to the arrogance of numinus and coyote. An arrogance that has no place as they must continuously try to obfuscate and complicate matters to continue debating ad nauseum.

Libertarianism is simply about a society based on non-aggression. It is about the right of every individual to engage in any peaceful, honest, voluntary activity that he or she chooses as long as he or she does not initiate force, fraud or coercion against like-minded people.

And for the record, 9sublime, I'd like to state that I've always had quite a bit of respect for you.
 
I also believe that it is Not Anger that really is what you see with T-B.....what you find with her, is a "PASSION" for what she believes in.The Patriot is always scorned, and yet they go on .........it's about bringing the truths to the people.

it really dosent matter if they all believe in your cause or not...........its about the fact that one is willing to stand in the face of tyranny ...in order to alert the people

Absolutely correct.
 
I had a thought the other day (yes, Truth-Bringer, you may insert the "Wow! A thought! What a surprise!" joke here). If you're planning on paying for whatever small, limited government is left after taking apart the welfare programs (and any other programs you think are unnecessary), you're still going to have to collect money somehow. I vaguely remember you saying you'd do it using a tariff (if I'm wrong about that I sincerely apologize for misremembering). But wouldn't high tariffs be self-destructive?

Think about it. Economically speaking, tariffs provide domestic protection. Institute a high baseline tariff, then you're providing a high level of protection for American industries - as it becomes more expensive to import goods into the US, more companies start bringing their business back to our shores. As the prices of goods imported into the US rise, consumers stop buying them in favor of domestic goods. For a few years, the economy flourishes.

Then the government collapses completely. Eventually, we'll stop importing all but a very few things, as it is more cost-effective for companies to simply set up shop here in America. The tariffs that are used to pay for the government don't bring in enough money to prop up the government, so the government goes broke. Government collapses, and then you have anarchy - which I'm pretty sure no one wants.

I'm hardly an economist, but if I have all my historical econ lessons straight, that's generally how tariffs work. Your thoughts, Truth-Bringer?
 
What I understand is that your fallacious nonsense is becoming extremely tiresome. Again, the will of the majority does not equate to the common good, and the legislators are elected by the majority.

LOL

You haven't addressed any of the points raised, and yet you feel tired?

Your entire "argument" is a nonsensical FLUID THING because if you stopped shifting definitions, your fallacious position would be easily exposed.

And why is that?
And not paying taxes makes more sense, eh? Unbelievable!

The WILL OF THE MAJORITY simply vacillates from one thing to the next - hence, FLUID. There is a difference between a democracy and mob-rule, you know.

Do you need proof of that or do you understand the statement as is?

What is necessary for real progress is the freedom for each and every individual to engage in any peaceful, honest, voluntary activity that he or she chooses. Any association that limits this freedom is an obstacle to progress.
That's simply more ineffable twaddle!

The present political association GUARANTEES exactly that with the strength of the COMMON FORCE.

Such a thing is NOT possible in the absence of the political association. In such case, a common force does not exist - only that which you possess in your own person.

It is already irrelevant in what form one's contributions to society is given - suffice to say that it must, to a very large extent, be dependent on how much direct benefit one obtains from it.

Hence the idea of PROGRESSIVE TAXATION.

One also need only look at human history to see that "political associations" are the greatest mass murderers in that history.

LMAO

This statement is vague at best, and entirely misleading at worst!

There is NO epoch in human history in which some form of the political association did not exist.

And so, in saying that they are the 'greatest so and so' - to what exactly are you comparing it to?

So who gets to determine corrections? Again, we're back to your only possible answer - the majority. Yet why does an oppressed minority have to wait on the "reconstitution of the social, political and economic order to correct" their situation?

And the minority is not part of the political process, eh?

And an oppressed minority has no way of petitioning their government, eh?

And the rule of law is not applicable to the minority as well, eh?

And the minority will is absolutely irreconcilable to the majority will and vice-versa, eh?

And anarchy is so much better, even if its practical operation is totally INCONCIEVABLE, eh?

And, last but not least, that the minority, not having their way, can simply withhold the taxes they derive benefit from, eh?

Sell silly someplace else.

Majorities have indeed been proven many times to be impervious to human reason - as with the support of slavery.

LMAO

The civil war and the emancipation of the slave didn't happen. It's all an illusion!

What patent nonsense!

If you say they EVENTUALLY learn -again, my question is - what recourse do those who claim to be oppressed have in the meantime?

Inherent in the social contract is the RIGHT OF RESISTANCE, which itself follows a well-defined and rational principle and justification.

The fact that you even ask this is proof enough that you have not read any treatise on the social contract (anarchy being a political model more suited to your particular frame of mind) and is arguing against it out of sheer IGNORANCE.

Not an answer.

There are a multitude of forms that the political association take - all of which have their distinct political dynamics.

Ask a stupid question, you can expect a stupid answer.

Idiocy. That doensn't answer the question. I'm asking you to define the steps of the actual process you call "tempering."

When one acts according to rational and common good that is applicable to all, that's how.

The whole process occurs within the legislator's mind and conscience.

You seem to have a problem with logic. How does this debate transpire? How does one become qualified to become a "debater" in the system? Why do some have a voice and others do not? What if the minority is right and the majority is wrong?

You haven't watched a debate of say, the british parliament?

You really need to crawl out of the rock you are presently in.

Again with more idiocy. You can do nothing but avoid specifics. I'm asking you to define the steps of this "Consensus building." The minority isn't applying a law equally to itself if it votes against the majority wishes.

Consensus building differs from one form of political association to another.

The only reason I avoid specifics in my answers is because you avoid specifics in your questions.

LOL. That'd be worth about half a penny.

Ah, for the indigent like yourself - I'll do it for free. I'll consider it as similar to the many necessary chores of human existence - like flushing the toilet.

What I've demonstrated is that you can't answer my question. And now you introduce more gobbledegook to cloud the fact that you can't answer - this "sovereign will" nonsense.

Sovereignty is nonsense!?!

The terrorist phenomenon is a direct result of DEFECTIVE sovereignty and you have the temerity to call it nonsense?!?

I submit that what is beyond your ability to comprehend, you conveniently label 'nonsense'.

Answer the question.

More straw man argument.

Just because you can't understand doesn't mean I haven't answered.

Against invincible stupidity, even the gods contend in vain!

Another irrelevant statement. Many people once said the same thing about slavery.

Now you are comparing slavery with paying one's taxes?!

Do you have any control on exactly how absurd you can get?
 
I had a thought the other day (yes, Truth-Bringer, you may insert the "Wow! A thought! What a surprise!" joke here). If you're planning on paying for whatever small, limited government is left after taking apart the welfare programs (and any other programs you think are unnecessary), you're still going to have to collect money somehow. I vaguely remember you saying you'd do it using a tariff (if I'm wrong about that I sincerely apologize for misremembering). But wouldn't high tariffs be self-destructive?

Who ever said they had to be high? I would only support a flat tariff regardless. The HTS is composed of as much unnecessary complexity as the IRS code. Don't forget that mere COMPLIANCE with the IRS code costs $100 billion a year - above and beyond the costs of the taxes themselves.

And, high tariffs or not, this system was once working perfectly fine. There were no internal taxes in the U.S. from 1802 to 1860 minus the brief temporary taxation to fund the war of 1812. WE BECAME THE MOST PROSPEROUS NATION ON EARTH.

You're also failing to recognize that if all our internal taxes were repealed (and our currency issues were resolved), we would instantly become the largest tax haven on the planet. Foreign investment would skyrocket.
 
That's all you're posting. Quit obfuscating and answer my questions.

It is painfully obvious that you are incapable of comprehending socio-political phenomena.

And so, you have only one recourse - leave the natural sanctuary of the political association.

You are incapable of banishing the political association from your vicinity by your own force alone.

You have no primacy over the area within which you exercise your existence.

And even if you did, you still need the sovereign power of a political association from which you seek redress.

Have a nice life.
 
It is painfully obvious that you are incapable of comprehending socio-political phenomena.

It's painfully obvious you are an overeducated moron who likes to wallow in unnecessary complexity for the sake of obfuscating an argument.

The reason you can't answer my question is simple.

If you say "yes" you would kill a 5 year old child if that was the law passed by the majority. Then you're clearly an immoral Nazi.

If you say "no" you would disobey the law, then you're a hypocrite and a fraud if you criticize others for disobey laws involving the use of force to restrict peaceful, honest, voluntary behavior.

Your position is irrational. Now STFU and have a nice day.
 
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It's painfully obvious you are an overeducated moron who likes to wallow in unnecessary complexity for the sake of obfuscating an argument.

The reason you can't answer my question is simple.

If you say "yes" you would kill a 5 year old child if that was the law passed by the majority. Then you're clearly an immoral Nazi.

If you say "no" you would disobey the law, then you're a hypocrite and a fraud if you criticize others for disobey laws involving the use of force to restrict peaceful, honest, voluntary behavior.

Your position is irrational. Now STFU and have a nice day.

It's painfully obvious that when you can't come up with a rational argument, you resort to insult.
 
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