Redistribution of wealth: New figures.

I do understand it, I just don't see it as a problem.


Everyone does benefit from the generation of wealth.

Really? Show me that. . .show me that our adult children today are better off and have more chance to reach the "American Dream" than OUR generation had!
Do you think all those adult kids who delay having a family, or who come back to stay at Mom and Dad's home are doing that because they are lazy? Do you think they ENJOY going home to mom and dad?

Wealth, or income? Or do you really not understand the difference? According to the data you posted, income for the poor has increased by 18% over the last 30 years.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I do know the difference between income and wealth. . .and it is clear that people with higher income will have an easier time to create PERSONAL wealth. It is also clear that WEALTH increases without that "heralded quality" of "hard work,". . .but that, on the contrary, people with great wealth (especially old wealth) are more likely to not even HAVE a work related income. . .they just "exist" in their wealth. . .while it continues to grow, without being taxed!

And YOU think that an 18% increase (in 30 years!) in wealth among the poor is a perfectly fair situation as compared to a 275% increase in wealth among the wealthy?


Those tax cuts removed millions of people at the bottom from the tax roles, completely relieving them of their tax burden. And despite your assertion that they were "tax cuts for the wealthy", the Bush tax cuts actually shifted a larger share of the tax burden onto the wealthy.

This is BS! And if you're as smart as I think you are. . .you know it! And all statistics show it! Once again. . .it is not how much money people pay in taxes. . .it is how much money they have LEFT to live on AFTER the taxes!
And the bottom 60 t0 80% are paying taxes, many taxes! In fact, the further down you go on the ladder, the more you pay tax if you consider the "proportional tax burden vs income!" If one has to spend every penny he makes to merely SURVIVE, one pays tax on EVERY PENNY he/she makes. While those who only need a percentage of what they make to survive, have choices to either spend or not to spend. .. if they don't spend, they don't pay all the sales, states, and other taxes!

BlogsContact Who benefits from the Bush tax cuts?
August 24, 2010 ·
This can’t be said enough. The top 2 percent of income earners benefited overwhelmingly from the Bush tax cuts, which you should remind yourself every day, were WRITTEN BY REPUBLICANS, TO EXPIRE at the end of this year. Now that John Boehner has grabbed a full day’s headlines with a bait and switch call for President Obama to fire his economic team, which was really just a ruse to get oxygen for the resuscitated corpse that is the GOP tax cuts and corporate welfare economic plan, it might be a good time to review “the math,” as Karl Rove might say. The chart below was produced by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. It shows who benefited most from the Bush tax cuts of 2003 and 2004, in terms of the average benefit families in various income groups would receive next year if the tax cuts were to be extended:



As you can see, the Bush tax cuts were a pretty sweet deal for the richest Americans, but not so much for average families. An explanation, from the Joint Committee on Taxation:

•Households with incomes exceeding $1 million will receive an average tax cut of $6,349 in 2011 if the middle-class tax cuts are extended while the high-income tax cuts are allowed to expire. (They will receive an average tax cut of nearly $104,000 if the high-income tax cuts are extended as well.)
•The story is similar, if not quite as dramatic, for households that make between $500,000 and $1 million. They will receive an average tax cut of $6,701 if the middle-class tax cuts are excluded (and of $17,467 if the high-income tax cuts are also extended).
•For all other income categories, by contrast, the size of the tax cuts are about the same whether the high-income tax cuts are extended or not. Even for households with incomes between $200,000 and $500,000, the effects are similar. The Joint Tax Committee figures show that they would receive an average tax cut of $6,743 if only the middle-class tax cuts are extended, and of $7,152 if the high-income tax cuts are extended, as well.
And what about the impact of extending the Bush tax cuts on the deficit? For that, we turn to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office:

The Obama administration and Democratic leaders in Congress are seeking to extend tax cuts for Americans earning less than $250,000 a year, while letting expire some of those for wealthier individuals. Democrats say this would help stimulate the economy and cost the government less than if all cuts were extended.

The CBO’s baseline scenario assumes that the Bush-era tax breaks will expire, as current law provides. In that case, next year’s deficit would fall to $1.07 trillion, or 7 percent of the country’s total economic output, or gross domestic product, according to agency estimates. By 2012, the deficit would shrink to $665 billion, or 4.2 percent of GDP.

Agency analysts also projected that public debt would rise from 53 percent of GDP last year to almost 70 percent of GDP by 2020, a figure unmatched since the 1950s.

“It is an extraordinarily high level of debt by the experience of this country over the past 65 years,” Elmendorf said. “Of course, it is also an extraordinarily difficult economic situation in which we find ourselves.”

Extending the Bush tax cuts would punch a $680 billion hole in the budget deficit, just so the federal government can, as Paul Krugman put it, “cut checks averaging $3 million each to the richest 120,000 people in the country.” And since I’m quoting him, I’ll let Krugman close it out:

How can this kind of giveaway be justified at a time when politicians claim to care about budget deficits? Well, history is repeating itself. The original campaign for the Bush tax cuts relied on deception and dishonesty. In fact, my first suspicions that we were being misled into invading Iraq were based on the resemblance between the campaign for war and the campaign for tax cuts the previous year. And sure enough, that same trademark deception and dishonesty is being deployed on behalf of tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans.

So, for example, we’re told that it’s all about helping small business; but only a tiny fraction of small-business owners would receive any tax break at all. And how many small-business owners do you know making several million a year?

Or we’re told that it’s about helping the economy recover. But it’s hard to think of a less cost-effective way to help the economy than giving money to people who already have plenty, and aren’t likely to spend a windfall.

No, this has nothing to do with sound economic policy. Instead, as I said, it’s about a dysfunctional and corrupt political culture, in which Congress won’t take action to revive the economy, pleads poverty when it comes to protecting the jobs of schoolteachers and firefighters, but declares cost no object when it comes to sparing the already wealthy even the slightest financial inconvenience.


You've never run a business or had to make a payroll.

My parents ran a business and had to make payroll. Althoughy I have not had to do so myself, I KNOW what it means. . .and it's pretty simple. . .IF running a business and make payroll was not "advantageous" to the owner. . . they would just move to another means of making a living!

What is not sustainable? In addition to not understanding the difference between income and wealth, are you also totally ignorant about income mobility?[/QUOTE

The huge inequality in income, the increased powerlessness of people in the bottom 75%, the ridiculous, conspicuous wealth amassed by a smaller and smaller group of elite is not sustainable. If you don't understand that, it's because you don't want to. . . and I have no reason to pursue this conversation.

People who are wealthy can use the money they already have to purchase investments which pay interest and dividends, thereby increasing their income. As I said, nothing nefarious about that.

And there lies the problem. . .why would "dividends" and other goodies on investment be taxed at a lower rate than the hard work of people?

Why isn't there a wealth tax?

Why isn't there an inheritance tax?

Because the elites make the law. . . and only make laws that serve THEIR purpose.
 
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And there lies the problem. . .why would "dividends" and other goodies on investment be taxed at a lower rate than the hard work of people?

this implies that investing is not hard work. just not so. ask Warren Buffett.

Why isn't there a wealth tax?

there is, its called progressive taxation

Why isn't there an inheritance tax?

there is
 
this implies that investing is not hard work. just not so. ask Warren Buffett.

You think that staying home in front of your computer and pushing buttons is "hard work!" Maybe you should try caring for a half dozen of very sick people in intensive care, or laying 500 bricks in one day in the cold of winter. . .or even picking up trash from the side of the road for 8 hours a day!

there is, its called progressive taxation

Progressive taxation is NOT progressive enough to consist in a wealth tax. France has a wealth tax. ..and it works, although the wealth is not as high as here!

there is


Inheritance taxes (death taxes) do not apply to money transferred to spouse of charities. AND it provide a $5 million "tax free" inheritance! Why? I would think that $1 million tax free would be plenty to give a huge advantage to your heirs!
 
Inheritance taxes (death taxes) do not apply to money transferred to spouse of charities. AND it provide a $5 million "tax free" inheritance! Why? I would think that $1 million tax free would be plenty to give a huge advantage to your heirs!


so is there ever enough progression to suit ?

do you have something against charity ?

why is it OK to double tax ?
 
so is there ever enough progression to suit ?

do you have something against charity ?

why is it OK to double tax ?

What do you mean about "progression?"

I have nothing about REAL charity. . .I have a lot against "donations to Churches who are just big businesses" or "charities" who take 85% in "overhead" fees!

Who is talking about doubling taxes?
 
What do you mean about "progression?"

I have nothing about REAL charity. . .I have a lot against "donations to Churches who are just big businesses" or "charities" who take 85% in "overhead" fees!

Who is talking about doubling taxes?

degree of progression in the tax code.

but you want to deny them the ability to benefit from the wishes of the deceased ?

that money was taxed at the time of being earned, estate taxes take it again. ergo double.
 
Take the term "entitlement" and throw it away as it applies to what I said. These are not programs that that cost us, especially in the long run, they actually enhance the nations ability to compete. And anybody who thinks the courts in this nation are fair has never sit through a couple of dockets of criminal court or not been in the system themselves. Law and Order does not even come close to reality...Night Court was closer.
 
Sorry to disappoint you, but I do know the difference between income and wealth. . .
Yet you use the two terms as though they are interchangable, even though they are not.

it is clear that people with higher income will have an easier time to create PERSONAL wealth.
Lets call that Economic Rule #1. It explains why the top 1% have seen their income grow by 275% while the bottom 20% have only seen an income growth of 18%. No mystery there, no evidence of foul play, just basic economic principles at work.

It is also clear that WEALTH increases without that "heralded quality" of "hard work,". . .but that, on the contrary, people with great wealth (especially old wealth) are more likely to not even HAVE a work related income. . .they just "exist" in their wealth. . .while it continues to grow, without being taxed!
It's true that once you reach a certain point, your money can work for you rather than you having to work for your money but that's a level of independence and financial security that everyone should seek to achieve. Additionally, all earnings are taxed, so claiming that the idle rich completely avoid taxation is unsupportable. Even you, in this very post, admitted that spending is also taxed, so the idle rich are simply incapable of avoiding taxation.

And YOU think that an 18% increase (in 30 years!) in wealth among the poor is a perfectly fair situation as compared to a 275% increase in wealth among the wealthy?
Your data stated "income", yet here you are once again using the word "wealth" in it's place... Are you sure you know the difference?

But as to the question, you've already admitted that higher incomes have a higher potentional to generate additional income, and therefore grow personal wealth, faster than lower incomes... Where's the grand conspiracy in that?

This is BS! And if you're as smart as I think you are. . .you know it! And all statistics show it!
A few facts:
The BTC's created a 10% bracket, lowering the tax rate on people at the bottom by 5%. The top rate was cut 4.6% (39.6% to 35%). The people at the bottom had a larger tax rate cut than the people at the top and the doubling of the Child Credit and the EIC further reduced the tax burden on people in the lower brackets.

And the bottom 60 t0 80% are paying taxes, many taxes!
47% of "taxpayers" get back as much, or more, than they paid on income taxes, effectively they pay nothing.

In fact, the further down you go on the ladder, the more you pay tax if you consider the "proportional tax burden vs income!" If one has to spend every penny he makes to merely SURVIVE, one pays tax on EVERY PENNY he/she makes. While those who only need a percentage of what they make to survive, have choices to either spend or not to spend. .. if they don't spend, they don't pay all the sales, states, and other taxes!
If you want to complain about double, and even triple, taxation, I would agree. The 53% of us who actually do pay income taxes, are taxed when we earn the money then again when we spend it - double taxation. Those evil rich bastards are taxed a third time, for the "conspicuous" act of dieing.

My parents ran a business and had to make payroll. Althoughy I have not had to do so myself, I KNOW what it means. . .and it's pretty simple. . .
If you think running a business and making a payroll is "pretty simple" then you have no idea what you're talking about.

IF running a business and make payroll was not "advantageous" to the owner. . . they would just move to another means of making a living!
Which is what many of them are forced to do when people like you have power.

The huge inequality in income, the increased powerlessness of people in the bottom 75%, the ridiculous, conspicuous wealth amassed by a smaller and smaller group of elite is not sustainable.
Income inequality has already been explained by Economic Rule #1. Since that rule doesn't expire, and stays true forever, there is no mystery as to why income inequality continues to grow.

Also, you keep ignoring income mobility, you're treating the top 1% as a static group of people, the "bottom 75%" as a static group of people, when that simply isn't the case. If you take a snapshot of the people in the top 1% today, statistically a full 53% of those people would drop to lower quintiles, nearly 11% of those would fall all the way down to the lowest quintile. It's much harder to reach the top than it is to fall.

And there lies the problem. . .why would "dividends" and other goodies on investment be taxed at a lower rate than the hard work of people?
I agree, if we're going to tax the money someone earns, then we should use a flat tax that applies to all income regardless of source. A 15% flat tax for all people, and all income, would finally make the tax code fair (not to mention much simpler).

Why isn't there a wealth tax?

Why isn't there an inheritance tax?

Because the elites make the law. . . and only make laws that serve THEIR purpose.
The "elites" already tax themselves more than anyone else (top 1% earns 19% of all income but pays 40% of the income tax bill), how does that serve "their" purpose?
 
That is exactly how I see it! People like the Koch brothers believe they are entitled to a disproportionate amount of the wealth of a nation. To prevent others from sharing they pay huge sums to politicians who block the ability of the common working man to negotiate a decent wage. I am glad you agree with me.
 
That is exactly how I see it! People like the Koch brothers believe they are entitled to a disproportionate amount of the wealth of a nation. To prevent others from sharing they pay huge sums to politicians who block the ability of the common working man to negotiate a decent wage. I am glad you agree with me.


well theKoch Bros should be upset because the number of unionized workers has been dropping.
 
dogtowner; said:
but you want to deny them the ability to benefit from the wishes of the deceased ? that money was taxed at the time of being earned, estate taxes take it again. ergo double.


Thomas Paine, whom, as a strong supporter of the Constitution, I assume you respect, would without doubt disagree with you:

Hereditary succession has no claim. For all men being originally equals, no one by birth could have the right to set up his own family in perpetual preference to all others for ever, and tho' himself might deserve some decent degree of honours of his contemporaries, yet his descendants might be far too unworthy to inherit them.
Thomas Paine.
 
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he appears to be capable of completely missing key points of the Constitution.


Well, since HE came BEFORE the Constitution. . .and INSPIRED the Constitution. . .I would say that he was pretty well placed to KNOW about the intent of the Constitution.

By the way. . .so did Thomas Jefferson!

I think you guys who are SO INTENT In following the "Constitution" need to read a little more about the founders, and what their ideology and thought process REALLY was. . .not the "rewriting of history" through "interpretation" that is going on right now!

Where in the constitution does it say that "corporation should be given the status of persons?"
 
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