Obamacare: Eugenics

You want to use force to violate rights, I do not.

Do you have a right to murder another human being who is no threat to your life?

And you think that justifies you violating their rights and turning them into slaves?

I find it interesting that you have decided that life begins at conception, and are willing to force that decision on the rest of society by force of law.

I thought you were a libertarian.

Just because you hold that religious belief doesn't make it proven correct.
 
Werbung:
Well, first off it takes two doctors and not just one to make the decision. Second, if there was actually proof of murder, then the people and the doctor would be charged--Heaven knows there are enough people out there waiting for a chance to prove that the law doesn't work.

Your slippery slope argument is a fantasy just like the endless drug war based on the same slippery slope idea was pointless.


Right Mare, this could never, ever, happen in the US where abortion was originally demanded for the first trimester, and ended up to even the point after birth as long as the cord ain't cut.

Where is your "honest" comment at?

"Over the past two decades, the Netherlands has moved from assisted suicide to euthanasia, from euthanasia for the terminally ill to euthanasia for the chronically ill, from euthanasia for physical illness to euthanasia for psychological distress and from voluntary euthanasia to nonvoluntary and involuntary euthanasia. Once the Dutch accepted assisted suicide it was not possible legally or morally to deny more active medical (assistance to die), i.e. euthanasia, to those who could not effect their own deaths. Nor could they deny assisted suicide or euthanasia to the chronically ill who have longer to suffer than the terminally ill or to those who have psychological pain not associated with physical disease. To do so would be a form of discrimination. Involuntary euthanasia has been justified as necessitated by the need to make decisions for patients not competent to choose for themselves."[7] In other words, for a substantial number of people in the Netherlands, doctors have decided patients should die without consultation with the patients."


However, just to prove you lack that ability, the one demanding an honest, and objective, reaction, you missed this part of the report which shows any rational person why no one is convicted. BTW, where does it say that two doctors are required?

"There is one safeguard in this bill - for HMO's and doctors: the "good faith" standard. This "safeguard" provides that no person will be subject to any form of legal liability if they claim that they acted in "good faith." A claimed "good faith" belief that the requirements of the law are satisfied is virtually impossible to disprove, rendering all other proposed "safeguards" effectively unenforceable."
 
A woman doesn't want to have a baby, then it's not eugenics for her to have it aborted, it's personal decision about her own body. For you to say that you know why a woman does it is disingenuous because there is no way for you to know what goes on in her mind in making the decision.

The only way it could be eugenics is if other people are in on the decision and it's made for the reasons I posted in the definition of eugenics.



The whole of the program is not based on a decision made by one woman. Margret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, and proponent of abortion, described it as eugenics especially for the elimination of minority races.

Now tell me, the major justifications for a woman to have an abortion are economic reasons, fewer unwanted children, fewer abused children, fewer birth defects, and the inconvenience to the woman. The end result claimed by the proponents of abortion is allegedly happier, and healthier, children. If that is not eugenics what is it?
 
The whole of the program is not based on a decision made by one woman. Margret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, and proponent of abortion, described it as eugenics especially for the elimination of minority races.

Now tell me, the major justifications for a woman to have an abortion are economic reasons, fewer unwanted children, fewer abused children, fewer birth defects, and the inconvenience to the woman. The end result claimed by the proponents of abortion is allegedly happier, and healthier, children. If that is not eugenics what is it?

What indeed? Perhaps it is freedom of choice, freedom to make choices that you and I might think are poor choices.

Do you want to impose your morality on the rest of society by force of law?
 
You don't really expect them to do research for information that would discredit their deepest held beliefs, do you? That would be too rational.

http://disweb.org/cda/issues/pas/golden3.html

•OTHER SUPPOSED SAFEGUARDS. In Oregon's law and this bill, doctors are not supposed to write a lethal prescription under inappropriate conditions which are defined in the law. This is seen as a supposed safeguard. But what's happened in several cases in Oregon is "doctor shopping" - if one physician refuses assisted suicide because the patient doesn't meet the conditions in the law, another physician is sought who will approve it, often one who's an assisted suicide advocate. Such was the case of Kate Cheney, age 85, whose case was described in The Oregonian in October 1999. Her doctor refused to prescribe the lethal medication, because he thought the request was actually the result of pressure by an assertive daughter who was stuck with caregiving, rather than the free choice of the mother. So the family found another doctor, and Ms. Cheney is now dead.

There is one safeguard in this bill - for HMO's and doctors: the "good faith" standard. This "safeguard" provides that no person will be subject to any form of legal liability if they claim that they acted in "good faith." A claimed "good faith" belief that the requirements of the law are satisfied is virtually impossible to disprove, rendering all other proposed "safeguards" effectively unenforceable.


•THIS SO-CALLED NARROW PROPOSAL WILL INEVITABLY EXPAND. As the New York State Task Force on Life and the Law wrote, "Once society authorizes assisted suicide for...terminally ill patients experiencing unrelievable suffering, it will be difficult if not impossible to contain the option to such a limited group. Individuals who are not (able to make the choice for themselves), who are not terminally ill, or who cannot self-administer lethal drugs will also seek the option of assisted suicide, and no principled basis will exist to deny (it)."[5]

The longest experience we have with assisted suicide is in the Netherlands, where not only assisted suicide but also active euthanasia is practiced. The Netherlands is a very frightening laboratory experiment where, because of assisted suicide and euthanasia, "Pressure for improved palliative care appears to have evaporated."[6] Assisted suicide and euthanasia have become, not just the exception, but the rule for people with terminal illness.

"Over the past two decades, the Netherlands has moved from assisted suicide to euthanasia, from euthanasia for the terminally ill to euthanasia for the chronically ill, from euthanasia for physical illness to euthanasia for psychological distress and from voluntary euthanasia to nonvoluntary and involuntary euthanasia. Once the Dutch accepted assisted suicide it was not possible legally or morally to deny more active medical (assistance to die), i.e. euthanasia, to those who could not effect their own deaths. Nor could they deny assisted suicide or euthanasia to the chronically ill who have longer to suffer than the terminally ill or to those who have psychological pain not associated with physical disease. To do so would be a form of discrimination. Involuntary euthanasia has been justified as necessitated by the need to make decisions for patients not competent to choose for themselves."[7] In other words, for a substantial number of people in the Netherlands, doctors have decided patients should die without consultation with the patients.

Furthermore, assisted suicide proponents and medical personnel alike have documented how taking lethal drugs by mouth is often ineffective in fulfilling its intended purpose. The body expels the drugs through vomiting, or the person falls into a lengthy state of unconsciousness rather than dying promptly, as so-called "death with dignity" advocates wish. Such ineffective suicide attempts can happen in a substantial percentage of cases -- estimates range from 15% to 25%. The way to prevent these "problems," in the view of euthanasia advocates, is by legalizing lethal injections by doctors, which is active euthanasia. This is an inevitable next step if society first accepts assisted suicide as a legitimate legal option.

Thanks for the link :)

I agree the pills are ineffective in many cases, and it’s painful. You are home and alone and if things go wrong there is no doctor assisting you. Like most things invented by the democrats the name of this is misleading
 
It's a legal medical procedure, it should be covered. You have no proof that ANYONE has been coerced into dying ahead of their time and the law is specifically drawn to prevent that very thing from happening. I just can't see why everyone's right to choose to die should be restricted because somebody some day may get around the law.

In Eugene transpeople were denied use of bathrooms appropriate to their gender presentation because some people thought that men would dress as women and go into women's bathrooms with evil intent. According to the FBI such a case has NEVER happened in the US, but the fear that somebody some day might try it has denied some people the right to use public restrooms. It's all fear.

Abortion is a legal medical procedure too but I sure do not want to be paying for someone’s abortion.

No one will ever know how many were coerced into dying, they are dead and are not talking and the ones who would have done it are not going to be talking. The new doctor assisted suicide has "some" fail safes so it’s much better than the first very flawed doctor assisted suicide.

I remember that Tran gendered bathroom thing. It was kids they were worried about being molested in bathrooms. Are you saying no kid has ever been molested in a public bathroom? Hell, I was reading just a few months ago about it happening in a pubic library. Or are you saying transgender people do not molest in public bathrooms?

Personally I would not care, I have seen men dressed like women using the women’s bathrooms and it did not bother me. We all have our own stalls and doors so it private, but I would not shower or dress in an open dressing room with a male who is dressed like a woman.

We have a man who dresses like a woman at work but he doesn’t think he is a woman trapped in a man’s body, he is married to a woman and just likes dressing like a woman. The mayor of Ashland same thing, he doesn’t think he is a woman and I do not think he his homosexual he just likes dressing like a girl. I don’t think that’s a good reason to be able to use a woman’s bathroom but again as long as I have stall with a door on it I don’t care.
 
I find it interesting that you have decided that life begins at conception, and are willing to force that decision on the rest of society by force of law.

I thought you were a libertarian.

Just because you hold that religious belief doesn't make it proven correct.


You need to get some new material, and quit parroting the pro-abortion talking points. Even some of the strongest proponents of abortion agree that life begins at conception.

BTW, why cannot creation science be taught in the schools? Is it not because people like you wanted to force their beliefs on others, and thus passed a law? The same with the teaching about homoseuxality, and numerous other subjects. Have you ever heard of a sex education class in public education teach that life begins at conception? Why is that when science says it does?

The Case Against Abortion: Medical TestimonyDec 8, 2009 ... "Science has a very simple conception of man; as soon as he has been ... correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception. ...
http://www.abort73.com/abortion/medical_testimony

When does science say Human Life begins?But I'm talking about when science says a human life begins. And there is no question science tells us it begins at conception (fertilization). ...
http://www.fallibleblogma.com/.../when-does-science-say-human-life-begins/

A human being, from the point of conception « University of ...Jul 24, 2009 ... If the claim is true then of life begins at conception then there ... To say that science doesn't know conclusively when life begins puts ...
http://www.utsfl.wordpress.com/.../a-human-being-from-the-point-of-conception/

When Does Life Begin? Dr. Fritz Baumgartner explainsApr 12, 2005 ... (A Doctor Gives the Scientific Facts on When Life Begins) .... Why on earth would the ACOG change its definition of conception from .... To deny this, Kischer says, is "a trivialization and corruption of the science of ...
http://www.prolife.com/life_begins.html

When Life Begins - Robert P. George - National Review OnlineNov 2, 2008 ... When Life Begins Will politics trump science? .... Biden is perfectly correct about when a life begins — at conception. ...
http://www.article.nationalreview.com/?q...

Science, religion agree life begins at conception - Topix20 posts - 9 authors - Last post: Aug 29, 2008
"It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive. .... science proves that life begins at conception and biologically there ...
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T06JP0KDAV4KQBG1P

Does the Bible teach that life begins at conception?Science tells us that human life begins at the time of conception. ... What does the Bible say about how to find purpose in life? ...
http://www.gotquestions.org/life-begin-conception.html
 
So, what's your point? That your morals should be used to decide whether a legal medical procedure is covered by insurance? Or am I misunderstanding you?

My point is that no one should be forced to pay to end a persons life. It makes them a part of it.

I dont want to have to pay for someone being killed on death row
I dont want to have to pay for someone being killed with doctor assisted suicide
and I do not want to pay for women to kill their children

I dont think you should have to pay for it either but I think you have the right to donate money to any of those causes if you think its a good idea
 
So medical care is not a right, neither is education, nor is adequate food, nor shelter... but we can deny a woman the right to an abortion. I don't know, your whole position seems backwards to me somehow. I don't think you are uneducated because I have seen many good posts written by you, but this slavish devotion to social Darwinism puzzles me no end.

A healthy, educated, secure population is a huge asset to a country--don't you think? So why is it wrong to try to make our society work in such a fashion as to provide those things? We've seen what happens when we ignore children and allow them to grow up with no care--we don't value them and consequently they don't value themselves.

It seems insane to me to force women to have children they don't want and then expect them to do a good job of raising those children. If the society at large doesn't value the children enough to see that they are properly cared for, then we should not force women to bear them in the first place.

No, medical care is not a right.

Please explain to me what you consider adequate food and shelter?

Do you think our government owes 3 square meals a day? What kind of food? I like T bone steak personally. Does the government owe me T bone steak each night? What kind of shelter does the government owe me? A house? An apartment? If adequate food is a right then it’s my government’s responsibility to give it to me, same goes for a house, college education and I could go on.

If we the people are the government, at least funding the government… how is it better for me to have my money go to the government so they can feed me adequately? Why give the government my money so they can get me a doctor. Why not let me keep my own money so I can feed myself, and go to the doctor if I need one and get the house I want?



I totally agree with you that a healthy, educated, secure population is a huge asset to a country. But the government can not make me healthy or educated or secure.



The government owes me this.... The right to Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And they dang well better deliver. The rest is up to me. If I can get the weight of the government off my back I can do the rest, and you can too!
 
It seems insane to me to force women to have children they don't want and then expect them to do a good job of raising those children. If the society at large doesn't value the children enough to see that they are properly cared for, then we should not force women to bear them in the first place.

I know of no one who would want a woman to raise a child that she does not want. That is what adoption is for.

Do you realize people are adopting kids by the tens of thousands in Korea and other countries because they can not get baby here?

There were tons of children needing to be adopted in the Russia and Germany and when people in the states found out they adopted them all in a very short period of time.

No woman who does not want her child should have to keep the child. There are hundreds of thousands of people like me who would be more than happy to adopt the baby and pay for the medical bills the woman racked up by not ending the pregnancy.
 
You need to get some new material, and quit parroting the pro-abortion talking points. Even some of the strongest proponents of abortion agree that life begins at conception.

I'm not arguing in favor of abortion. I'm arguing for choices made by the individual, not the government. Even if you and I think that the choice is wrong, it is not our choice, nor that of the government.

There are very few actual proponents of abortion, and I doubt any of them would say that life begins at conception. There are quite a few people who believe that the choice should be made by the individual, not the government.

BTW, why cannot creation science be taught in the schools? Is it not because people like you wanted to force their beliefs on others, and thus passed a law? The same with the teaching about homoseuxality, and numerous other subjects. Have you ever heard of a sex education class in public education teach that life begins at conception? Why is that when science says it does?

This, of course, has nothing to do with abortion, and furthermore, there aren't any people like me. I am unique.

The reason why creation science can't be taught is that creationism is not science. There is no such thing as "creation science." Th3e question of the existence of a creator belongs in religion or philosophy class.

The Case Against Abortion: Medical TestimonyDec 8, 2009 ... "Science has a very simple conception of man; as soon as he has been ... correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception. ...
http://www.abort73.com/abortion/medical_testimony

When does science say Human Life begins?But I'm talking about when science says a human life begins. And there is no question science tells us it begins at conception (fertilization). ...
http://www.fallibleblogma.com/.../when-does-science-say-human-life-begins/

A human being, from the point of conception « University of ...Jul 24, 2009 ... If the claim is true then of life begins at conception then there ... To say that science doesn't know conclusively when life begins puts ...
http://www.utsfl.wordpress.com/.../a-human-being-from-the-point-of-conception/

When Does Life Begin? Dr. Fritz Baumgartner explainsApr 12, 2005 ... (A Doctor Gives the Scientific Facts on When Life Begins) .... Why on earth would the ACOG change its definition of conception from .... To deny this, Kischer says, is "a trivialization and corruption of the science of ...
http://www.prolife.com/life_begins.html

When Life Begins - Robert P. George - National Review OnlineNov 2, 2008 ... When Life Begins Will politics trump science? .... Biden is perfectly correct about when a life begins — at conception. ...
http://www.article.nationalreview.com/?q...

Science, religion agree life begins at conception - Topix20 posts - 9 authors - Last post: Aug 29, 2008
"It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive. .... science proves that life begins at conception and biologically there ...
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/abortion/T06JP0KDAV4KQBG1P

Does the Bible teach that life begins at conception?Science tells us that human life begins at the time of conception. ... What does the Bible say about how to find purpose in life? ...
http://www.gotquestions.org/life-begin-conception.html


What an interesting set of testimonials from anti choice groups, along with a non sequiter about the Bible. Not much science there. Your first link does not work, BTW.

Here is a site dedicated to science

It says:

Current perspectives on when human life begins range from fertilization to gastrulation to birth and even after. Here is a brief examination of each of the major perspectives with arguments for and against each of the positions. Contemporary scientific literature proposes a variety of answers to the question of when human life begins.

Several hypotheses follow, including this:

Although most cultures identify the qualities of humanity as different from other living organisms, there is also a universal view that all forms of life on earth are finite. Implicit in the later view is the reality that all life has both a beginning and an end, usually identified as some form of death. The debate surrounding the exact moment marking the beginning of a human life contrasts the certainty and consistency with which the instant of death is described. Contemporary American (and Japanese) society defines death as the loss of the pattern produced by a cerebral electroencephalogram (EEG). If life and death are based upon the same standard of measurement, then the beginning of human life should be recognized as the time when a fetus acquires a recognizable EEG pattern. This acquisition occurs approximately 24- 27 weeks after the conception of the fetus and is the basis for the neurological view of the beginning of human life.

That seems reasonable. If we can define when death occurs, then it follows that the beginning of life can be similarly described.

But I don't know, and neither do you.
 
There are very few actual proponents of abortion, and I doubt any of them would say that life begins at conception. There are quite a few people who believe that the choice should be made by the individual, not the government.


Anyone who supports abortion is a proponent of the practice whether they want to admit it or not.



This, of course, has nothing to do with abortion, and furthermore, there aren't any people like me. I am unique.


So is the unborn.


The reason why creation science can't be taught is that creationism is not science. There is no such thing as "creation science." Th3e question of the existence of a creator belongs in religion or philosophy class.


Evolution is not science, yet it is taught.



That seems reasonable. If we can define when death occurs, then it follows that the beginning of life can be similarly described.

But I don't know, and neither do you.


That is the difference between me, and you. I do know.

Now, science seems to think it knows when life begins in regard to endangered species since it passed a law to prevent the destruction of the unborn there. Yet it does not know when the life of a human begins?

Once the egg is fertilized, and the cells begin their division, life has begun.
 
What indeed? Perhaps it is freedom of choice, freedom to make choices that you and I might think are poor choices.

Do you want to impose your morality on the rest of society by force of law?

I know it makes no difference to you, however, the woman entered into a sexual activity knowing full well that she might conceived. That was her freedom of choice moment.
 
I find it interesting that you have decided that life begins at conception, and are willing to force that decision on the rest of society by force of law.

I thought you were a libertarian.
You think it's acceptable to force one individual to pay for the health care of another...

Is that libertarian?

We have laws against murder, one individual cannot legally kill another individual who is no threat to their life.

What specific morality is that law forcing on society?

Just because you hold that religious belief doesn't make it proven correct.
What religious beliefs? I'm non-religious...

My conclusion is based on scientific facts, not feelings or beliefs. It is science, not religion, that proves the conclusion correct.

From the point of conception forward, the unborn child is alive, is an individual, is a human being.

Are you able to scientifically refute any of that statement?

Individual rights are not for just one group of individuals, like the rich but not the poor, the born but not the unborn, the white but not the black, individual rights equally apply to all living, individual, human beings.
 
Werbung:
You think it's acceptable to force one individual to pay for the health care of another...

Is that libertarian?

I think we are already forcing society to pay for the health care of individuals. I just think we should do it in a more efficient manner, one that would save money for all of us and free us from having to work for an employer that provides health care.

We have laws against murder, one individual cannot legally kill another individual who is no threat to their life.

What specific morality is that law forcing on society?


What religious beliefs? I'm non-religious...

My conclusion is based on scientific facts, not feelings or beliefs. It is science, not religion, that proves the conclusion correct.

From the point of conception forward, the unborn child is alive, is an individual, is a human being.

That is only one possible scientific viewpoint among many.

Are you able to scientifically refute any of that statement?

I have already refuted the assertion that it has been proven. See my response to Old Trapper above.

Life might begin at conception. If you accept the premise that a unique DNA makes a human being, then it does begin at conception. If you believe that life begins when the heart starts to beat, or when the brain starts to function, when self awareness begins, or when the soul enters the body, then it does not start with conception. The point is, none of the above is proven nor provable with current technology. Drawing your own conclusion is one thing, but forcing that conclusion on the rest of society is authoritarianism in its worst form.

Your opinion that life begins at conception is at least consistent with your avowed non religious view, as the religious viewpoint would be that life begins when the soul enters the body. What puzzles me is that it seems to be the religious among us who assert that life must begin at conception.
 
Back
Top