Obamacare: Eugenics

[GenSeneca]

Why is GenSeca posting this?

Because my tax money already goes to pay for plenty of immoral, unethical and unjust expenses - in violation of my rights - but being forced to pay for abortions and offing grandma goes way beyond simple immorality.

Isn't he the one who is so big on personal rights?

Yes, I am big on individual rights... You're the one that doesn't think our rights should be respected or protected.

Where is my personal right, anybody's personal right to end their own life?

Feel free... But you do NOT have the right to send me the bill.

 

[Alana]

BO refuses to listen to the will of the people. He is going to do his best to force socialist HC down our throats.

If only Americans knew the words of our Founders...This one is appropriate.

The will of most of the people is for health care reform and Obama's plan looks pretty good. America has always operated on a blend of socialism and capitalism which is not a bad thing. Public schools, libraries, parks and bridges could be considered socialistic but are not bad things. And many labor unions were modeled on the best of socialistic principles and are not bad things. All organizations can have a bad individual in them, but it doesn't mean the concept is bad.

 

[GenSeneca]

America has always operated on a blend of socialism and capitalism

America has always been a Fascist nation?

 

[GenSeneca]

The will of most of the people is for health care reform

If we had a poll here on the HOP, close to 100% of people would vote in favor of the vague term "Reform" where health care is concerned. What you either don't understand, or intentionally misconstrue, is the fact that Reform means different things to different people. Some people want reforms that increase the role of the private sector and limit the public sector. Others want the exact opposite.

You point to a majority of people who support an undefined word like "reform" as proof that a majority of Americans want to subsidize the killing of unborn children and the elderly... Such claims are not substantiated by reality.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

First off, yes there has been problems with the "death with dignity" It had to be revised due to people doctor shopping for mom and grandma. The new version I dont know as much about and have not heard any real complaints. But the first death with dignity had a large number of complaints of children and grandchildren doctor shopping for their elderly.

I have no problem if you are interested in taking a gun to your head or if any other person does, except the part where we tax payers have to pay for it. But I do have a problem with doctor shopping for the elderly.

I think what gen is posting has nothing to do with your personal freedom to slice your wrist, its about the government IE tax payers being forced to pay for your razor blades.

I don't mean to doubt your word, Pan, but have you got a link to anyone being prosecuted or even arrested and being accused of soliciting for murder under the Death With Dignity law? Being involved with not only the State but also with the medical community I have not seen anything like that come across my desk.

Legal medical procedures should be disallowed funding on the basis of one group's moral objections. This is not a theocracy.

Without some very real proof I have to assume that your accusation of eugenics is political hype. And, yes, GenSeca is against people voting things into law to protect them from the wealthy and powerful, he wishes the people to lay down and pretend that they don't care about being run over by the people in power.

 

[GenSeneca]

And, yes, GenSeca is against people voting things into law to protect them from the wealthy and powerful, he wishes the people to lay down and pretend that they don't care about being run over by the people in power.

As usual, you're 180 degrees off but you like to keep spouting this same lie. Unlike you, I want individual rights to be respected and protected, that is why I have argued for ending governments ability to grant any individual or group the ability to legally violate the rights of any individual.

As for the Eugenics... Abortion is a key component to the Eugenics movement.

 

[Pandora]

I don't mean to doubt your word, Pan, but have you got a link to anyone being prosecuted or even arrested and being accused of soliciting for murder under the Death With Dignity law? Being involved with not only the State but also with the medical community I have not seen anything like that come across my desk.

Legal medical procedures should be disallowed funding on the basis of one group's moral objections. This is not a theocracy.

Without some very real proof I have to assume that your accusation of eugenics is political hype. And, yes, GenSeca is against people voting things into law to protect them from the wealthy and powerful, he wishes the people to lay down and pretend that they don't care about being run over by the people in power.

No one was prosecuted or even arrested. It was not against the law to look for a doctor to off grandma. What was happening was not expected but also not illegal. The new death with dignity has some reforms in it and that is a good thing. But what was being done under the first death with dignity was never intended.

I pay attention to this sort of stuff and so far I have heard nothing with the new death with dignity being anything but on the up and up. So hopefully it will stay that way.

I am sure if you did some research you would be able to find some stories on it. I mostly got my information on the first one via the local radio news and KEZI KMTR exc. But I am sure there is stuff out there on the net about it too.

It would be under two different attorney generals. First Janet Reno who started an investigation on it then after Clinton left John Ashcroft finished the investigation.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

No one was prosecuted or even arrested. It was not against the law to look for a doctor to off grandma. What was happening was not expected but also not illegal. The new death with dignity has some reforms in it and that is a good thing. But what was being done under the first death with dignity was never intended.

I pay attention to this sort of stuff and so far I have heard nothing with the new death with dignity being anything but on the up and up. So hopefully it will stay that way.

I am sure if you did some research you would be able to find some stories on it. I mostly got my information on the first one via the local radio news and KEZI KMTR exc. But I am sure there is stuff out there on the net about it too.

It would be under two different attorney generals. First Janet Reno who started an investigation on it then after Clinton left John Ashcroft finished the investigation.

It would not be an issue at the Federal level since it is just a State law. And you admit that no one was able to use the law for evil ends, right. Should we outlaw banks because some people try to rob them? Denying people control over their own deaths because someone will try (and so far fail completely) to use the law for evil doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

As usual, you're 180 degrees off but you like to keep spouting this same lie. Unlike you, I want individual rights to be respected and protected, that is why I have argued for ending governments ability to grant any individual or group the ability to legally violate the rights of any individual.

As for the Eugenics... Abortion is a key component to the Eugenics movement.

Didn't you say that we had a level playing field? I say we do not, and trying to implement your plan--which has no record of success--before the playing field has been levelled is not justice. You so far have shown no compassion for individual rights except as they apply to rich people. I'm sorry but you just don't convince me.

Is it eugenics to allow women to decide what they will do with their own bodies--I don't think so. Merriam Webster doesn't think so either:
1 : a science that deals with the improvement of hereditary qualities in a series of generations of a race or breed especially by social control of human mating and reproduction -- compare EUTHENICS, GENETICS
2 : the process or means of race improvement (as by restricting mating to superior types suited to each other)

Now if abortions were being demanded for the improvement of the race, then you'd have a point, but they aren't. Women deserve to control their own bodies even if I disagree with their choices. You on the other hand appear to desire that YOUR morals be required of others--so much for your vaunted interest in individual rights.

 

[Pandora]

It would not be an issue at the Federal level since it is just a State law. And you admit that no one was able to use the law for evil ends, right. Should we outlaw banks because some people try to rob them? Denying people control over their own deaths because someone will try (and so far fail completely) to use the law for evil doesn't make sense to me.

How many times do I have to say it for you to understand. I am perfectly ok with people killing themselves. I have no issue even with the doctor assisted suicide except if kids are trying to get grandma to do the program so all the money is not sucked into bills. If grandma herself wants to do it then I am all for grandma doing it. If you or anyone wants to do it then go for it.

I draw the line at you making me pay for your killing your self
and people coarsing someone into dying

when its just you killing your own self its all good, notice where I start caring is when you drag me into it or another inocent person.

Id use the bold and caps If I thought it would help you understand.

 

[rationalist]

As assisted suicide is the alleviation of pain why shouldn't society pay for it like any other medical help?

Healthcare should not be a commodity that is only available in accordance with one's ability to pay.

In a modern society it is a right like education is.

 

[Pandora]

And you admit that no one was able to use the law for evil ends, right.

No I do not admit this, and I never said this. I said no one was arrested or prosecuted, I never said no one got away with offing grandma for the $$.

There were a few cases where it was not clear the older person wanted to die. When asked if they were ready to die their answer was stuff like, well if I don't my kids wont get any money, it will all go to medical bills.. So I guess I am ready. A few doctors reported feeling unsure if some patience were ready to end their lives in a few cases and I am sure some of those cases the pills were taken. But again it was unintended consequences that were fixed in the second bill.

 

[Pandora]

As assisted suicide is the alleviation of pain why shouldn't society pay for it like any other medical help?

Healthcare should not be a commodity that is only available in accordance with one's ability to pay.

In a modern society it is a right like education is.

A bottle of pills to take home and eat so you can die is not health care, its death care. And I want no part of it. I am happy for you if you want to blow your brains out but don’t ask to borrow my gun or make me pay for your bullets and I also do not want to clean up the mess.

Education is not a right neither is you forcing me to pay for your death

 

[Hobo1]

As assisted suicide is the alleviation of pain why shouldn't society pay for it like any other medical help?

Healthcare should not be a commodity that is only available in accordance with one's ability to pay.

In a modern society it is a right like education is.

This whole thread is a great example of why taxpayer money and decisions should NOT be a part of any health care program. When the government gets deeply into any program, they start making rules and removing liberties.

The government has a program called Health Savings Account, which is like fully tax deductible. Along with this you can buy a very good supplemental insurance policy with a $5000 deductible. The cost is $54.74 per month. So the first $5000 comes out of your tax-free Health Savings Account. Then, if you really get sick, your supplemental insurance policy kicks in to pay for the really expensive stuff.

Now if this is not cheap enough for some very poor people, then we could come up with a program where private companies will give somebody a government guaranteed loan for $5000. This would be just like the student loan program. For an extra $60 -$80 per month you could pay off this loan in 5 to 10 years. PLUS, you would have $5000 ready to pay your medical bills.

On top of this we could pass laws that don't cost money, such as allowing interstate competition, and limiting medial malpractice award settlements (ie, tort reform). This list of legislative reforms for both health care insurance systems and health delivery systems (ie, hospitals, drugs, etc.) is long, AND they don't cost the taxpayer a dime. Nor do they take away any freedoms from people who need medical care.

Our health care system does need a major tune up... no question. But, it is a terrible idea to get both the government and tax dollars into the equation. Then we loose our options and our freedoms.

 

[GenSeneca]

Didn't you say that we had a level playing field?

Nope, I never said we had a level playing field.

trying to implement your plan--which has no record of success--before the playing field has been levelled is not justice.

Your plan of violating individual rights does have a record, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Che, Castro... Every mass murdering government in history has followed your plan to it's ultimate conclusion.

You so far have shown no compassion for individual rights except as they apply to rich people.

I know, you don't think the rich have any rights, that they should all be killed or pushed out of the country so you can redistribute their wealth. Very Progressive of you.

Is it eugenics to allow women to decide what they will do with their own bodies--I don't think so.

When you let people decide who should die, and who gets to live, that is not personal choice.

Now if abortions were being demanded for the improvement of the race, then you'd have a point, but they aren't.

"We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population..." - Margaret Sanger founder of Planned Parenthood

Planned Parenthood's legacy of racism and eugenics is firmly established through its founder Margaret Sanger

Women deserve to control their own bodies even if I disagree with their choices. You on the other hand appear to desire that YOUR morals be required of others--so much for your vaunted interest in individual rights.

You don't have a right to kill another human being that is no threat to your life, it is a violation of their right to life.