1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Discuss politics - join our community by registering for free here! HOP - the political discussion forum

Obama is a...

Discussion in 'Polls' started by PoliticsFan, Apr 22, 2007.

?

Obama is a...

  1. Communist

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Socialist

    13 vote(s)
    24.5%
  3. Fresh Start

    19 vote(s)
    35.8%
  4. Both A and B

    13 vote(s)
    24.5%
  5. Other

    8 vote(s)
    15.1%
  1. ArmChair General

    ArmChair General New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2007
    Messages:
    687
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    www.spamwebsite.com
    the magic negro
     
  2. Walter

    Walter Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,476
    Likes Received:
    135
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Heart of Europe
    Please refrain from spamming and try to stay on topic please.

    House of Politics will enforce its rules more strictly.
     
  3. FRYandBENDER

    FRYandBENDER New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well I'm not advocating that we shouldn't have any social programs. Certainly there are those who genuinely need help, either permanent due to illness or injury, or temporary due to a lay off or stint in the hospitol. That being said, I don't see why someone that studied hard, invested wisely, and worked their ass off should be responsible for the living conditions of someone that has birthed 3 babies out of wedlock before the age of 20, or waste their money on superfluous items like big screen tv's or 20" rims instead of saving/ investing, or has an addiction to drugs, or ...... the list goes on. When you are taking money from people that work hard and spend/save wisely and giving it to people tht are not responsible you are punishing that hard work and diminishing the incentive to succeed and keep our economy going.
     
  4. Income taxes are ILLEGAL
     
  5. Sgt Schultz

    Sgt Schultz New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    The suburbs of St. Louis
    While I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying I have to ask what do we do to stop these things from happening? Unless we abandon the very freedoms and principles that make our country what it is I don't see how you can stop it. It's part of the price we pay for having freedoms and rights.
     
  6. FRYandBENDER

    FRYandBENDER New Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I honestly don't know what we should do. My answer for most everything is personal responsibility, but with the way things are going I don't see people becoming more responsible. I definately wouldn't give up rights to "ensure" that people started acting more responsibly. I guess it is a catch 22. I definately wouldn't trade capitolism for anything else, but to me it seems to have had a detrimental effect on some of our values, like personal responsibility. When I see irresponsible lifestyles being marketed to people it upsets me quite a bit. It is not like the old days where we simply marketed and sold goods and services. I think that marketing has gone from "defining a target audience and addressing their needs and how -insert company- can fullfill them" to "creating a target audience and giving them a need that -insert company- can fullfill" at least to a certain extent. I've never really verbalized my thought process on this so bear with me. Take MTV. When I watch MTV I see shows that glorify sexual permiscuity ( highschool pregnancies), absurd materialism (bling, rims, etc.), vapid personalities and so on. These show are marketed towards people my own age, 25, but also towards teenagers. Since the marketing of these ideals has become so widespread I believe that children, and adults sadly, become enthralled with notions that sex is consequence free, it is wiser to waste money on "the new cell phone (even though you just bought one 6 months ago) or this brand of "whatever" than to save and invest. I think that the ideas of "keeping up with the Jones'" and "gotta do this to be cool" have subverted much more important principles like not starting a family until your financially capable and focusing your efforts as a parent towards making sure your child is prepared for the world instead of making sure that your daughter is dressed as slutty as the other girls so she will be popular. The reason we have these cultures in our society is because someone is making money on them. That is what I don't get about the whole "evil rich" argument. They are making money because we are buying their stupid ****. We perpetuate the existence of these lifestyles and ideals because we buy clothes that dress our children up like hookers, we buy music that objectifies women and glorifies violence/drug use, and we pay for, via the commercials we view, TV shows that do the same. I guess it comes back to personal responsibility. If we could pull our heads out of our asses and start supporting decent values again, maybe there wouldn't be as much nonsensical drivel to take our minds off of working hard, being proud that we work hard, education, and being responsible.

    Sorry for the rant.
     
  7. USMC the Almighty

    USMC the Almighty New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2007
    Messages:
    2,070
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    0
    How'd you arrive at this conclusion? Ever heard of the 16th Amendment?
     
  8. Sgt Schultz

    Sgt Schultz New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    The suburbs of St. Louis
    Don't be sorry for your rant, and as I said I don't necessarily disagree with you. I totally agree with the idea of personal responsibility needing to be stressed. But capitalism and freedom comes with a price i.e. to have the good you have to put up with the bad. Even putting up with the bad is better than the alternative in my opinion.
     
  9. top gun

    top gun New Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    4,940
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    Well that's not an unreasonable position Fry... and by the way good to see you over here!:)

    There is no doubt that all levels there are those who take advantage of our system. Whether it be exploiting welfare programs, frauding workers comp, or just plain cheating on your taxes it's all wrong.

    I just think the big screen TV's or the big chrome rims tend to stand out a little more than someone who tries to write off a Porsche as an office expense because it has a phone in it... but I do get your point.

    I will say this though because I've been there. Thirty years ago I was so poor that I couldn't even afford a car. I lived in an apartment complex that was so treacherous that the street I lived on was nicknamed Uzi Alley. I remember having to wait in the winter until the cars made ruts in the snow so I could drive my girlfriend on the back of my bike to the grocery store for food.

    Back then I heard some of the same complaints you've made but they were more like... How can he afford that nice Harley? Do you know how much those things cost... I can't afford one and I've got a good job... it's just not right.

    The truth of the matter is that's all I had. I lived in the ghetto. Didn't have the good job, the savings, or the credit to get out at that time. But I still wanted something special, something nice, something that I could say was just as good or better than anything anyone else had. For me that was my bike.

    Now I'm 50 and pretty darn successful in property management. Own a nice home that's almost completely paid off, a decent amount of money in the bank and a brand new SUV in the garage that I bought "cash".

    But I never forgot the feeling that Harley gave me when I lived on Uzi alley and only owned a few pieces of old broken down furniture, 3 shirts, 3 pair of jeans, a pair of boots and a old biker jacket. It didn't make be rich having that nice Harley... but it helped my self-esteem and to this day I still am glad that I had that bike at that time in my life.

    Just food for thought... :)
     
  10. Cheshire Cat

    Cheshire Cat New Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2007
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Wonderland
    People can't afford to help their neighbors and their community anymore, because of taxes. Your example above is an example of a flat tax, in your scenario both incomes are paying 10%, that however is not the reality in existence today. I am middle income, and I pay 50% of my income to the government in one manner or another. Here is a partial list. Federal income tax, social security, medicare, state income tax, sales tax on virtually everything I purchase, property tax on my house, property tax on my vehicles, registration tax(fees) for my vehicles, mandatory annual inspections for my vehicles, I smoke and tobacco is taxed heavily, I drink and alcohol is taxed heavily, gasoline taxes, misc taxes on the phone service (between me and my daughters, that is 3 phones I am getting taxed on), there is a special tax on my internet service, there is more, but you get the point. When I did the math a few months ago, it really did come out to 50%. Don't you think that is an extreme tax rate for middle income? I certainly do.
     
  11. Sgt Schultz

    Sgt Schultz New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    The suburbs of St. Louis
    I agree taxes are too high but I'm tired of using my tax dollars to subsidize professional sports teams to build new stadiums. I'm tired of giving tax breaks to Walmart, Home Depot and other large businesses to build a new store a few miles down the road because the tax breaks they used to build their current store is about to run out. I could go on and on if you catch my drift. My taxes wouldn't need to be so high if I wasn't subsidizing the rich and businesses so they don't have to pay their fair share.
     
  12. top gun

    top gun New Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    4,940
    Likes Received:
    34
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    Well I think we both know that people aren't going to go out and build roads & Interstate Highways for free if taxes were just lower. I'm sure we really do agree on that.:)

    On everything else you said I don't think that we are really in disagreement either. To be more clear on the 10% of taxes I wasn't using real percentages (I just used an easy math number 10%). I realize taxes are much more than 10%.

    To reply to Fry I was just making the point that the actual amount of money paid in higher tax brackets is more... but it is for the most part proportional to the ratio "percentage of income wise" in lower brackets. Lower income having earned income credit etc. while higher incomes often having more tax shelters like property tax and mortgage interest deductions.

    We're in agreement that taxes can create a hardship. As you watch my posts on taxes you see that I try to keep my position consistent. Things like Social Security & Medicare are as important as things get and should ALWAYS be funded. However I was totally on board when President Clinton implemented massive Welfare reform limiting time on the program & benefits, and I would only support a National Healthcare Program if it were proven to me that healthcare costs would stay the same or lower to the individual taxpayer. And of course I've tried to be extremely outspoken on the disastrous effect this monstrous, run away freight train spending to occupy Iraq is going to be to all American taxpayers.

    So overall we're in agreement. It's really how we spend our money that's most important. If our leaders spend recklessly... we will pay the price in higher taxes.
     
  13. Cheshire Cat

    Cheshire Cat New Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2007
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Wonderland
    I wonder what you would consider a businesses "fair share" to be?
    Now that I have asked that question, let me explain to you how businesses don't pay tax.
    Businesses only collect taxes from the consumer, this is an economic fact. If the government were to raise taxes on business, there are only two possible outcomes of this action. One would be for the business to stop doing business, the other would be for them to raise prices to offset the tax. In other words they pass on that increased tax to the consumer. By raising taxes on a business, the government is only forcing the business to act as a tax collector for them. You and I ultimately pay that tax, unfortunately, that is the economic reality of taxing a business.
     
  14. vyo476

    vyo476 Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,401
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    It kinda makes you think, doesn't it? You know, that our ancestors fought the American Revolution to end unjust taxation. Was it "taxation without representation is a sin" or was it just "we don't want you taking our money"? At first, our Founding Fathers wanted to avoid taxes as much as possible. When it became obvious that they were a necessary evil they imposed a few. Over the years those few have grown and grown and now...here we are, carrying around pocket calculators and a short list of taxes and their percentages that's longer than the Declaration of Independence just to figure out if we're going to have enough money to buy two cans of soup rather than just one.

    Maybe I've been listening to Truth-Bringer too much but I've grown to really dislike taxation in general. We need to shave the system down - go back to the essentials and then see what else would be useful to keep from there.
     
  15. Sgt Schultz

    Sgt Schultz New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    188
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    The suburbs of St. Louis
    I expect businesses to be taxed accordingly for police protection, fire protection, infrastructure support, etc. They shouldn't be treated any differently than any other citizen out there paying their taxes.
     
Loading...

Share This Page