What Interrogation Techniques are Acceptable?

[BigRob]

Top Gun, I appreciate debating with you, but I will back off responding in this thread since it is off topic. (which is my fault as well)

If you would like to make a new thread on abortion I would be all about continuing the debate. If not, I will just claim victory.

 

[top gun]

Post #203:


Rob and Dr. Who,

Please stop enabling Top Gun in his intentional derailment of the topic.

Hey come on I was happier talking about inditing Emperor Bush & Darth Cheney.

But if someone mixes in religion & abortion... I'm fine answering anything.

I think as long as Bush's people don't leave the US for vacation or something they'll probably get away with the torture gig. President Obama has stopped the practices and says he wants to move forward for the best interests of the United States.

I'm fine with that. The country and the world know what Bush let happen... that's a pox on his house (or Party).

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Is causing someone to go deaf, torture?


This is exactly the kind of stuff I wanted to get into....

Q. What Interrogation Techniques are Acceptable?
A. "Everything up to the point of torture."

Both ASPCA and PLC agreed that Waterboarding was torture, as do many of you out there, but their "point" of where interrogation becomes torture is different. Notice that PLC is not attacking ASPCA as a supporter of torture though... He's not suggesting that ASPCA just shoot people in the head and be done with it and he's not declaring his position on the moral high ground.This is why I think its important for everyone here to find and name their "point" where interrogation becomes torture.

Bunz, you think the discussion has been good so far... People who previously claimed to hold the moral high ground for considering waterboarding torture will suddenly find themselves confronted with a technique they approve of as not being torture but someone else does consider torture. Which one now has the moral high ground? Ultimately, does the person suggesting 5 star hotel treatment hold the moral high ground? These are rhetorical but, nevertheless, brilliant questions.

I hope to see this thread continue in this direction of people coming to terms with where their "point" begins and comparing that to where the "points" are located for others.

OK...now that you've 'stirred my brain cells out of their dormancy/hibernation'...I've been thinking about this topic.

For me and my issue of what 'real torture is and isn't'...I could cause another human being more discomfort from an exterior room without laying my hands on them...ergo the reasoning for my lack of discomfort or avoidance for waterboarding!!!

If I was just applying the loud noise via a external speaker towards a subject matter, or controlling the knob on the thermostat for more heat or more cold to be applied. For me and my abhorrence of violence to another human; the mire thought of "would I have to subject that other human with 'MY OWN HANDS', tying them up/blindfolding them and tipping that board at an angle and then pouring the water over their heads while I had to listen to them struggle to breathe.

I've discovered I'm pretty squeamish about doing the 'nasty deed' as long as I'm not the one putting my hands on them...I would make a good director of the implementation...and my coming to terms with that thought is greatly unsettling...even with my limp humor about Roseanne Barr screeching the National Anthem into their ears!!!

 

[Pandora]

OK...now that you've 'stirred my brain cells out of their dormancy/hibernation'...I've been thinking about this topic.

For me and my issue of what 'real torture is and isn't'...I could cause another human being more discomfort from an exterior room without laying my hands on them...ergo the reasoning for my lack of discomfort or avoidance for waterboarding!!!

If I was just applying the loud noise via a external speaker towards a subject matter, or controlling the knob on the thermostat for more heat or more cold to be applied. For me and my abhorrence of violence to another human; the mire thought of "would I have to subject that other human with 'MY OWN HANDS', tying them up/blindfolding them and tipping that board at an angle and then pouring the water over their heads while I had to listen to them struggle to breathe.

I've discovered I'm pretty squeamish about doing the 'nasty deed' as long as I'm not the one putting my hands on them...I would make a good director of the implementation...and my coming to terms with that thought is greatly unsettling...even with my limp humor about Roseanne Barr screeching the National Anthem into their ears!!!

Do you think there is a difference in doing these kinds of things to get someone to talk for national security reasons and doing those same things because they did not agree with you?

I might not be saying it right...

But like John McCain was subjected to a lot of torture but not to gain information, more to make him say political things or write political things.

Hitler subjected millions to torture but just because he did not like them.

So on and so on

Do you see those kinds of torture the same as if you are trying to get information to stop a bomb or an attack?


I do see it different but I don’t like that I know I am willing personally to go much further than anything written in these forums if I thought the cause was just. I don’t think I would be willing to pass a law that anyone in charge can do what ever needed to get information, because I don’t trust everyone and someone might be just crazy and want to hurt for the fun of it and I know I could and would hurt but only to save lives.

Was that at all understandable? It’s clear in my head but not sure it got in print the way I mean it.

 

[GenSeneca]

President Obama has stopped the practices and says he wants to move forward for the best interests of the United States.

I'm fine with that.

Lets try this again:

Q. What Interrogation Techniques are Acceptable?
A. "Everything up to the point of torture."

That was your answer.

Now please, give an example of an interrogation technique that would be almost to your "point" of torture, and a technique that's just barely past your "point" of where interrogation ends and torture begins.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Do you think there is a difference in doing these kinds of things to get someone to talk for national security reasons and doing those same things because they did not agree with you?

I might not be saying it right...

But like John McCain was subjected to a lot of torture but not to gain information, more to make him say political things or write political things.

Hitler subjected millions to torture but just because he did not like them.

So on and so on

Do you see those kinds of torture the same as if you are trying to get information to stop a bomb or an attack?

I do see it different but I don’t like that I know I am willing personally to go much further than anything written in these forums if I thought the cause was just. I don’t think I would be willing to pass a law that anyone in charge can do what ever needed to get information, because I don’t trust everyone and someone might be just crazy and want to hurt for the fun of it and I know I could and would hurt but only to save lives.

Was that at all understandable? It’s clear in my head but not sure it got in print the way I mean it.

Yes, I understand your point and it's always made me hesitate to be so quick to revenge after a specific type/style/race {i.e. right after the 9-11 event}...I can remember my Mother and some friends kept repeating "I hope that they find those bastards that are responsible and make them pay"...and I kept thinking that I just hoped that it would stop and no one else would get hurt/harmed/suffer!

But I'm also very pro-choice, support the death penalty and I'm VERY anti abusing animals...HELL I'M ALL OVER THE PLACE WITH MY BELIEFS.

But for this specific issue/topic I'll try to stay focused on the 'National Security portion'...hmm

If we had to have the information immediately, I would prefer the use of a hypodermic shot of something 'truth serum whatever' and then hypnosis as the kicker back up solution...then I might be pushed for the bright light/sleep deprivation/loud noises intermingled with alternating bouts of extreme cold and heat...but to just start utilizing the immediate physical manipulations...I would not think that I could sign off on that nor be a party to that...I just don't think that I could!!!

BUT...if I had lost a family member/it was my neighborhood under attack/I had just been rescued from the WTC...I'm not so sure the my 'rational thinking process would be so...kind/gentle/warm & fuzzy...if you get my drift!!!

 

[Pandora]

Yes, I understand your point and it's always made me hesitate to be so quick to revenge after a specific type/style/race {i.e. right after the 9-11 event}...I can remember my Mother and some friends kept repeating "I hope that they find those bastards that are responsible and make them pay"...and I kept thinking that I just hoped that it would stop and no one else would get hurt/harmed/suffer!

But I'm also very pro-choice, support the death penalty and I'm VERY anti abusing animals...HELL I'M ALL OVER THE PLACE WITH MY BELIEFS.

But for this specific issue/topic I'll try to stay focused on the 'National Security portion'...hmm

If we had to have the information immediately, I would prefer the use of a hypodermic shot of something 'truth serum whatever' and then hypnosis as the kicker back up solution...then I might be pushed for the bright light/sleep deprivation/loud noises intermingled with alternating bouts of extreme cold and heat...but to just start utilizing the immediate physical manipulations...I would not think that I could sign off on that nor be a party to that...I just don't think that I could!!!

BUT...if I had lost a family member/it was my neighborhood under attack/I had just been rescued from the WTC...I'm not so sure the my 'rational thinking process would be so...kind/gentle/warm & fuzzy...if you get my drift!!!

That’s funny, I am pro life, against the death penalty (because I am pro life) but Im right there with you on be nice to animals. But im pro hunting too and eating your kill exc.


I was thinking something we had not touched on at least I don’t think we have.

What if the person you are questioning may or may not have info? We have talked about if the person you are holding has information and you need it to stop a bombing or attack.

But what if we had no idea if the person knew anything or not? I would not feel right about doing really anything more than just questioning them in a normal situation unless I had good reason to believe they knew vital information.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

That’s funny, I am pro life, against the death penalty (because I am pro life) but Im right there with you on be nice to animals. But im pro hunting too and eating your kill exc.


I was thinking something we had not touched on at least I don’t think we have.

What if the person you are questioning may or may not have info? We have talked about if the person you are holding has information and you need it to stop a bombing or attack.

But what if we had no idea if the person knew anything or not? I would not feel right about doing really anything more than just questioning them in a normal situation unless I had good reason to believe they knew vital information.

But therein really lies the 'rub'!!! What a dilemma!!!

Not all of the people that are captured will be the 'main frame brains behind the scheme'...they will just be the worker bees the poor unfortunate ones that for whatever reasons chose to: make some money, make a name for themselves, were given poor advice about this 'job', or as some have been showing up in Iraq mentally impaired without a clue as to what it was that they were carrying or that they had wired to their persons...so who do we
'torture and whom do we just hold onto'? Or in some of the Iraq detainees in Guatanhamo (sp) is that they were turned over by some other warring factions for 'bounty and revenge' for nefarious reasons other then they were not Taliban or Al Qaeda...and they've been there for 5-7 years...just waiting for some chance to have their legal day in court!

Meanwhile trying to understand the complexities for the region/nationality/religion/language/life styles types while 'hoping & keeping our fingers crossed that they will give us something important enough to be able to circumvent another plot/plan/disaster...good grief. It seems horribly monumental and we were so very very unprepared for 9-11. IMO

 

[top gun]

Top Gun, I appreciate debating with you, but I will back off responding in this thread since it is off topic. (which is my fault as well)

If you would like to make a new thread on abortion I would be all about continuing the debate. If not, I will just claim victory.

No not necessary... I'd just win their too!

I'm the one on the side of the long standing SCOTUS precedent.

I've already moved on too my friend...

 

[GenSeneca]

No not necessary... I'd just win their too!
I've already moved on too my friend...

You just haven't moved back to the topic.... Most people would call that a failure:

Q. What Interrogation Techniques are Acceptable?
A. "Everything up to the point of torture."

That was your answer.

Now please, give an example of an interrogation technique that would be almost to your "point" of torture, and a technique that's just barely past your "point" of where interrogation ends and torture begins.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Did anyone else catch the news on NBC...Charlie Gibson was reporting on some more recent released documents that showed how 2 of the 'Water Boarding' specialist were paid for their 'DOCTORS' signatures to sign off on the way in which it wasn't harmful to the recipients...OMG

And then the report went on to state that those two men were on the receiveing end or more then 138 water boardings on one man and over 35 on the other Asian looking guy who supposedly cracked after just one 'water boarding'.

This is becoming more and more apparent that this has to be investigated and a thorough checks & balances put on the system and people who have modified the basic manual for torture...this went way beyond what should have ever taken place.

 

[Pandora]

Did anyone else catch the news on NBC...Charlie Gibson was reporting on some more recent released documents that showed how 2 of the 'Water Boarding' specialist were paid for their 'DOCTORS' signatures to sign off on the way in which it wasn't harmful to the recipients...OMG

And then the report went on to state that those two men were on the receiveing end or more then 138 water boardings on one man and over 35 on the other Asian looking guy who supposedly cracked after just one 'water boarding'.

This is becoming more and more apparent that this has to be investigated and a thorough checks & balances put on the system and people who have modified the basic manual for torture...this went way beyond what should have ever taken place.

I did not see it, I dont like Charlie Gibson. Do you have a website for the actual documents? After Dan Rather not tell the truths documents I like to make sure they are real.

 

[PLC1]

Here's an illustration of an unacceptable interrogation technique:

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Hey come on I was happier talking about indicting Emperor Bush & Darth Cheney.

But if someone mixes in religion & abortion... I'm fine answering anything.

HERE'S one, for ya'!! ​

"The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey."​

 

[top gun]

HERE'S one, for ya'!! ​

Interesting but I guess not percentage wise unsuspected I guess if you break it down and analyze it.

The Radical arm of the Religious Right has had a stranglehold on the GOP which is comparatively the Party of torture.

So when you run the numbers it makes sense that the tilt would be there percentage wise with church goers and torture do in part to likely political bend.

Don't want a bunch of people saying I'm just anti-church... I'm not I'm neutral.

Not saying church goers are all torture apeasers... just saying your statistics make sense.