What do you think of Independents

[ASPCA4EVER]

I didn't realize America had her best days behind her? This country has gone through some tough times but we as a nation have endured. No one man or entity can destroy us over night. It's like this. We've survived a civil war, a great depression, two world wars, and a terrorist attack, but yet we're still here.

He's deaf from that constant clanging of those 'DOOMS DAY BELLS'...

ALWAYS is just sitting around wringing his hands/wailing and in a fetal position counting down the days/hours/minutes until it will be
ALL OVER

 

[GenSeneca]

Yes I do. I'm moderate and independent. Like I said before I'm liberal on some things and conservative on others. Sounds like a contradiction but it's how I think and feel. So I'm a moderate.

While someone will be along to harrang me for the comments I'm about to make, I want you to know I do not say these things to be rude or condescending, simply for the sake of clarifying issues that I think are too often, and intentionally, misconstrued.

Your statements would lead me to believe you understand:

Independent=Moderate=Centrist : Therefore all are one in the same.

I am an Independent but I am not a Moderate and I'm certainly not a Centrist. Moderates and Centrists are not the same. Centrism is its own political philosophy, Moderate is a designation attached to a particular philosophy and Independent is simply not affiliated with either party.

Again, I'm not trying to be arrogant or sound preachy, I just think it's incredibly important that when dealing with any specific terms, we use the specific definitions associated with the terms so there is no confusion.

 

[GenSeneca]

I want to work with and for the people by actually listening.

How is what you want to do any different from Populism?

 

[Mr. Harris]

Well it shares ideas but is that not what the founding fathers wanted? A government for the people and by the people?

 

[GenSeneca]

Well it shares ideas but is that not what the founding fathers wanted? A government for the people and by the people?

Again, which people? The majority? Because the founders didn't want a tyranny of the majority but that is what we've allowed our government to become.

If we look at California, for example, they voted to expand government services and then they voted against raising taxes to pay for those expanded services.

Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too, and if possible, their neighbors cake as well.

 

[always]

He's deaf from that constant clanging of those 'DOOMS DAY BELLS'...

ALWAYS is just sitting around wringing his hands/wailing and in a fetal position counting down the days/hours/minutes until it will be
ALL OVER

AS, ASPCA states, "They came for the social misfits and took them away!"

If true, why are you still here? Yes, "Always", always asking the most poignant question at the most enlightened moment , exposing the complete lack of understanding of the subject matter by the author of the post! Next!

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Well it shares ideas but is that not what the founding fathers wanted? A government for the people and by the people?

Mr. Harris...I hear many a conservative totting the founding fathers as if they knew exactly what they were thinking/what they ate/ what their deep seated feelings were about the air that they breathed at that moment in history
But I still think back to the very premise that all of those men standing around in those chambers were all prosperous landowners who had either indentured servants or slaves working their land for them...so who were they really representing EXACTLY?

 

[always]

Mr. Harris...I hear many a conservative totting the founding fathers as if they knew exactly what they were thinking/what they ate/ what their deep seated feelings were about the air that they breathed at that moment in history
But I still think back to the very premise that all of those men standing around in those chambers were all prosperous landowners who had either indentured servants or slaves working their land for them...so who were they really representing EXACTLY?

I assume you have the advantage on the rest of us , my guess is you have on site knowledge of the happenings!

 

[GenSeneca]

Mr. Harris...I hear many a conservative totting the founding fathers as if they knew exactly what they were thinking/what they ate/ what their deep seated feelings were about the air that they breathed at that moment in history

Believe it or not, the founders did know how to read and write. If you think it's odd that people can know what they thought about this or that issue, it's because we actually bothered reading what they had to say about the topic... Strange concept for you to grasp I'm sure.

 

[Helicitor]

Mr. Harris...I hear many a conservative totting the founding fathers as if they knew exactly what they were thinking/what they ate/ what their deep seated feelings were about the air that they breathed at that moment in history
But I still think back to the very premise that all of those men standing around in those chambers were all prosperous landowners who had either indentured servants or slaves working their land for them...so who were they really representing EXACTLY?

Now now now, your hyperbole is showing.

At the time of the convention, 13 men were merchants: Blount, Broom, Clymer, Dayton, Fitzsimons, Shields, Gilman, Gorham, Langdon, Robert Morris, Pierce, Sherman, and Wilson.

Six were major land speculators: Blount, Dayton, Fitzsimons, Gorham, Robert Morris, and Wilson.

Eleven speculated in securities on a large scale: Bedford, Blair, Clymer, Dayton, Fitzsimons, Franklin, King, Langdon, Robert Morris, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, and Sherman.

Twelve owned or managed slave-operated plantations or large farms: Bassett, Blair, Blount, Butler, Carroll, Jenifer, Jefferson, Mason, Charles Pinckney, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, Rutledge, Spaight, and Washington. Madison also owned slaves, as did Franklin, who later freed his slaves and was a key founder of the Pennsylvania Anti-Slavery Society. Alexander Hamilton was opposed to slavery and, with John Jay and other anti-slavery advocates, helped to found the first African free school in New York City. Jay helped to found the New York Manumission Society and, when he was governor of New York in 1798, signed into law the state statute ending slavery as of 1821. [Total slave owners 14 out of 55]

Broom and Few were small farmers.

Eight of the men received a substantial part of their income from public office: Baldwin, Blair, Brearly, Gilman, Livingston, Madison, and Rutledge.

Three had retired from active economic endeavors: Franklin, McHenry, and Mifflin.

Franklin and Williamson were scientists, in addition to their other activities.

McClurg, McHenry, and Williamson were physicians, and Johnson was a college president.

We know what a lot of these men thought because they devoted a lot of effort into writing their thoughts down, and making arguments for public consideration about why the constitution should be ratified. Hmmm--public debate. Truly a lost art.

 

[ASPCA4EVER]

Now now now, your hyperbole is showing.

At the time of the convention, 13 men were merchants: Blount, Broom, Clymer, Dayton, Fitzsimons, Shields, Gilman, Gorham, Langdon, Robert Morris, Pierce, Sherman, and Wilson.

Six were major land speculators: Blount, Dayton, Fitzsimons, Gorham, Robert Morris, and Wilson.

Eleven speculated in securities on a large scale: Bedford, Blair, Clymer, Dayton, Fitzsimons, Franklin, King, Langdon, Robert Morris, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, and Sherman.

Twelve owned or managed slave-operated plantations or large farms: Bassett, Blair, Blount, Butler, Carroll, Jenifer, Jefferson, Mason, Charles Pinckney, Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, Rutledge, Spaight, and Washington. Madison also owned slaves, as did Franklin, who later freed his slaves and was a key founder of the Pennsylvania Anti-Slavery Society. Alexander Hamilton was opposed to slavery and, with John Jay and other anti-slavery advocates, helped to found the first African free school in New York City. Jay helped to found the New York Manumission Society and, when he was governor of New York in 1798, signed into law the state statute ending slavery as of 1821. [Total slave owners 14 out of 55]

Broom and Few were small farmers.

Eight of the men received a substantial part of their income from public office: Baldwin, Blair, Brearly, Gilman, Livingston, Madison, and Rutledge.

Three had retired from active economic endeavors: Franklin, McHenry, and Mifflin.

Franklin and Williamson were scientists, in addition to their other activities.

McClurg, McHenry, and Williamson were physicians, and Johnson was a college president.

We know what a lot of these men thought because they devoted a lot of effort into writing their thoughts down, and making arguments for public consideration about why the constitution should be ratified. Hmmm--public debate. Truly a lost art.

Thank you that was interesting reading I had forgotten about the number of merchants that were at least putting their time in to the may-lay

I personally would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during all of that discussion but for the amount of smoke in the room which surely would have killed me..but being a female my role would have been allotted to just fetching the grog and emptying the spittoons...LOL

 

[Mr. Harris]

Now rather than arguing, I simply asked for opinions on Idependents. I wanted to know your feelings on elections and if a canidate had good ideas, would you vote for him or her even if they were not with the Republicans or Democrats?

 

[ktucan1]

While someone will be along to harrang me for the comments I'm about to make, I want you to know I do not say these things to be rude or condescending, simply for the sake of clarifying issues that I think are too often, and intentionally, misconstrued.

Your statements would lead me to believe you understand:

Independent=Moderate=Centrist : Therefore all are one in the same.

I am an Independent but I am not a Moderate and I'm certainly not a Centrist. Moderates and Centrists are not the same. Centrism is its own political philosophy, Moderate is a designation attached to a particular philosophy and Independent is simply not affiliated with either party.

Again, I'm not trying to be arrogant or sound preachy, I just think it's incredibly important that when dealing with any specific terms, we use the specific definitions associated with the terms so there is no confusion.

Gen. I would never take you for being arrogant.It's all good and ty for your response.

 

[GenSeneca]

Now rather than arguing, I simply asked for opinions on Idependents. I wanted to know your feelings on elections and if a canidate had good ideas, would you vote for him or her even if they were not with the Republicans or Democrats?

I don't know about everyone else but I vote for politicians based on their core principles. I don't care how good their ideas sound, they need to have the political backbone to stand on core principles or their promises are nothing but pillow talk.

Individual Rights

Free Markets

Limited Government

Fiscal Responsibility

If a politician cannot convince me that these are his core principles and he is unwilling to compromise on them, then he doesn't get my vote.

 

[Mr. Harris]

First off, I believe all individuals, regardless of race, sex, and sexual orientation, should have equal rights. I also believe that free markets are what made this country so rich in the first place. I also think that smaller government is better, limiting the federal and state. Last but not least, the government should always carry out their duties, especially when dealing with tax payer money.