Wal Mart shoppers are running out of money.

[GenSeneca]

The problem remains that if those third world factory workers aren't able to buy what they produce, then the market is severely limited.

Do you have a specific example? Because it sounds like you're grasping at hypothetical straws with that comment.

and there are those WalMart shoppers who can't even afford the cost of shopping for inexpensive goods there.

You yourself asked in the OP if there were "other" factors regarding lower consumer spending.

Economist says hard times will linger
May. 15, 2011

The Great Recession has caused a big change in the way businesses and consumers save and spend money. In short, the U.S. savings rate is going up; spending will be restrained, cautious.
...
“Businesses and consumers are saving more. They’re raising reserves. Consumer spending is permanently subdued,” Allsbrook said.

The U.S. savings rates for the typical household has risen to 6 percent as a portion of after-tax income. In the recent pre-recession days of easy money, no-money-down home loans and betting on the come, Americans typically saved less than2 percent of their take-home pay.

“Now, I’d say 6 percent is the floor of the savings rate,” Allsbrook said. “Consumer spending is going to taper off as this year continues.”​

I find it entirely plausible that Americans have increased their savings from 2% to 6% by purchasing less cheap-plastic-crap from WalMart. Seriously, just take a look at some of the polling data, American's aren't buying into the rosy rhetoric about the economy:

New York Times: Nation’s Mood at Lowest Level in Two Years, Poll Shows
April 21, 2011

Americans are more pessimistic about the nation’s economic outlook and overall direction than they have been at any time since President Obama’s first two months in office, when the country was still officially ensnared in the Great Recession, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.

Amid rising gas prices, stubborn unemployment and a cacophonous debate in Washington over the federal government’s ability to meet its future obligations, the poll presents stark evidence that the slow, if unsteady, gains in public confidence earlier this year that a recovery was under way are now all but gone.​

So is it more likely that Americans are "out of money" or that they are simply in a financial defense mode over fears of another economic downturn?

If they have no money, then there is no market. Why produce goods if no one can buy them?

Again, I don't think it's a matter of "can't" buy them. Consumers are being pinched but I think there's a self-defense mechanism that kicks in with *most* Americans that causes them to be more mindful of what they have to spend money on while choosing to cut back on the more frivolous purchases.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

So specialization of resources is a bad thing in your opinion?



So, are you arguing that specialization of resources is the cause for high unemployment?

it is if you specialize in buying cheap crap. if the main thing that powers our econ is buying things cheaper...then the only jobs we end up with are retail jobs...and those pay crap...and thus we need cheaper stuff to pay for...becuse our retail jobs of selling cheap crap to people does not pay us enough to buy..the cheap crap we are selling....and in order to make the cheap crap cheaper so we can buy it...we move that production of cheap crap to country with a crap econ and pay there workers even worse to make even less quality...cheap crap...

The US has some of the most productive workers in the world...but yet the only way for them to keep there jobs is to get payed what someone doing 1 3rd the work in China can do.

 

[GenSeneca]

The REAL problem is how can American business be competitive when our government imposes heavy taxation and all sorts of costly regulations on our businesses while competing nations have none?

Competing nations certainly have fewer government hurdles than American businesses but to say they have "none" is an exaggeration. We would certainly be better off as a nation if the government were to limit it's involvement with the economy to protecting the public from force and fraud. Everything the government is doing beyond that, only serves to impede the US economy.

You would think those intelligent politicians in DC would have figured this out before our manufacturing base is completely destroyed and our middle class eliminated. I guess its more important to fund ever growing government and entitlements for the poor, elderly, unions, teachers, etc...

Despite government's efforts to drive away business, we remain the worlds number one manufacturer of goods... But that could certainly change if the Anti-Business-Pro-Debt steamroller known as Congress is allowed to continue on it's suicidal path of wanton destruction.

As for the middle class, it's a statistical group that cannot be eliminated. If you're concerned about the US economy shedding "middle class" jobs, we lose far more jobs to technological innovation than we do to outsourcing.

Outsourcing impacts less than 0.2% of US Employment

Outsourcing often receives much media and political notoriety. One possibility as to why outsourcing is the receipt of such attention is because outsourcing strikes a negative reaction amongst the general population. The impact of outsourcing on US employment is however unjustifiably over-exaggerated.
...
A considerable greater number of Americans lose jobs to technology or domestic competition than in comparison to outsourcing. Computers and other technologic advancements eliminated high volumes of typists, telephone operators and bank tellers jobs. Half a million jobs for typists and word processors were lost from 1988 to 2000 not as a consequence of outsourcing but as a result of technical progression.

This does not mean that advancement in computer technology is detrimental. With the advent of digital cameras Kodak removed 15,000 workers because of the decrease in film popularity. But the US economy is both resilient and innovative, job loss will be compensated with job created. However, it is only when jobs are outsourced do the job losses appear to make the news. ​

 

[GenSeneca]

it is if you specialize in buying cheap crap. if the main thing that powers our econ is buying things cheaper...then the only jobs we end up with are retail jobs...and those pay crap...and thus we need cheaper stuff to pay for...becuse our retail jobs of selling cheap crap to people does not pay us enough to buy..the cheap crap we are selling....and in order to make the cheap crap cheaper so we can buy it...we move that production of cheap crap to country with a crap econ and pay there workers even worse to make even less quality...cheap crap...

I get to say it again:

Do you have a specific example? Because it sounds like you're grasping at hypothetical straws with that comment.

 

[Gipper]

Competing nations certainly have fewer government hurdles than American businesses but to say they have "none" is an exaggeration. We would certainly be better off as a nation if the government were to limit it's involvement with the economy to protecting the public from force and fraud. Everything the government is doing beyond that, only serves to impede the US economy.


Despite government's efforts to drive away business, we remain the worlds number one manufacturer of goods... But that could certainly change if the Anti-Business-Pro-Debt steamroller known as Congress is allowed to continue on it's suicidal path of wanton destruction.

As for the middle class, it's a statistical group that cannot be eliminated. If you're concerned about the US economy shedding "middle class" jobs, we lose far more jobs to technological innovation than we do to outsourcing.
[/I][/INDENT]

Yes "none" was an exaggeration, but companies in China do not have anywhere near the government impediments imposed on them as companies do in the USA. This is why much of our manufacturing base has disappeared. Yes, we still are the largest manufacturer in the world, but maybe not for much longer.

Outsourcing is a different issue. Companies who close their doors are not outsourcing. They did not outsource to China or any other nation. Those jobs are gone. Outsourcing is typically a procedure utilized by the multinational corporations.

These two graphs are not primarily the result of out sourcing.

US Manufacturing Employment As A Percentage Of Total Employment

 

[PLC1]

I get to say it again:

Do you have a specific example? Because it sounds like you're grasping at hypothetical straws with that comment.

Not really so much a hypothetical as a general principle.

Take a look at the graphs that Gipper posted. What does that tell you about why unemployment here is so high?

You made the point that consumers are more cautious and likely to save rather than spend. Why might that be? Could it be job insecurity, or are people just learning to be more cautious fiscally?

We've been reading for a while that our savings rate is too low, so maybe something good will come out of the recession after all.

 

[Gipper]

That graph clearly shows a precipitous drop in US manufacturing employment since 2000. During this same period, Chinese manufacturing employment has probably spiked.

According to this site, the USA is no longer the world's top manufacturer.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/global_economy/article_1021835_printer.shtml

According to this website, the share of world manufacturing output for China in 2000 was 6.9%, but by 2010 it was 19.8%. That is an amazing increase which has hurt the middle class of America and the negative ramifications are becoming apparent.

While I have no problem with China's rise, our progressive federal government needs to implement policies which allow manufacturing to flourish. However, I see nothing but harmful policies being promoted by the current administration.

Great job progressives! You are about to kill the goose that laid golden eggs for generations of Americans.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

That graph clearly shows a precipitous drop in US manufacturing employment since 2000. During this same period, Chinese manufacturing employment has probably spiked.

According to this site, the USA is no longer the world's top manufacturer.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/global_economy/article_1021835_printer.shtml

According to this website, the share of world manufacturing output for China in 2000 was 6.9%, but by 2010 it was 19.8%. That is an amazing increase which has hurt the middle class of America and the negative ramifications are becoming apparent.

While I have no problem with China's rise, our progressive federal government needs to implement policies which allow manufacturing to flourish. However, I see nothing but harmful policies being promoted by the current administration.

Great job progressives! You are about to kill the goose that laid golden eggs for generations of Americans.

hmmm since 2000 you say? who was it that took over at that time...that Bush guy? republican I think?

 

[Gipper]

hmmm since 2000 you say? who was it that took over at that time...that Bush guy? republican I think?

There you go again...I love that line. You are still stuck in Ds good...Rs bad...DUH!!! Wake up dude and stop watching MSLSD.

Bush was a progressive like you!!! Why do you not accept the truth about Bush? He and you agree on nearly every issue.

The Rs are mostly progressives LIKE YOU and in 2000 was a party nearly completely infected with foolish progressives. Why do you hate them so when they are like you?

You would think after all these years of progressive leadership, the people would wake up to the failures of this most heinous and intolerant ideology. I think they will in 2012.

"Anybody but BO."...is the motto for 2012!!!!!

 

[Centrehalf]

US Manufacturing Employment As A Percentage Of Total Employment

These graphs don't show a weak economy in my opinion. They deal strictly with employment numbers, and all they do is verify that American workers are extremely productive. Employment has fallen as a percentage of the total, but output hasn't fallen. Some sources make the case that output has stagnated but it's very hard to compare the economies and manufacturing outputs of different nations because there are so many factors involved, such as currency exchange rates and commodity prices, which can significantly change the output numbers even if the amount actually produced hasn't changed.

If you really want to blame someone or something for declining employment, I would suggest blaming Comparative Advantage and technological improvements. In a way we're a victim of our own success and accomplishments because we've innovated and worked our way into a state that just doesn't need as many workers as we used to.

 

[PLC1]

"Anybody but BO."...is the motto for 2012!!!!!

Much like anyone who is different from Bush was the motto for 2008, but what did we wind up with? Bush. Barorge Obambush. Hope and change indeed. Now, who do you think that anybody but Obama is going to be? Newt and Ron Paul are the only choices thus far.

 

[Dr.Who]

That graph clearly shows a precipitous drop in US manufacturing employment since 2000. During this same period, Chinese manufacturing employment has probably spiked.

According to this site, the USA is no longer the world's top manufacturer.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/global_economy/article_1021835_printer.shtml

According to this website, the share of world manufacturing output for China in 2000 was 6.9%, but by 2010 it was 19.8%. That is an amazing increase which has hurt the middle class of America and the negative ramifications are becoming apparent.

While I have no problem with China's rise, our progressive federal government needs to implement policies which allow manufacturing to flourish. However, I see nothing but harmful policies being promoted by the current administration.

Great job progressives! You are about to kill the goose that laid golden eggs for generations of Americans.

U.S. manufacturing has not dropped as much as U.S. manufacturing employment. The manufacturing process has become so much more efficient that we now need less employees to produce a large amount of goods.

I agree that U.S. manufacturing has dropped and that Chinese manufacturing has increased but I am not so sure it is as bad as one might think.

 

[Gipper]

U.S. manufacturing has not dropped as much as U.S. manufacturing employment. The manufacturing process has become so much more efficient that we now need less employees to produce a large amount of goods.

I agree that U.S. manufacturing has dropped and that Chinese manufacturing has increased but I am not so sure it is as bad as one might think.

Oh its a bad thing...for Americans.

Those relatively high paying manufacturing jobs middle America could count on in the past are gone. Combine this with the failing public school system, which has very effectively screwed millions of Americans with a deficient education, and you have a growing underclass. A significant percentage of Americans are not prepared for the modern economy and they will be a drag on productivity for decades to come.

In the past, Americans with a high school education could gain a middle class life style by working in the factories. Not any more and the ramifications of this will be most unfortunate.

Working at McDonalds does not career make.

 

[BigRob]

Oh its a bad thing...for Americans.

Those relatively high paying manufacturing jobs middle America could count on in the past are gone. Combine this with the failing public school system, which has very effectively screwed millions of Americans with a deficient education, and you have a growing underclass. A significant percentage of Americans are not prepared for the modern economy and they will be a drag on productivity for decades to come.

In the past, Americans with a high school education could gain a middle class life style by working in the factories. Not any more and the ramifications of this will be most unfortunate.

Working at McDonalds does not career make.

I am a little lost...are you implying that deteriorating American education is the cause of fewer manufacturing jobs in the US?

To me it seems to come down to this:

We live in a global economy...adapt or get left behind.

 

[GenSeneca]

Those relatively high paying manufacturing jobs middle America could count on in the past are gone.

Lets look at the facts: 0.2% of those 'Middle Class Jobs' left the country due to outsourcing while the other 99.8% of those 'Middle Class Jobs' are gone because of technological advancements.

I know you don't buy into the zero-sum-game fallacy of the Left, who claim that rich people get rich at the expense of everyone else... So I hope you're not trying to say that China's growth in manufacturing is coming at our expense.

A significant percentage of Americans are not prepared for the modern economy and they will be a drag on productivity for decades to come.

You mean the Democrat base?

In the past, Americans with a high school education could gain a middle class life style by working in the factories. Not any more and the ramifications of this will be most unfortunate.

Hooray for the Welfare State! The Democrat party is the part of the poor, that's why they work so hard to create as many poor people as possible, it's job security.