Vietnam Redux

[Stalin]

"...In March or April 2007, three noncommissioned United States Army officers, including a first sergeant, a platoon sergeant and a senior medic, killed four Iraqi prisoners with pistol shots to the head as the men stood handcuffed and blindfolded beside a Baghdad canal, two of the soldiers said in sworn statements.

After the killings, the first sergeant — the senior noncommissioned officer of his Army company — told the other two to remove the men’s bloody blindfolds and plastic handcuffs, according to the statements made to Army investigators, which were obtained by The New York Times.

The statements and other court documents were provided by a person close to one of the soldiers in the unit who insisted on anonymity and who has an interest in the outcome of the legal proceedings.

After removing the blindfolds and handcuffs, the three soldiers shoved the four bodies into the canal, rejoined other members of their unit waiting in nearby vehicles and drove back to their combat outpost in southwest Baghdad, the statements said.

more at http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/27/w...ssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

Comrade Stalin of Gori

 

[BigRob]

"...In March or April 2007, three noncommissioned United States Army officers, including a first sergeant, a platoon sergeant and a senior medic, killed four Iraqi prisoners with pistol shots to the head as the men stood handcuffed and blindfolded beside a Baghdad canal, two of the soldiers said in sworn statements.

After the killings, the first sergeant — the senior noncommissioned officer of his Army company — told the other two to remove the men’s bloody blindfolds and plastic handcuffs, according to the statements made to Army investigators, which were obtained by The New York Times.

The statements and other court documents were provided by a person close to one of the soldiers in the unit who insisted on anonymity and who has an interest in the outcome of the legal proceedings.

After removing the blindfolds and handcuffs, the three soldiers shoved the four bodies into the canal, rejoined other members of their unit waiting in nearby vehicles and drove back to their combat outpost in southwest Baghdad, the statements said.

more at http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/27/w...ssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

Comrade Stalin of Gori

And if proved true, they will be jailed.

 

[The Scotsman]

And if proved true, they will be jailed.

Totally agree!



Stalin - whats the purpose of this post?



none presumably

 

[Libsmasher]

War crimes on all sides are a feature of every war. Eg, two american war crime incidents in WWII (from wiki):

Dachau war crimes:

U.S. soldiers, shocked at what they discovered in the concentration camp, shot and killed a number of German SS guards as they attempted to surrender, including the crew of the Tower B[3]. A group of four SS soldiers who having already surrendered to Lt. William P. Walsh were shot by him, and a soldier under his command, in a railway box car (see below: United States Army investigation. Walsh was outraged and shocked after seeing hundreds of dead bodies stuffed into a railway car. In another incident about twelve German POWs were shot and killed with another three or four wounded in a coal storage area. The Officers and soldiers involved pleaded that the prisoners were trying to escape, but the United States official investigation into the incident cast serious doubt on this defense.

Malmedy war crimes:

Martin Sorge states in his book The Other Price of Hitler's War that "It was in the wake of the Malmedy incident at Chegnogne that on New Year's Day 1945 some 60 German POWs were shot in cold blood by their American guards. The guilt went unpunished. It was felt that the basis for their action was orders that no prisoners were to be taken".[17][18] However, an official history promulgated by the United States government states that while "it is probable that Germans who attempted to surrender in the days immediately after the 17th ran a greater risk" of being killed than earlier in the year, even so, "there is no evidence... that American troops took advantage of orders, implicit or explicit, to kill their SS prisoners."[19] (See Chenogne massacre). Documentary film makers Ken Burns and Lynn Novick in their series "The War" alleged in episode 6 that 25 unarmed SS soldiers were killed in a Belgian village after they surrendered in the aftermath of the so-called Malmedy massacre. This killing has been reported by an eyewitnessing American soldier who was asked to be a member of the death squad but declined to do so.[20] Due to the lack of information it is not possible to assess whether this report is a relation of the Chenogne massacre or refers to another one.

 

[Popeye]

War crimes on all sides are a feature of every war. Eg, two american war crime incidents in WWII (from wiki):

Dachau war crimes:


Malmedy war crimes:

So that makes it ok? If we're such a moral country, war crimes are something that shouldn't be part of our record...at anytime anywhere.

Everybody old enough remembers clearly the outright massacre of 504 women, children and old men at My Lai during the Vietnam war.

Here's a couple pictures of the dirty work done by the US military at My Lai.

Would you like to defend that too? Maybe some more excuses?

 

[BigRob]

So that makes it ok? If we're such a moral country, war crimes are something that shouldn't be part of our record...at anytime anywhere.

Everybody old enough remembers clearly the outright massacre of 504 women, children and old men at My Lai during the Vietnam war.

Here's a couple pictures of the dirty work done by the US military at My Lai.

Would you like to defend that too? Maybe some more excuses?

This is one instance out of how many? The instances in Iraq that constituted some kind of abuse the soldiers were jailed after given a fair trial.

Also, still waiting for the apologies from the Congressmen and Senators (John Kerry etc.) who convicted the marines for a "massacre" in Iraq but have all been aquitted because there is no evidence.

 

[GenSeneca]

If we're such a moral country, war crimes are something that shouldn't be part of our record...at anytime anywhere.

Pure Utopian nonsense... Just an excuse to beat up on your own country.

Hey Pop, WHEN were we EVER a moral country in your opinion?

 

[Popeye]

This is one instance out of how many? The instances in Iraq that constituted some kind of abuse the soldiers were jailed after given a fair trial.

Also, still waiting for the apologies from the Congressmen and Senators (John Kerry etc.) who convicted the marines for a "massacre" in Iraq but have all been aquitted because there is no evidence.

Pure Utopian nonsense... Just an excuse to beat up on your own country.

Hey Pop, WHEN were we EVER a moral country in your opinion?

Both of you are quite simply attempting to justify war crimes, in this case the rape and murder of 504 civilians, most of them women and children. Sorry, but some things, no matter what country you're from, cannot be justified.

Soldiers went berserk, gunning down unarmed men, women, children and babies. Families which huddled together for safety in huts or bunkers were shown no mercy. Those who emerged with hands held high were murdered. ... Elsewhere in the village, other atrocities were in progress. Women were gang raped; Vietnamese who had bowed to greet the Americans were beaten with fists and tortured, clubbed with rifle butts and stabbed with bayonets. Some victims were mutilated with the signature "C Company" carved into the chest. By late morning word had got back to higher authorities and a cease-fire was ordered. My Lai was in a state of carnage. Bodies were strewn through the village

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai

 

[BigRob]

Both of you are quite simply attempting to justify war crimes, in this case the rape and murder of 504 civilians, most of them women and children. Sorry, but some things, no matter what country you're from, cannot be justified.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai

I condemn the My Lai Massacre. That said, this one instance is not the basis that America is going to be judged on, and if it is, it quite frankly shows an ignorance on the part of the judge.

 

[GenSeneca]

Both of you are quite simply attempting to justify war crimes, in this case the rape and murder of 504 civilians, most of them women and children. Sorry, but some things, no matter what country you're from, cannot be justified.

I'm not trying to justify war crimes... nice try though, that tactic is known as a Straw man: A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

There are crazy people who do crazy things and they deserve a punishment that fits the crime, with a little extra punishment for conduct unbecoming while wearing our nations uniform... Nothing we can do will ever eliminate such people from society, there will always be such examples, no matter how much hand wringing you do, there is no Utopia.

Now please, answer the question:

WHEN were we EVER a moral country in your opinion?

Can you answer that or not?

 

[Shadow]

There are crazy people who do crazy things

sounds like another lame excuse .... but just let another nation do what the US has done , in the INHUMANITARIAN arena and then listen to the US holler in indignation. The hypocrisy stinks so bad....... that those submerged in it know no other stench. and have become sensitized to it.


wouldn't worry about US bashing. As long as the US behaves the way it has over the last while ( since VN ) ......it is the norm.......and well deserved.

To watch how some spin things just to rationalize to themselves that THEIR horrors will be legally attended to.... is almost bizarre. The so called "punishment" the US troops get for their WAR CRIMES of inhumanith does not come anywhere near what it should. The US has the death penalty .......but is very selective on whom it is used. .......

 

[BigRob]

sounds like another lame excuse .... but just let another nation do what the US has done , in the INHUMANITARIAN arena and then listen to the US holler in indignation. The hypocrisy stinks so bad....... that those submerged in it know no other stench. and have become sensitized to it.


wouldn't worry about US bashing. As long as the US behaves the way it has over the last while ( since VN ) ......it is the norm.......and well deserved.

To watch how some spin things just to rationalize to themselves that THEIR horrors will be legally attended to.... is almost bizarre. The so called "punishment" the US troops get for their WAR CRIMES of inhumanith does not come anywhere near what it should. The US has the death penalty .......but is very selective on whom it is used. .......

Right, guilty until proven innocent right?

 

[GenSeneca]

sounds like another lame excuse .... but just let another nation do what the US has done , in the INHUMANITARIAN arena and then listen to the US holler in indignation. The hypocrisy stinks so bad....... that those submerged in it know no other stench. and have become sensitized to it.

Sounds like another Socialist rambling on about the evils of America. Please cite the specific policy or the specific orders given that resulted in the Mai-Lai massacre.

The Holocaust was official policy, what happened at Mai-Lai was not. I don't expect you to see the difference between the two incidents, and instincts tell me you don't even think the Holocaust was real, but I do expect you to have NOTHING nice to say about America - Unless of course we become a Communist nation... Then you might say we were "on the right path".

 

[Libsmasher]

So that makes it ok? If we're such a moral country, war crimes are something that shouldn't be part of our record...at anytime anywhere.

Everybody old enough remembers clearly the outright massacre of 504 women, children and old men at My Lai during the Vietnam war.

Here's a couple pictures of the dirty work done by the US military at My Lai.

Would you like to defend that too? Maybe some more excuses?

I didn't defend anything - stop your blatant lying. Are you capable of ANYTHING except lying?? The POINT was that war crimes have always happened in wartime and always will. The difference between the US and entities like the PRC, the islamofascists, and nazi germany is that they do it as a matter of >>>POLICY<<< - when it happens in the US army it's because one person or small group mentally snapped under the stress of combat. Claiming the "US military", rather than a few isolated US soldiers, is responsible for My Lai is just more of the defamation that for you, is like breathing is for normal people.

 

[Shadow]

Sounds like another Socialist rambling on about the evils of America. Please cite the specific policy or the specific orders given that resulted in the Mai-Lai massacre.

The Holocaust was official policy, what happened at Mai-Lai was not. I don't expect you to see the difference between the two incidents, and instincts tell me you don't even think the Holocaust was real, but I do expect you to have NOTHING nice to say about America - Unless of course we become a Communist nation... Then you might say we were "on the right path".

No offense, but are you always this silly?? It is one thing to criticize a nation........any nation.........but the pattern here seems to be bash the poster. Tsk Tsk. That must be because the US is deserving of a lot of criticism now.........and it is the "patriots" that live in fantasy world about how wonderful their nation is. Meanwhile the US continues to provoke , antagonize other nations as if THAT is the US policy.

Seems that there is a continuous recurring destructive pattern in the US conduct. Now, if THAT makes its population 'proud" of their dwelling, so be it. But along the way , it is creating a lot of victims , most of which are innocents and do NOT deserve to die or be maimed , or dislocated from THEIR country. The US is the AGGRESSOR not the victim, but to listen to it whine....... one would almost consider it was the other way around. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of them all the time. Still, the USG is doing a fairly good job of keeping its pop in the dark.........by feeding them continuous manure.


Vietnam Redux?? Possible to probable. and it is apparent the US cannot help itself. Habitual aggressor.????