U.S. infant mortality rate among worse

[palerider]

Does this not point to a problem of the availability of prenatal care? Do these other countries with lower infant mortality have a lower rate because of good prenatal (socialized) care?

It doesn't in DC and my bet would be that it doesn't apply in most of the rest of the country either. If one looks at the facts, one is left believing that the fact that black single mothers don't access prenatal care is due to a failure of the educational system. They simply don't understand the importance of prenatal care and no amount of public service announcements will get through to them because the subject matter is over their heads. We are talking about a group that has a high school dropout rate in the 70% range and you can bet that they didn't drop out because they were doing so well in school.

 

[palerider]

You continue to ignore a major factor, I previously mentioned, that is largely responsible for the breakup of the black family, the drug war. Look at these statistics. The proportion of jail imprisonment for blacks is five times higher than the rate for whites. African-American males comprise over 55% of the nation's prison population.
One out of 4 black males, ages 20-29, are either in prison, on parole, or on probation. Draconian drug laws have hit the black male population the hardest, it's just a form of institutionalized racism. Common sense will tell you that statistics such as those have influenced the success of black marriages. It's not easy being a father when you are just another statistic in the legal system.

You obviously don't know what the hell you are talking about. Let me ask you, have you ever observed a black community? I have. Let me tell you what I saw. This community consisted of about 900 apartment homes. Public housing. It worked like this. Few, if any, men actually lived in the public housing. For the most part, they didn't qualify because of the way welfare is set up, so the actual residents of the community were women and their fatherless children.

The men lived on the outside. They walked the streets, worked some odd jobs or simply sat on the low wall surrounding the community and talked to the women who passed by. They smoked and drank and had a great time. In the evening, the men left the wall and went into the community, I suppose to visit the women.

Where they lived, I don't really know. On the street perhaps, in small apartments that they could afford on odd jobs? I am not sure. For the most part, they simply orbited around the community.

The women didn't work and from what I saw, didn't spend much time tending the children. The male chidren played within the community for the most part until they reached puberty. Then they began to move towards the wall and the men where they presumably learned how to be men and eventually took their place among the men.

The girls played within the community for the most part until they reached the age of puberty at which time, they would meet a man or two who resided at the wall and get knocked up at which time, they would leave their mother's home and take up residence in their own apartment within the community and neglect their own children and continue the cycle.

The men had no responsibilities to tie them down, so one could only expect irresponsible behavior on their part. You blame the drug war, but what one must really ask, is why weren't the majority of black men working and supporting their families as was the case with the majority of white men. You must ask why it was that the minority of white men and the majority of black men got caught up in the drug war. The answer is obvious. The black men had loads of free time on thier hands because they weren't responsible for providing for families because the welfare state had relieved them of that responsibility and not replaced that activity with something at least as productive. They were essentially cut off from any real belonging to community and set adrift. Exactly what would you expect to happen to them given the circumstances they were handed?

The method UNICEF used to arrive at infant mortality rates is not flawed. They've made it clear, in arriving at their conclusions, that they have allowed for the difference in methods each individual country uses. To claim those figures have been "manipulated", has no basis in fact. If the US ranked near the top in IMRs, you would be touting that as an argument against "socialized medicine".

You amaze me. Of course unicef "says" that their methods account for differences in reporting but I saw nothing there by way of description of their methodology. I am asking how they disregard what is written on a death certificate and determine that a child was or was not stillborn. They admit that their numbers are at best estimates, but they don't go into what the estimates are based on at all.

And I don't need to tout out IMR's to show how inneffective socialized medicine is so long as our survival rates for cancer, heart disease, kidney disease, liver disease etc., blow away survival rates from nations with socialized medicine. Survival rates are the measure for the effectiveness of a medical system and I point out again that no nation on earth can touch us in the one set of numbers that actually matter.

 

[Coyote]

It doesn't in DC and my bet would be that it doesn't apply in most of the rest of the country either. If one looks at the facts, one is left believing that the fact that black single mothers don't access prenatal care is due to a failure of the educational system. They simply don't understand the importance of prenatal care and no amount of public service announcements will get through to them because the subject matter is over their heads. We are talking about a group that has a high school dropout rate in the 70% range and you can bet that they didn't drop out because they were doing so well in school.

I agree with you actually....in what you say about education. Yet somehow - other countries are reaching their poor populations (and some of them have significant immigrant communities that are poor and not necessarily educated well) - and getting them into pre-natal programs. What accounts for this?

 

[Coyote]

I think you're observations of a "black community" are inaccurate. You are describing a "black community living in public housing". In fact, they have far more in common with other public housing inhabitants then say a middle class black community.

Also, American black families have long had problems and some of this can be traced to a legacy of slavery, the forced breaking up of families and a heavy reliance on the woman too keep the family together and be the head of the family. This is still reflected in the culture today but is absent in black immigrant cultures.

 

[palerider]

I agree with you actually....in what you say about education. Yet somehow - other countries are reaching their poor populations (and some of them have significant immigrant communities that are poor and not necessarily educated well) - and getting them into pre-natal programs. What accounts for this?

In socialist countries, citizens may be, and are, ordered into healthcare facilities and programs.

 

[palerider]

I think you're observations of a "black community" are inaccurate. You are describing a "black community living in public housing". In fact, they have far more in common with other public housing inhabitants then say a middle class black community.

I worked in a laboratory for over a decade that was located on the 20th floor of a building that overlooked a black community. The public housing was central and extended into private housing for about 8 blocks in 3 directions. I saw what I saw and it was obvious to anyone who cared to look, why black men were always in trouble for one thing or another. They had nothing but time on their hands and little if any responsibilities. That is a recipe for trouble.

Also, American black families have long had problems and some of this can be traced to a legacy of slavery, the forced breaking up of families and a heavy reliance on the woman too keep the family together and be the head of the family. This is still reflected in the culture today but is absent in black immigrant cultures.

That is a load of hooey. First, few blacks today can even trace their ancestry back 3 generations, much less back to slavery. I remember the minor hoopla when opra set out to find her slave roots and discovered that she didn't have any.

Tell me, where are your ancestors from? I know where mine come from, but none of the ways of living from their particular part of the world have worked their way into my life. How about you? How much of the way you live your life is relative to, and dictated by the way your ancestors of nearly 200 years ago lived theirs.

If the black community is ever going to grow up and start behaving in a responsible manner, the left is simply going to have to stop making excuses for them. The woman didn't keep the family together during slavery days, the slave owner did and he said who was family and who wasnt. The whole cultural identity of black women being heads of families and keeping them together is a result of a welfare system that replaced the man with a government check every month. Not slavery. And the generally irresponsible behavior of black men is also due to a system that relieved them of the responsibility of providing for a family and left them with nothing but time on their hands.

 

[Popeye]

I worked in a laboratory for over a decade that was located on the 20th floor of a building that overlooked a black community. The public housing was central and extended into private housing for about 8 blocks in 3 directions. I saw what I saw and it was obvious to anyone who cared to look, why black men were always in trouble for one thing or another. They had nothing but time on their hands and little if any responsibilities. That is a recipe for trouble.

Public housing, and the area that surrounds it, are generally poor and have a high crime rate. How is that indicative of the entire black population? Believe or not, there are blacks who don't, live in public housing, drink beer and do drugs all day, or receive money only from the government.

If the black community is ever going to grow up and start behaving in a responsible manner, the left is simply going to have to stop making excuses for them. The woman didn't keep the family together during slavery days, the slave owner did and he said who was family and who wasnt. The whole cultural identity of black women being heads of families and keeping them together is a result of a welfare system that replaced the man with a government check every month. Not slavery. And the generally irresponsible behavior of black men is also due to a system that relieved them of the responsibility of providing for a family and left them with nothing but time on their hands.

What "excuses"? slavery? Jim Crow? institutionalized racism? It's all real, it all happened, and forms of racism still exist. Just for example, the disproportionate sentences given black defendants as opposed to whites. The average sentence for a federal drug offender, for the same crime, is 49% higher for blacks than whites. Things like that aren't excuses, they're facts, and it's today's racism.

 

[PLC1]

The answer to the cost of our medical care is simple. We once had it and modern liberalism lost it for us. When I was young, my parents carried insurance that was called major medical which covered treatement that required a hospital stay or very expensive care (defined in the policy) and paid the day to day stuff out of their pockets just like everyone else at the time.

If we carried medical insurance to cover catastrophic costs and paid minor medical bills out of our pockets, the cost would fall rapidly. In fact, there is a growing body of doctors who no longer accept insurance for office visits. The result, is that they get out of the bloated bureaucracy and the patients get an office visit that costs between $25 and $40 dollars, and blood work that costs about $15.

My health care is covered by what is known as a medical savings account. I pay a few hundred dollars per year for an insurance policy that covers catastrophic costs, and the money that I would be paying for HMO type coverage (my share of medical coverage through my employer) goes into a medical savings account. I draw on that money for office visits and routine medical care.

I earn interest on that money rather than simply lose it to an insurance company. I have been handling my medical coverage like that for the past 30 years. Long before anyone had ever heard of the term "medical savings account". Over the years, the amount of money I have had to pay out in routine coverage has not even come close to the amount I would have been paying for HMO or PPO type insurance. My medical savings account now amounts to a couple of hundred thousand dollars. When I reach age 65, I go on medicare and that money is mine as opposed to the money you are paying for whatever insurance you have and will have until you reach retirement age.

When you have a systen in which insurance pays for everything, increasing prices are inevetable. You have to pay the bureaucracy that runs the system and the bureaucracy in insurance is no different that any other. It eats the bulk of money coming in simply supporting itself. Did you know that only about a quarter of every tax dollar you pay actually gets past the bureaucracy and actually pays for whatever government services you believe you are paying for? Exactly the same is true for insurance.

Here is an opportunity to use your brain a bit. How much do you believe your auto insurance would cost if it covered oil changes, car washes, new tires, tire rotations, tune ups, etc., etc., etc., rather than just personal injury and property damage? Your car insurance would cost as much or more than your medical insurance.

Would such a system work the same for everyone? Of course not, but then there is no system that works for everyone. A system such as I have described, however, would work for the vast majority and force medical costs down to a manageable level so that those who need help would not be nearly the sort of burden on our resources that they are now.

Socialism in any form is not the answer to any question unless the question is "how can we create dependence?"

I'm glad to hear that the medical savings account works for you. It probably wouldn't work for everyone, because the medical providers bill at least triple what they expect to get from the insurance company. If you don't have insurance, then you don't pay the pre negotiated price, but whatever the provider chooses to bill. I've received EOMB (Explaination of Medical Benefits) papers that showed the amount billed to have been over $2,000, the amount paid by the insurance company to be around $700, and my charge less than $100. If I didn't have insurance, then I would have been stuck with the entire $2 grand.

Nevertheless, should we go to a medical savings account, and a major medical to cover disasters, that is to say, if such a system were to become the norm, then the providers would not have to bill triple what they expect to get. No longer would we be playing games with the insurance company as we do now. Insurance providers would howl and moan and spend a pile of advertising dollars to convince us we were going the wrong way, of course.

But such a system would be very different from what we have today. Remember, my argument was not that we need socialized medicine, but that we need to change and streamline our delivery of medical care before it bankrupts us.

I am not for "Hillarycare", BTW. I'm also against continuing to pay 17% of our GDP for medical care. No other advanced nation pays close to that amount.

Now, regarding your post about how medical care is the best in this country, do you have any facts to back that up? I hear it said, but no one seems able to prove it. In fact, I think I'll take the word of the WHO over yours, or anyone else's on this forum.

 

[Coyote]

I worked in a laboratory for over a decade that was located on the 20th floor of a building that overlooked a black community. The public housing was central and extended into private housing for about 8 blocks in 3 directions. I saw what I saw and it was obvious to anyone who cared to look, why black men were always in trouble for one thing or another. They had nothing but time on their hands and little if any responsibilities. That is a recipe for trouble.

You're taking your observations of one community, in one city and generalizing it into all black communities. You should know that's a totally inaccurate sampling for starters.

That is a load of hooey. First, few blacks today can even trace their ancestry back 3 generations, much less back to slavery. I remember the minor hoopla when opra set out to find her slave roots and discovered that she didn't have any.

No, it's only a load of hooey if it's used as an excuse for not trying. But consider - culture is passed down via the family first and foremost. African-Americans who's families immigrated from Africa or the Caribbean or other countries don't seem to have this great a problem.

However....I'd also like to see what data shows on the following:
- does poverty in general lead to broken or single parent families rather than poverty in one particular racial group? Obviously single parenthood puts one at greater risk, and children of teenage mothers frequently become teenage mothers themselves thus perpetuating the cycle. This cycle is evident in poor white Appalachia as well. If so...then the legacy of slavery could be just one more mitigating factor increasing the odds.

Now Opra is interesting...so she doesn't have slave roots...she is also a hell of a successful woman - on her own merits. She kind of makes my point here...

Tell me, where are your ancestors from? I know where mine come from, but none of the ways of living from their particular part of the world have worked their way into my life. How about you? How much of the way you live your life is relative to, and dictated by the way your ancestors of nearly 200 years ago lived theirs.

We learn our communicating, parenting and social skills from our parents and they from their parents. Why do you think children of alcoholics often end up marrying alcoholics (not that their drawn to alcoholics, but the personality factors) - or children raised in abusive households often end up abusive in turn? It's learned behavior passed down from generation to generation. It can be tough to break - you need a degree of insight, education, determination - but without insight, it's impossible.

If the black community is ever going to grow up and start behaving in a responsible manner, the left is simply going to have to stop making excuses for them.

And the right is going to have to recognize that there are complex social and economic factors playing in to this. I agree - no excuses - but, in the process address the REAL problems too: crime, drugs, poor education, violence that go hand in hand with living in impoverished areas as well as the markedly higher incarceration rates for black men vs. white men committing crimes. There's a responsibility of the black community to recognize that it has to do something to uplift itself but there's a responsibility of the greater community surrounding it to recognize that not all of the problems are the fault of the "black community".

The woman didn't keep the family together during slavery days, the slave owner did and he said who was family and who wasnt. The whole cultural identity of black women being heads of families and keeping them together is a result of a welfare system that replaced the man with a government check every month. Not slavery. And the generally irresponsible behavior of black men is also due to a system that relieved them of the responsibility of providing for a family and left them with nothing but time on their hands.

I disagree. The slaveowner may have been the one that kept the family together but the woman was the defacto head of the family and the one stable element in it - the woman provided the only family continuity. Welfare had nothing to do with it.

 

[Coyote]

In socialist countries, citizens may be, and are, ordered into healthcare facilities and programs.

I have never heard of that in countries with socialized medicine like the Scandinavian countries, Canada, Australia....do you have any data to support this?

 

[Coyote]

What "excuses"? slavery? Jim Crow? institutionalized racism? It's all real, it all happened, and forms of racism still exist. Just for example, the disproportionate sentences given black defendants as opposed to whites. The average sentence for a federal drug offender, for the same crime, is 49% higher for blacks than whites. Things like that aren't excuses, they're facts, and it's today's racism.

Add to that a black person is more likely to have his case remanded to the death penalty then a white person committing a similar crime, particularly if the victim is also white.

 

[palerider]

Public housing, and the area that surrounds it, are generally poor and have a high crime rate. How is that indicative of the entire black population? Believe or not, there are blacks who don't, live in public housing, drink beer and do drugs all day, or receive money only from the government.

No kidding? I guess that would explain my next door neighbors although next door in my neighborhood is about a quarter of a mile away. My neighbors, however, and the growing segment of the middle class that they represent do not represent the majority of the black community. They represent a minority of the black community that has broken away from the culture and are seen by the majority as sell out uncle toms.

What "excuses"? slavery? Jim Crow? institutionalized racism? It's all real, it all happened, and forms of racism still exist. Just for example, the disproportionate sentences given black defendants as opposed to whites. The average sentence for a federal drug offender, for the same crime, is 49% higher for blacks than whites. Things like that aren't excuses, they're facts, and it's today's racism.

And it is your particular brand of "kind hearted" racism that has dragged the black community down to the level it is, and it is your particular brand of "kind hearted" racism that has an iron boot on their necks, and it is your brand of "kind hearted" racism that is the reason that those that are moving up are, sadly, in the minority.

 

[palerider]

I've received EOMB (Explaination of Medical Benefits) papers that showed the amount billed to have been over $2,000, the amount paid by the insurance company to be around $700, and my charge less than $100. If I didn't have insurance, then I would have been stuck with the entire $2 grand.

Are you saying that if you didn't have your hmo or ppo type insurance and you knew that you were likely to have to pay the bill out of your own pocket that you would not have asked how much the proceedure was going to cost up front? And if the cost seemed to be excessive that you would not have perhaps called around to see if that price was the norm or was indeed somewhat high?

Competition is absolutely required to keep prices down. Insurance companies have removed competition from the medical practice. The only competition that exists any more is competition between insurance companies for policy dollars.

As I said, there is a growing body of doctors who have completely opted out of the insurance game and they bill a small fraction of what doctors who still accept insurance bill for the same service. Review your history. Prior to about 1979, there was no hmo or ppo system in the US, people paid for routine medical expenses out of their pockets and absolutely no one, left or right disputed the fact that the finest medical care in the world was to be found in the USA.

Now, regarding your post about how medical care is the best in this country, do you have any facts to back that up? I hear it said, but no one seems able to prove it. In fact, I think I'll take the word of the WHO over yours, or anyone else's on this forum.

You demonstrate perfectly the problem with "taking the word" of anyone rather than finding out for yourself. Here is a graph from the telegraph that reported on an article from the lancet that described the survival rates of cancer patients. This chart reflects the overall survival rates. When it is broken down by cancer as is the case in medical periodicals, the survival rate in the US vs the socialized world stands out in high relief. The same can be said for heart disease, kidney disease, liver disease and any other conditions that require high end treatments.

There are a couple of exceptions that do come close to us in overall survival rates (although statistically more than 1% improved survival rate is quite signifigant) and they are obvious on the chart. They achieve the rates they do because it has been found that the culture of the general population is such that they don't abuse the medical service simply because they don't have to pay for it directly. They simply don't go to the doctor for minor aches, pains, and sniffles and as a result, don't tax their resources beyond the breaking point. Their survival rates aren't the result of great medicine, they are the result of not abusing the system so that when they need care, they don't have to be put on as long a list as in the other socialized countries.

The state of our medical care is in large part, a result of people abusing the system. They get insurance and it's off to the races. People go to the doctor even when they don't need to in order to get a note excusing them from work. Socialized medicine in the US would be a disaster because such a large segment of the population would abuse the system and use up resources that genuinely sick people needed.

If you want to fix our system, you are simply going to have to make each of us financially responsible for the bulk of our own medical care and only rely on insurance for major occurences.

Here is the chart from the study. Similar results are out there for heart disease, kidney disease liver disease, etc. The fact, plci is that if you are sick, you have a better chance of getting better, and get better more quickly in the US. The infant mortality figures simply don't reflect the truth. They are the only figures used by those pushing for socialized medicine because they are the only ones that can be easily manipulated to place socialized medical systems in a good light.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/08/21/ncancer121.gif

 

[palerider]

No, it's only a load of hooey if it's used as an excuse for not trying. But consider - culture is passed down via the family first and foremost. African-Americans who's families immigrated from Africa or the Caribbean or other countries don't seem to have this great a problem.

It is a load of hooey period. Slavery, jim crow laws (an invention of democrats by the way) etc are simply not excuses for anything today. Perhaps the most elderly blacks could claim such as an exucse for not succeeding in their youth, but it simply doesn't fly now and hasn't flown for decades. Your observation that blacks from other countries don't have problems here is evidence enough that the color of your skin isn't an impediment to success. The welfare system has created a culture that believes it is "owed" something , an entitlement mentality, and until that culture is gone, the american black community as a whole is not going to advance.

However....I'd also like to see what data shows on the following:
- does poverty in general lead to broken or single parent families rather than poverty in one particular racial group? Obviously single parenthood puts one at greater risk, and children of teenage mothers frequently become teenage mothers themselves thus perpetuating the cycle. This cycle is evident in poor white Appalachia as well. If so...then the legacy of slavery could be just one more mitigating factor increasing the odds.

Refer to history coyote. The black family was as strong as the white family until the emergence of the welfare state in the 1960's. Amd whites also get caught up in the welfare cycle. Since we are the majority, however, a percentage getting caught up in the system and becoming generationally dependent doesn't have the effect on us as a community as it does with blacks who are a minority.

Now Opra is interesting...so she doesn't have slave roots...she is also a hell of a successful woman - on her own merits. She kind of makes my point here..

I don't see how. She has demonstrated that slavery, jim crowe laws, etc etc etc have had exactly zero power to keep her from becoming successful. She has demonstrated that the history of blacks in this country is exactly that, history, and the only power it has over individuals today is the power they give it.

We learn our communicating, parenting and social skills from our parents and they from their parents. Why do you think children of alcoholics often end up marrying alcoholics (not that their drawn to alcoholics, but the personality factors) - or children raised in abusive households often end up abusive in turn? It's learned behavior passed down from generation to generation. It can be tough to break - you need a degree of insight, education, determination - but without insight, it's impossible.

Again. Until the emergence of the welfare state, the black family was as strong as the white family. They got married, had children, and taught those chidren the value of family. If anything, their poverty made their families and communities stronger because the depended upon each other for support to a greater degree than whites did. The change came when the welfare state came along and created a situation in which uncle sam provided the money if the women had children but didn't marry. Within a generation or two, and entirely different "family value" was being taught to the children.

And the right is going to have to recognize that there are complex social and economic factors playing in to this. I agree - no excuses - but, in the process address the REAL problems too: crime, drugs, poor education, violence that go hand in hand with living in impoverished areas as well as the markedly higher incarceration rates for black men vs. white men committing crimes. There's a responsibility of the black community to recognize that it has to do something to uplift itself but there's a responsibility of the greater community surrounding it to recognize that not all of the problems are the fault of the "black community".

I do recognize the complex social issues. I also recognize the source of those issues. It is the left that needs to recognize the same and accept the responsibility for creating the situation as it exists now.

I disagree. The slaveowner may have been the one that kept the family together but the woman was the defacto head of the family and the one stable element in it - the woman provided the only family continuity. Welfare had nothing to do with it.

Once more coyote, until the emergence of the welfare state, the black family was strong. Poor but strong. The welfare state changed that when it replaced the men with a government check.

 

[palerider]

I have never heard of that in countries with socialized medicine like the Scandinavian countries, Canada, Australia....do you have any data to support this?

Only blips from medical journals that speak to notices sent out by government to get flu shots, visit the dentist, show up for an appointment etc., which doctors and clinics send out now but apparently don't have the impact as a notice from the government would have.