This Iraq war is pointless

[vyo476]

Because they've become one of our most important trading partners. I forget where I saw it, but I came across a book recently that outlined how Vietnam was America's most successful foreign policy endeavor. I don't really agree with this, but it's an interesting contention.

That is interesting. If I weren't so swamped in work I'd probably make an effort to track that book down because now I'm curious as hell.

Do you think hell is curious...?

 

[Dave]

South Korea still has major issues today; they still have an opressive government. And while South Korea might be able to handle North Korea the majority of the threat was always posed by China.

My point is that Iraq was in no danger of being overrun by Islamic fundamentalists before we invaded. The 4 years after German occupation looked bleak because of the Russian situation including the Berlin Blockade. Which was created by an outside threat as I mentioned. It was not the result of a division in the German people.

And as I remember it Saddam was convicted on the torture of 148 people and the arrest of 400 others. Which is probably less then those that our own administration has tortured and illegally incarcerated. Also surpression of the Dawa party following the assassination attempt. In reality the intelligence told Saddam that these people were rebels who sought and attempted to overthrow his rule. (Not well known is the fact that he believed they had weapons of mass destruction).

The reality is that for the majority of the Iraqi people the war has done nothing to benefit their lives. As such they have no motivation to work towards an American victory.

Again I say that Germany and South Korea are cases that cannot be compared to Iraq. The entirity of the set-up in those situations were completely different. Korea had been invaded by a foreign nation and we drove them out. Germany was the loser of a war that they themselves had started. The place where problems arise is that Iraq was a stable and functioning country under international sanctions. In the eyes of Iraqis the international community had already tied the countries hands behind its back. And our "pre-emptive" invasion is still difficult for many people to accept. The Iraqis are still as confused about the cause for the war as I am.

You completely missed my point. Of course no situation is going to be exactly the same as another. My point is that during the early parts stages of occupations, neither Germany nor South Korea looked like it would be a success, but today they are successes. I'm sure that 50 years ago you would be saying that you can't compare Germany to South Korea because South Korea doesn't have Russians occupying half of their territory. All I was saying is that these things have always taken time. Maybe it will take more time, maybe it will take less, but these things do work.

 

[jickybob]

This is very simple. We should not just one day say "Everybody, Let's go! There's no reason for us to be here!" Basically, that's like a kid going up and kicking a bully in the knee joint from behind, then just walking off non-chalantly as if nothing happened and just assume the bully isn't going to retaliate and come and kick the kids butt for kicking him from behind. Basically, we have gotten ourselves into this war and now we must finish it. Why start something and not finish it? It makes common sense to finish what we have started! And, many many times I have read "Massacre" used, but the fact of the matter is this war has been a great success as far as deaths go! It has gone on now for, as quoted in previous posts, 5-6 years and look at the death counts... Then, once u know the death count for this war, go and check the death counts of other wars... Not bad, eh? And, one last thing... It says nowhere in the Bible that suicide leads to hell! I don't know where u all are getting this but it's not in the Bible! If I am wrong, prove me wrong! We should stay in this war and finish what we have started, and I am sure all these muslims are getting quite the surpise as they die as martors and don't find their 72 or whatever virgins, rather demons whom are ready to have a good time with them as they all burn!

 

[TheWaffle]

You completely missed my point. Of course no situation is going to be exactly the same as another. My point is that during the early parts stages of occupations, neither Germany nor South Korea looked like it would be a success, but today they are successes. I'm sure that 50 years ago you would be saying that you can't compare Germany to South Korea because South Korea doesn't have Russians occupying half of their territory. All I was saying is that these things have always taken time. Maybe it will take more time, maybe it will take less, but these things do work.

Reconstruction in Germany, again, only looked bleak because of relations with Russia. Otherwise the rebuilding process worked fine.

The question is not whether or not it will take more time. It is obvious that Iraq will require years more if we want to rebuild it as we did in those other nations. We've already spent 420 billion dollars in Iraq. How much is that going to cost us to finish the job, and how many more lives. With that money we could have insured the entirety of America who is without health insurance, with that money we could have fixed our broken educational system. There are millions of ways that the money could have been better spent. Even just throwing it at the national debt would have been better (or not borrowing the money in the first place). I hate to make the Vietnam comparison because I don't believe it's accurate, however I think that we need to seriously evaluate what is in the best interest of our country. But after how we abandoned Afghanistan and how to the Middle East Iraq looked like an arbitrary invasion I don't think there's any way out of this for us. I just hope that at the very least this becomes a lesson to the future of our nation.

 

[DemocratLupis]

two relatively peaceful nations?!?!

Afrganistan, Pakistan are not peaceful they're at war with one another

 

[ArmChair General]

You completely missed my point. Of course no situation is going to be exactly the same as another. My point is that during the early parts stages of occupations, neither Germany nor South Korea looked like it would be a success, but today they are successes. I'm sure that 50 years ago you would be saying that you can't compare Germany to South Korea because South Korea doesn't have Russians occupying half of their territory. All I was saying is that these things have always taken time. Maybe it will take more time, maybe it will take less, but these things do work.

lay off the kool aid.

 

[DemocratLupis]

You should read the bill that is the so-called 'War-authorization' it doesnt exactly allow invasion on false pretenses or an occupation. It does say that as a last resort, after all diplomacy has failed and there is imminent danger, an intervention is authorized. Big difference! yea no kidding !
Also according to the Constitution, Congress declares and Congress ends war, Bush is only the Commander in Chief, not the Emperor...
very true at that !

 

[ArmChair General]

I can't believe you people. First you jump around like Alabama cheerleaders for a war in Iraq, then you turn chicken**** once we lose a few soldiers in the occupation.

What the Hell did you think was gonna happen? The Iraqis were gonna fall in love with an occupying army? "Oh thank you for blowing up our power plants and water supply! Allah be praised, now we have democracy!"

 

[9sublime]

What a forum we have. We've got the resident right wing mentalist and Roker the toker. This is a real gem. Palerider seems such a well balanced individual now this sadact is here.

 

[ArmChair General]

Truth is, this occupation isn't going that badly. We're losing a man a day, more or less. That's not bad. That's just the way these things go. The British used to lose a few dozen men a day when they ran the world.

Hell, when they tried to take Afghanistan they lost a whole army. But they didn't lose their nerve and start sobbing to the pollsters. They knew it takes blood to run an empire. Even when their wars went bad, like the Boer War - and that was about as bad as it can get - they stuck with it, kept pouring in men and materiel and won. Along the way they had to do some grim stuff. Like concentration camps. Hell yes, you think Hitler invented the concentration camp? No way Jose.

Concentration camps were invented by the British for the Boer War.

If you want to know what kind of coldblooded hardass discipline it takes to run an empire, the Boer War is a good place to start.

 

[vyo476]

What a forum we have. We've got the resident right wing mentalist and Roker the toker. This is a real gem. Palerider seems such a well balanced individual now this sadact is here.

Ouch. And yes. And ouch again.

 

[ArmChair General]

What the Brits would be doing about now is arming the Kurds and sending them to police the Sunni Triangle. The Kurds have already asked us to let them do it. They're begging for the chance to get a little payback. They said, "We guarantee we'll have the place pacified in a week. We can read these people! You can't! We can tell who's a guerrilla and who isn't! All we need is a few fingernail-pulling pliers and a portable generator hooked up to a cattle prod or two!"

Of course we won't let them, because it'd be messy, like Sabra-Shattila times ten. There'd be dead Sunnis thicker than sagebrush. But the Brits'd do it, and it'd work. Then, when the Kurds had bled the Sunnis out, they'd recruit a new police force, all Sunni and all-volunteer, to go police Kurdistan, bleed the Kurds for a while so they don't get too strong.

That's the sort of thing you have to do if you want to run an empire. But you guys, you're just brave enough to get us into trouble and not brave enough to see it through. You want to kick ass, plant the flag on somebody else's land and blow stuff up, and then have everybody on the ground love you for it.

That's not an empire. That's a bedtime story for pussies.

 

[vyo476]

What the Brits would be doing about now is arming the Kurds and sending them to police the Sunni Triangle. The Kurds have already asked us to let them do it. They're begging for the chance to get a little payback. They said, "We guarantee we'll have the place pacified in a week. We can read these people! You can't! We can tell who's a guerrilla and who isn't! All we need is a few fingernail-pulling pliers and a portable generator hooked up to a cattle prod or two!"

Of course we won't let them, because it'd be messy, like Sabra-Shattila times ten. There'd be dead Sunnis thicker than sagebrush. But the Brits'd do it, and it'd work. Then, when the Kurds had bled the Sunnis out, they'd recruit a new police force, all Sunni and all-volunteer, to go police Kurdistan, bleed the Kurds for a while so they don't get too strong.

That's the sort of thing you have to do if you want to run an empire. But you guys, you're just brave enough to get us into trouble and not brave enough to see it through. You want to kick ass, plant the flag on somebody else's land and blow stuff up, and then have everybody on the ground love you for it.

That's not an empire. That's a bedtime story for pussies.

And what, exactly, would you have to say to your senator or representative if your government pulled this kind of thing on you? "Do unto others as you would do to yourself."

 

[9sublime]

You want to kick ass, plant the flag on somebody else's land and blow stuff up, and then have everybody on the ground love you for it.

Well, I don't, and I don't think anyone here wants to get Americas glory on your level.

 

[ArmChair General]

And what, exactly, would you have to say to your senator or representative if your government pulled this kind of thing on you? "Do unto others as you would do to yourself."

WTF? do unto? what the hell. Do I look like jane fonda?

Im talking about winning the goddamn war son. Get your head out of your ass.

http://english.aljazeera.net/nr/exeres/f0715269-dcc3-4164-823e-b5d25d02e066.htm

"An Iraqi general, speaking on condition of anonymity, said a unit of the Iraqi army, composed mainly of Kurds, would be sent into Sadr City.

"The general said Kurds, who are Sunni but not Arab, would make up the unit because soldiers from other Iraqi units were likely to refuse to fight fellow Shia."

I've been suggesting that strategy for three years now, but hey, better too late than never. Now I'll just sit back and wait for Bush to cut me a royalty check from his new $700 billion war budget. Yeah, sure.