The zero sum game..

cashmcall

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Jan 23, 2012
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You know in my opinion,the worst thing that our commander and chief has done internationally is what he and the liberals have done domestically. He sent a message to America in his re-election campaign. Therefore HE sent a message to the world. The message is that we live in a zero-sum universe....​
There is a fixed amount of good things.I read .... Life is a pizza. If some people have too many slices, other people have to eat the pizza box. He had no answer to Mitt Romney’s argument for more pizza parlors baking more pizzas. The solution to our problems, HE said, is redistribution of the pizzas we’ve got—with low-cost, government-subsidized pepperoni somehow materializing as the result of higher taxes on pizza-parlor owners.​
In this zero-sum universe there is only so much happiness. The idea is that if we wipe the smile off the faces of people with prosperous businesses and successful careers, that will make the rest of us grin....​
There is only so much money. The people who have money are hogging it. The way for the rest of us to get money is to turn the hogs into bacon....​
His entire campaign platform was redistribution. Take from the rich and give to the . . . Well, actually, HE didn’t mention the poor. What he talked and talked about was the middle class, something most well-off Americans consider themselves to be members of. So your plan is to take from the more rich and the more or less rich and give to the less rich, more or less. It is as if Robin Hood stole treasure from the Sheriff of Nottingham and bestowed it on the Deputy Sheriff....​
But never mind. The bad and worst sides of zero-sum thinking and redistributive politics has nothing to do with which things are taken or to whom those things are given or what the sum of zero things is supposed to be. The evil lies in denying people the right, the means, and indeed, the duty to make more things.....And in all of his policies, that’s exactly what he does.​
 
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not to start a whole 'nother argument here, but 2 things you need to realize:

1) There is only so much wealth in the world. This is not liberal claptrap, it's a basic fact. There are only so many gallons of oil, there are only so many acres of corn fields, wheat fields, etc. There is only so much energy that we can produce every year. Wealth, REAL wealth, comes from real resources. So Obama's basic statement (at least from what I'm getting from you since I didn't listen to his speech) is correct. There is only SO much wealth, and if you want a healthy society, that wealth needs to be fairly equally distributed. I'm not saying we need socialism to do so, I'm just saying, if you want a healthy system, it needs to be balanced. Make it lopsided so that a few people have a lot of the wealth, and you've got a problem. Forget capitalism, free markets, communism, whatever. The minute a bunch of people are struggling to survive, they're going to beat the shit out of those who have more than they need. You can argue all you want and it's not going to stop someone from coming at you with a gun or club. So it is in the best interest of EVERYONE, the rich included, to make sure there's enough to go around for everyone. Which is not happening, and that's why we're headed, sooner or later, for some violent revolution. At that point, no one's going to care what stupid philosophies you believed in, because the only one that will matter will be brute force. It's sad that it has to come to that, but it will, as it always does. History has proven this.

2) Obama can talk all he wants about redistribution, but he's full of shit, and he knows it. His speeches may seem idealistic and "liberal" and whatever else you want to say, but don't worry, it's just hot air. His actions paint a much clearer picture, one grounded in the wall street oligarchy. So don't you worry, his words have already been forgotten as you read my own.
 
I didn't listen to his speach...you said... wealth needs to be fairly equally distributed. I'm not saying we need socialism to do so, I'm just saying, if you want a healthy system, it needs to be balanced.. Make it lopsided so that a few people have a lot of the wealth, and you've got a problem.."IMO that is what your saying"... … one thing is true that at any point most of these low income people and now the ones on unemployment could have taken concrete actions to change their path — and some of them bear a moral responsibility for their failure to act — but it’s also true that our government has relentlessly incentivized every step of their deterioration, all in the name of compassion. Even worse, by providing such generous benefits with no meaningful strings attached, we’ve also essentially immunized thim against the kind of assistance that they truly need — the “tough love” that demands that a man do what he can to help himself through productive work.
The result? Another statistic. Another father who is no longer a role model for his children. Another sadly shortened lifetime’s worth of money (some borrowed from China) paid to sustain a lifestyle not good enough to enjoy and not tough enough to leave. Now I am not talikng about everyone..but there are a lot of them...

There’s nothing compassionate about this. And I don’t even believe that the intentions are good.
 
bobby..one more thing..if you think Obama is just talking out his ass..Remember this is a guy who won a presidential election with his RECORD..I will never under estimate this guy...
 
The problem with these ideas is that they're never going to be provable one way or another, so they remain convenient for those that want to believe them without ever really testing their true objective nature. Yes, there will always be SOME people who are taking the easy way out and living off welfare, blah blah blah. But the amount of people that actually have such a low self-esteem and drive that they are literally unwilling to do nothing is tiny compared to most people in low income situations, who work hard, long hours and just happen to be unskilled and uneducated enough to ever be good at something that will earn them more money. They're working full time, probably harder than you and me, they just get paid shit for it. And this number keeps rising since our economy shit the bed; the "welfare mother" stereotype becomes more and more a ridiculous fantasy of the 80's republicans with every passing year.

What's not a fantasy but a hard, provable fact, is the income distribution in this country. Here is a fascinating, hard-fact report on wealth distribution over the past several decades, based on pure numbers:
http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

you will note how clearly it shows that the bottom 80% have only 11% of the country's net worth, while the top 1% has over a third. And a hundred more fascinating statistics, such as the fact that the top 1% do not pay the highest percentage of their taxes as so many people would like to claim / think.

Regardless of whether you think this is "the way it should be" or not, the fact is, once enough people find themselves not getting enough, they're going to fight back. So for the good of everyone, including the rich and middle class, it is in their best interest to NOT hog the wealth; to create an economic system that keeps things balanced. I'm not advocating socialism. I'm simply telling you the reality of the situation. Free market, communism, whatever you want; the minute it stops meeting the needs of the people, that's the minute people start dismantling it.
 
not to start a whole 'nother argument here, but 2 things you need to realize:

1) There is only so much wealth in the world. This is not liberal claptrap, it's a basic fact. There are only so many gallons of oil, there are only so many acres of corn fields, wheat fields, etc. There is only so much energy that we can produce every year. Wealth, REAL wealth, comes from real resources. .

You talk like everything has an expiration date and that the world doesn't have renewable or inventable resources. You need to have more faith in human ingenuity.
 
This inauguration and Obama's speech has received a lot of press coverage - with everybody projecting what will happen after he laid out such a strong, left-leaning speech. Gun control, global warming, immigration, tax the rich, give to the poor, etc. It has made great material for every blogger and news reporter.

But Obama is still the same guy he was for the last 4 years. Big ideas, but pretty feeble results. ObamaCare seems to be his only semi-success, and I think that is going to die a slow death.

Let's look back in 6 months and see if anything has changed since the first administration. He seems to be making an effort to make the people who voted for Romney angry. However, a lot of these are Republicans who run most of the corporations that make this country prosperous. You watch how clever they can be at evading any new rule that is going to cost them money.

In other words, we are stuck with the same ole Obama for the next 4 years and, like the last 4 years, and I don't expect great change.
 
i wrote this on words first...I got timed out here..It takes me a little while...
bobby...I could care less how rich some people are…More power to them..They pay enough! The only thing I care about about, are the tax dollars that are being wasted..I don’t mind paying my share, but I demand my monies worth..Only one American safety-net program has a track record of significant success. Fifty years ago, 35 percent of the elderly lived in poverty, while only 9 percent do so today – even as the definition of poverty has changed. The average family living in poverty now has air conditioning, washers and dryers, and microwave ovens.… Lincoln said, “You judge a nation by how well it takes care of its very old and very young…
Twenty-two percent of children live in poverty in the US, and many of those end up transferring to programs for adult poverty almost automatically. ..Social programs bear most of the blame for that process.Decades of incentives that discourage or penalize marriage, havedamaged the family structure, but social programs are entirely to blame in my opinion…

The CDC reported in 2010 that single mothers accounted for 40.6 percent of all children born in 2008. Children raised outside of marriage are nine times more likely to live in poverty than children raised by the father and mother.The breakdown of the family and the diminishment of marriage as a social institution play a large part in producing and perpetuating poverty. To the extent that social programs discourage marriage, they contribute to poverty rather than solve it.
Clearly, if we want (as you seem to) to keep our social safety net programs – and there is very little political will to do otherwise at this time.. we need to re engineer them to prepare children for success. To that end, we should try to find ways to improve education as a means to escape poverty and strengthen the institution of marriage.We need to find and eliminate marriage penalties in welfare programs, and perhaps look for ways to reward marriage in households with children. That also means orienting the state approach to marriage where the state interest lies solely in protecting the children. Whatever it takes…

Welfare programs should also move towards self-sufficiency. Ironically, we already accomplished that in the mid-1990s with a rare case of real entitlement reform, in which Congress and President Bill Clinton created incentives for welfare recipients to find work. That requires an economy that produces real job creation, but also consistency in enforcing those provisions. President Barack Obama undermined them by executive order earlier this year, a move that should be rescinded as soon as possible.
We can do better on education in part by allowing resources to flow to non-government players through school choice. Too many families have no opportunity to offer their children any other option but the failing public school closest to their house. The substandard education that children in these schools receive, forces them into poverty later just as it sends them down the easy path from Supplemental Security Income derived from claims of intellectual disability as a child to adult disability checks. School choice for poor families would enable parents to make choices that will allow their children to compete later for jobs, and to produce innovation that will lift even more children out of poverty in later generations.

Finally, while there is no will to eliminate social safety-net programs, they may face doom anyway on the basis of simple math. Governments at every level have incurred liabilities for safety-net programs that they have no realistic chance of fulfilling. Politicians expand programs without paying for what has already been promised, and those who argue for reform are shouted down by people who argue by anecdote.
If we want to save these programs to help the TRULY needy and lift people out of poverty, we need to put these programs on solid fiscal footing. That will mean rethinking every such program’s benefits, eligibility, and administration in a way that puts costs at a reasonable and sustainable level.Otherwise, we face a fiscal crash that would end these programs forever. perhaps if thinking people can agree that the safety net strangles some of the very people we intend to help and needs serious reform to solve rather than motivate poverty.

A guy named Kristof’s (For the New York Times) wrote a column a few weeks ago. Instead of traveling to Somalia or another war-torn piece of geography to find poverty and a lack of response, Kristof went to Appalachia to see what poverty looks like in the US, and how government programs respond to it.His conclusion should make people across the political spectrum sit up and take notice….And I quote
“This is painful for a liberal to admit, but conservatives have a point when they suggest that America’s safety net can sometimes entangle people in a soul-crushing dependency. Our poverty programs do rescue many people, but other times they backfire.”

Kristof found a number of cases where well-intentioned social-service programs produce perverse incentives that work to keep people in poverty rather than lift them out.Briefly, from a column that should be read carefully in full, those examples include a financial incentive to keep children illiterate, welfare benefits that punish marriage, and the ease in which children move from poverty programs to disability programs as adults.
The result, as Kristof discovered to his discomfiture, is precisely the kind of institutionalized poverty and dependency that safety-net programs produce when designed or expanded poorly. From a societal point of view….” it’s a form of child abuse"
 
i wrote this on words first...I got timed out here..It takes me a little while...
bobby...I could care less how rich some people are…More power to them..They pay enough! The only thing I care about about, are the tax dollars that are being wasted..I don’t mind paying my share, but I demand my monies worth..Only one American safety-net program has a track record of significant success. Fifty years ago, 35 percent of the elderly lived in poverty, while only 9 percent do so today – even as the definition of poverty has changed. The average family living in poverty now has air conditioning, washers and dryers, and microwave ovens.… Lincoln said, “You judge a nation by how well it takes care of its very old and very young…
Twenty-two percent of children live in poverty in the US, and many of those end up transferring to programs for adult poverty almost automatically. ..Social programs bear most of the blame for that process.Decades of incentives that discourage or penalize marriage, havedamaged the family structure, but social programs are entirely to blame in my opinion…

The CDC reported in 2010 that single mothers accounted for 40.6 percent of all children born in 2008. Children raised outside of marriage are nine times more likely to live in poverty than children raised by the father and mother.The breakdown of the family and the diminishment of marriage as a social institution play a large part in producing and perpetuating poverty. To the extent that social programs discourage marriage, they contribute to poverty rather than solve it.
Clearly, if we want (as you seem to) to keep our social safety net programs – and there is very little political will to do otherwise at this time.. we need to re engineer them to prepare children for success. To that end, we should try to find ways to improve education as a means to escape poverty and strengthen the institution of marriage.We need to find and eliminate marriage penalties in welfare programs, and perhaps look for ways to reward marriage in households with children. That also means orienting the state approach to marriage where the state interest lies solely in protecting the children. Whatever it takes…

Welfare programs should also move towards self-sufficiency. Ironically, we already accomplished that in the mid-1990s with a rare case of real entitlement reform, in which Congress and President Bill Clinton created incentives for welfare recipients to find work. That requires an economy that produces real job creation, but also consistency in enforcing those provisions. President Barack Obama undermined them by executive order earlier this year, a move that should be rescinded as soon as possible.
We can do better on education in part by allowing resources to flow to non-government players through school choice. Too many families have no opportunity to offer their children any other option but the failing public school closest to their house. The substandard education that children in these schools receive, forces them into poverty later just as it sends them down the easy path from Supplemental Security Income derived from claims of intellectual disability as a child to adult disability checks. School choice for poor families would enable parents to make choices that will allow their children to compete later for jobs, and to produce innovation that will lift even more children out of poverty in later generations.

Finally, while there is no will to eliminate social safety-net programs, they may face doom anyway on the basis of simple math. Governments at every level have incurred liabilities for safety-net programs that they have no realistic chance of fulfilling. Politicians expand programs without paying for what has already been promised, and those who argue for reform are shouted down by people who argue by anecdote.
If we want to save these programs to help the TRULY needy and lift people out of poverty, we need to put these programs on solid fiscal footing. That will mean rethinking every such program’s benefits, eligibility, and administration in a way that puts costs at a reasonable and sustainable level.Otherwise, we face a fiscal crash that would end these programs forever. perhaps if thinking people can agree that the safety net strangles some of the very people we intend to help and needs serious reform to solve rather than motivate poverty.

A guy named Kristof’s (For the New York Times) wrote a column a few weeks ago. Instead of traveling to Somalia or another war-torn piece of geography to find poverty and a lack of response, Kristof went to Appalachia to see what poverty looks like in the US, and how government programs respond to it.His conclusion should make people across the political spectrum sit up and take notice….And I quote
“This is painful for a liberal to admit, but conservatives have a point when they suggest that America’s safety net can sometimes entangle people in a soul-crushing dependency. Our poverty programs do rescue many people, but other times they backfire.”

Kristof found a number of cases where well-intentioned social-service programs produce perverse incentives that work to keep people in poverty rather than lift them out.Briefly, from a column that should be read carefully in full, those examples include a financial incentive to keep children illiterate, welfare benefits that punish marriage, and the ease in which children move from poverty programs to disability programs as adults.
The result, as Kristof discovered to his discomfiture, is precisely the kind of institutionalized poverty and dependency that safety-net programs produce when designed or expanded poorly. From a societal point of view….” it’s a form of child abuse"

Well said and if I could be so bold as to summarize your comments, essentially it is this, the welfare state is a complete and utter failure. But we all know that its failure will never be addressed thanks to the leftist power elite that runs the nation. Like all things the left has screwed up, nothing is ever done to fix them.

For Kristoff, a kooky leftist, to admit the failure of liberalism and commend conservatives , is a big deal. Of course, it is ignored by the lib media. Let that idiot Krugman pen a column spouting the wonders of government spending and the lib MSM promotes it ad nauseum.

Liberalism has done so much damage to this nation, yet many brainwashed Americans don't see it and some think liberalism is great...all thanks to the government indoctrination centers and the media.
 
Well said and if I could be so bold as to summarize your comments, essentially it is this, the welfare state is a complete and utter failure. But we all know that its failure will never be addressed thanks to the leftist power elite that runs the nation. Like all things the left has screwed up, nothing is ever done to fix them.

For Kristoff, a kooky leftist, to admit the failure of liberalism and commend conservatives , is a big deal. Of course, it is ignored by the lib media. Let that idiot Krugman pen a column spouting the wonders of government spending and the lib MSM promotes it ad nauseum.

Liberalism has done so much damage to this nation, yet many brainwashed Americans don't see it and some think liberalism is great...all thanks to the government indoctrination centers and the media.
Gipper..That was my point..he was and still is a liberal...but he saw the light on this issue..anyone who cares enough to open their eyes will see...as far as i'm concerned they can't debate us on this one...their policies DON'T WORK..
 
Gipper..That was my point..he was and still is a liberal...but he saw the light on this issue..anyone who cares enough to open their eyes will see...as far as i'm concerned they can't debate us on this one...their policies DON'T WORK..

Then Obama and those like him refuse to open their eyes. It is apparent their beliefs and policies are total failures, yet they persist.

In the end, leftists only care about equality. They do not give a damn about whether government works. Look at Obamacare. It is a perfect example. It will fail miserably, while causing terrible damage to our economy, resulting in higher unemployment. Same with this idiotic policy to put women in combat. It will not make American forces better and might make them much worse, but it will result in some form of equality....and that is all the left cares about.
 
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Then Obama and those like him refuse to open their eyes. It is apparent their beliefs and policies are total failures, yet they persist.

I don't believe that they don't understand where their policies have led the country. They are not stupid people.

I question what their "real" endgame is.
 
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