The USA

[Sadistic Savior]

About half of my computer seems to have been made in China.

Manufactured maybe. But the technology is not Chinese, and neither is the operating system.

My television was made in Japan.

But it wasnt invented there.

Inventing new technology is a much bigger deal than manufacturing existing technology. What has China or Japan invented lately?

With power and influence come enemies. It is an indicator that we're still powerful; it isn't hard to explain. One word does it: envy.

They would not envy America if they did not think it was a great nation.

 

[OPGhostdog]

Why is some of you people giving the American government
to much credit? What is one good thing that has happened
within the past 40 years here in America? Sure..This is our
Country we all call home, but this is not the home of the free,
and show me where we have 100% freedom here in America?

Most Countries who once believed that America WAS the
greatest country in the world. Now see that we are not all
that great. We can not solve problems here at home, and
most outside countries see that.

They would not envy America if they
did not think it was a great nation.

I don't believe that NO outside country envy America. Because
there is other countries that America might envy. However I do
believe that there is countries that wish America would sit its
ass down somewhere to rest, and stop creating confusion.

America has gone post-industrial,
Vyo that's true, and to be honest most modern day technology
did come from Tiawan,Japan, or China. Thanks to the foreign
exchange of ideas.

So I believe if we work on our own Economics,Education,Human
Rights violations,Unmployement,Race & Discrimination things
might get better. We must clean up our own backyard before
we can clean anyone else front yard.

 

[Sadistic Savior]

Why is some of you people giving the American government to much credit? What is one good thing that has happened
within the past 40 years here in America?

"Good" is a value judgement, and is subjective. Millions of people a year try to get into America because they think it is better than what they have. The same is not true of most other countries (maybe all other countries).

I don't believe that NO outside country envy America. Because there is other countries that America might envy.

So why arent millions of Americans leaving to go there?

However I do believe that there is countries that wish America would sit its ass down somewhere to rest, and stop creating confusion.

I wish they would shut the hell up and stop whining and stay out of our way. But I dont always get what I wish for either. Sucks eh?

So I believe if we work on our own Economics,Education,Human Rights violations,Unmployement,Race & Discrimination things might get better. We must clean up our own backyard before we can clean anyone else front yard.

I disagree. I think we can do both simultaneously.

 

[OPGhostdog]

So why arent millions of Americans leaving to go there?

That was the most goofy question I have read in a good while.
Just to go to show you that you are not as bright as you seem
to think you are. There is millions of Americans living in other
Countries. Some was forced to remain in certain countries, and
some decided to visit other countries, and felt more relaxed
and decided to stay.

So Nerd!!!! What does that tell you? Believe me I have visited
many countries while in the Army, and even if things is cool here
in America. This crazy place is home to me, and its my choice to
live where ever I choose to live.

Now since you want to talk about the good old US of America.
Lets talk about the many dislikes of America. There is a top 5
list that I have created, and regardless to the change in society
these items has bought about some serious issues.
(1): Racism & Discrimination. (2): A Economic Problem. (3):
A Better Educational System. (4): Unemployement, and (5):
Poor Housing & Healthcare.

I bet money that people like Rpjs7 and you have NEVER
experienced a day in your life battling against none of
the above I just mentioned, and until you have had a personal
experiences being homeless or having no food. You do not know
what its like. So don't give me that happy USA bs. Because it
don't covers the poor people that's on my client's list everyday.

 

[Sadistic Savior]

That was the most goofy question I have read in a good while. Just to go to show you that you are not as bright as you seem
to think you are. There is millions of Americans living in other Countries.

Prove it. Post a link to the emmigration statistics you are using.

So Nerd!!!!

Heh heh, is that supposed to be an insult?

What does that tell you?

That you are once again expecting me to take your word for something as if it were fact?

Believe me I have visited many countries while in the Army, and even if things is cool here in America.

What does your personal experience have to do with anything, even assuming it is true?

You are making the claim that there is a major emmigration of people leaving the US. Please post evidence to support that claim.

Now since you want to talk about the good old US of America. Lets talk about the many dislikes of America.

Ok. Lets.

There is a top 5 list that I have created, and regardless to the change in society these items has bought about some serious issues.

(1): Racism & Discrimination.

Many parts of Europe seem to be having their own racial/discrimination issues with their Middle East immigrants. Non-Muslims are routinely persecuted in Islamic nations such as Iran. Women are discriminated against in Islamic nations as well. China is infamous for it's crackdowns on various religious groups (especially Tibetens and Christians).

Seems to me you could do far worse than America where racism and Discrimination are concerned.

(2): A Economic Problem.

What Economic problem is that? Can you be more specific? Americans enjoy one of the highest standards of living in the world, if not the highest.

(3): A Better Educational System.

Better than what?

(4): Unemployement

The unemployment rate is better than the vast majority of the planet, including much of Europe. For example, the German unemployement rate is currently 9.2%. Compare that to the 4.4% unemployment rate America currently enjoys.

(5): Poor Housing & Healthcare.

Can you give me an example of the poor housing of the average American, and what you are comparing it to?

American Medical technology is arguably the best in the world.

You do not know what its like.

Irrelevant even if true, since my argument does not rest on the assumption that we "know what it's like".

So don't give me that happy USA bs. Because it
don't covers the poor people that's on my client's list everyday.

The Poor do not represent the majority of Americans. They are the exception, not the rule.

Though "poor" is relative. I would be willing to bet that the poor in America live far better than the middle class in most other nations. Maybe that is part of the reason so many of them want in.

 

[vyo476]

Manufactured maybe.

Does this not bother you a little? Someday, an American will stand up and say, "I have an idea!!" and the rest of the world will just look at us and say, "Well good for you."

I don't like that we've become so economically reliant on foreign manufacturing.

They would not envy America if they did not think it was a great nation.

Yeah, I was agreeing with you on that point.

 

[OPGhostdog]

Prove it. Post a link to the emmigration statistics you are using.

You know what Sadistic? I think you're full of ****. It was your post
that I was commenting on, and you turn around and ask me to post
a link to something you is trying to use (Not Me).

Sadistic, you are sounding more and more stupid each post. I was
not the one who bought this topic, and again show me where I asked
you to believe my facts?

What does your personal experience
have to do with anything, even assuming it is true? You are making
the claim that there is a major emmigration of people leaving the US.
Please post evidence to support that claim.

Dumbass you are the one who made the following quote..Damn.

So why arent millions of Americans
leaving to go there? Can't you see in your own statement you
asked a question in reply to my post.

I am going to stop replying to your posts, due to the fact that
you is a confused a**hole, and I do not have time to argue a
point with you. However like I said there is millions of Americans
living in other Countries. Stop being stupid because you know
just as well as I do that there is Americans living in other
Countries regardless to the reason.

Believe me I have visited many countries
while in the Army, and even if things is cool here in America.
Then you want to turn around and ask me

What does your personal experience have to do with anything,
even assuming it is true?

Well I mentioned that because I know that you have not been outside
of your neighborhood, and that's how I know how other countries
culture is different then ours. My personal experience is far greater
then anything you ever read in a book about. Again Sadistic, Nobody
have to lie to you in order to impress you..believe me. Because you're
a nobody who was blessed to have a computer to f**k with people
on.

 

[palerider]

What's your opinion of the USA? Do you think it is still "the greatest nation" or would you say it "simply sucks"?

Look at the lines of people wanting to get into the country and the lines of people wanting to get out. Nuff said.

It is very easy to say "this sucks" when you have everyting. Even the poor here have a better standard of living than most of the world. Anyone who lives here and has any knowledge of the rest of the world and still says the US sucks is simply a spoiled brat.

 

[palerider]

Does this not bother you a little? Someday, an American will stand up and say, "I have an idea!!" and the rest of the world will just look at us and say, "Well good for you."

No. Because we have the capability of seeing our ideas to fruition. We don't need for someone else to accept the idea and make it reality for us.

I don't like that we've become so economically reliant on foreign manufacturing.

We really haven't become so reliant on foriegn manufacturing. When you read about US manufacturing losses, they are nearly always talking about the loss of manufacturing jobs. The loss of jobs is more often due to improvements in production methods and increased productivity with fewer people than the loss of a factory. The manufacturing that has left the country is mostly for products that simply can't be made at a profit here anymore and a large number of those industries are operating in other countrys still under US control.

 

[Sadistic Savior]

Me: Manufactured maybe.

Does this not bother you a little?

No, not really. Anyone can manufacture. Creating and inventing new technology is a lot harder. Manufacturing is basically just another form of manual labor...you are replicating someone elses design.

Those jobs are replaced in the business and tech sectors.

Someday, an American will stand up and say, "I have an idea!!" and the rest of the world will just look at us and say, "Well good for you."

...and then they'll fork over the cash to purchase whatever product was inspired by that idea.

I don't like that we've become so economically reliant on foreign manufacturing.

It's all supply and demand. If Americans wanted to do it, there would be more demand here.

You: That was the most goofy question I have read in a good while. Just to go to show you that you are not as bright as you seem to think you are. There is millions of Americans living in other Countries.

Me: Prove it. Post a link to the emmigration statistics you are using.

You know what Sadistic? I think you're full of ****. It was your post that I was commenting on, and you turn around and ask me to post
a link to something you is trying to use (Not Me).

I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were basing your opinion on actual statistics rather than your own rhetoric. Are you saying that you are not basing it on anything other than your own opinion?

You are making the claim that there is some massive outflux of Americans, and you just want me to take your word for it? What makes you so special?

Sadistic, you are sounding more and more stupid each post.

That doesnt seem to stop you from responding to my posts.

I was not the one who bought this topic

Yes, you were. You said "There is millions of Americans living in other Countries". You made a claim. I was asking you to support that claim with something other than your own opinion.

You may really believe what you are saying, but that doesnt necessarily make it true. It makes it an opinion, not a fact.

I am going to stop replying to your posts, due to the fact that you is a confused a**hole, and I do not have time to argue a point with you.

I've heard that lots of times before. Lets see if you stick to your promise.

Well I mentioned that because I know that you have not been outside of your neighborhood

How do you know that? I see your assumptions dont stop at emmigration statistics.

My personal experience is far greater then anything you ever read in a book about.

I am unwilling to take your word for it on an anonymous forum. Try not to take it personally.

Because you're a nobody who was blessed to have a computer to f**k with people on.

Asking for evidence to support a point is "F**K"ing with people?

So far you've insulted me several times. I havnt insulted you even once. All I asked for was objective evidence to support some of your claims.

 

[vyo476]

No, not really. Anyone can manufacture. Creating and inventing new technology is a lot harder. Manufacturing is basically just another form of manual labor...you are replicating someone elses design.

Those jobs are replaced in the business and tech sectors.

Economically speaking this is driving us in a direction we probably don't want to be going. As you said, creating and inventing new tech is a lot harder than manufacturing. This implies that relatively fewer people are capable of performing the former. As more manufacturing jobs pick themselves up and move overseas, fewer Americans can be employed in them. We then create jobs to take the place of the ones that are gone - but many of those jobs are BS make-work jobs that don't serve any economic purpose other than increasing employment.

It's all supply and demand. If Americans wanted to do it, there would be more demand here.

My biggest problem is that, as far as I can see, our international economic leverage is weakening. Sure, all the best stuff is invented here, but if we don't have control over the production of products based on those inventions than we're sunk - someone else gets to pull our strings. Whose in a better bargaining position? Well, we're the ones with the fancy tech; they have to negotiate to get it. But wait - they already control a hefty percentage of our manufacturing. Sure, we can withhold our new microchip design - so long as we don't mind going without shoes.

In order to keep our leverage strong we exercise two types of foreign pressure - money-backed and militarily-backed. We can either throw money at them or threaten to throw bombs at them. I find neither of those appealing, because, in the long run, neither is a winning strategy.

 

[Sadistic Savior]

Economically speaking this is driving us in a direction we probably don't want to be going.

Why?

As long as those jobs are replaced by jobs that are as good or better, why does it matter? Would you really rather see us as a manufacturing power rather than a business or tech power?

As more manufacturing jobs pick themselves up and move overseas, fewer Americans can be employed in them.

They'll find other niches, just like they did after the Industrial Revolution. Things change. And if there is one thing Americans are good at, its adapting.

My biggest problem is that, as far as I can see, our international economic leverage is weakening.

Probably. That doesnt mean we will not stay on top though.

Take a look at the Forbes World 2000 for 2006:

1 Citigroup (United States)
2 General Electric (United States)
3 Bank of America (United States)
4 American Intl Group (United States)
5 HSBC Group
6 ExxonMobil (United States)
7 Royal Dutch/Shell Group
8 BP
9 JPMorgan Chase (United States)
10 UBS
11 ING Group
12 Toyota Motor
13 Wal-Mart Stores (United States)
14 Royal Bank of Scotland United
15 Total France
16 Chevron (United States)
17 BNP Paribas France
18 Berkshire Hathaway (United States)
19 Banco Santander
20 Barclays
21 Procter & Gamble (United States)
22 ConocoPhillips (United States)
23 IBM (United States)
24 HBOS
25 Verizon Commun (United States)

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/18/06f2k_The-Forbes-2000_Rank.html

Over half of the top 25 corporations in the world are American. Despite the fact that we make up only 1/16 the world's population. Thats pretty good if you ask me.

Sure, all the best stuff is invented here, but if we don't have control over the production of products based on those inventions than we're sunk - someone else gets to pull our strings.

Why? What leverage does it give them if we have 20 other nations we can outsource manufacturing to? Or even (if it came to it) manufacture it ourselves?

If what you are producing is rare, you have more leverage. If it is common, you have less leverage. Manufacturing labor is not rare. The ability to make something new (like technology) is rare.

And dont forget, we are a nation of consumers as well. That alone gives us economic leverage. China would be in serious trouble if we ever decided that we would rather outsource stuff to India or South America or SE Asia. They need us far more than we need them.

Sure, we can withhold our new microchip design - so long as we don't mind going without shoes.

Who says we will go without shoes? Do you really care if your stuff is made in India or China or SE Asia? The labor they (China) are offering is cheaper than anywhere else, but they are hardly the only source of cheap labor.

 

[vyo476]

Why?

As long as those jobs are replaced by jobs that are as good or better, why does it matter? Would you really rather see us as a manufacturing power rather than a business or tech power?

I'd be more comfortable that way, yes.

Things change. And if there is one thing Americans are good at, its adapting.

Cough...slavery...cough...

Probably. That doesnt mean we will not stay on top though.

Economics keeps a country in the world spotlight. Sure, we have the best military the world has ever seen, but without our Invisible Hand keeping us at the top I don't see America remaining the world's premiere superpower.

Why? What leverage does it give them if we have 20 other nations we can outsource manufacturing to? Or even (if it came to it) manufacture it ourselves?

Those big corporations that you mentioned from the Forbes list probably wouldn't take it too kindly if we started playing hopscotch with what countries they can place their manufacturing plants in.

If what you are producing is rare, you have more leverage. If it is common, you have less leverage. Manufacturing labor is not rare. The ability to make something new (like technology) is rare.

True enough, but in the material sense if our foreign relations go completely down the tubes we're stuck with a bunch of brains and some really nice ideas and they're stuck with the means to continue producing yesterday's (still really excellent) products. Who does better in that scenario, the guys with the ideas and no way of bringing them to fruition adequately or the guys who can keep making stuff that was cutting edge a couple years ago?

And dont forget, we are a nation of consumers as well. That alone gives us economic leverage. China would be in serious trouble if we ever decided that we would rather outsource stuff to India or South America or SE Asia. They need us far more than we need them.

You didn't exactly link consumerism to our choice of where to outsource to. What does America's consumerism have to do with where we outsource manufacturing to?

Who says we will go without shoes? Do you really care if your shoes are made in India or China or SE Asia? The labor they are offering is cheaper than anywhere else, but they are hardly the only source of cheap labor.

It's mostly the investment companies have made in those countries that keeps our business there. It takes an enormous amount of capital to take a manufacturing enterprise that used to be based in the United States and ship it overseas without interrupting production. Just think of all the money our corporations have spent in India or China or Southeast Asia - money for the buildings, money for the equipment, etc. The labor is cheap but the cost of setting up the operation remains more or less the same. Asking them to pick up and move again would not go over well - these enormous corporations would be far more likely to exercise their considerable financial influence and lobby the government to continue relations with the place where most of their manufacturing happens. It's more economically sound for them to get the US government to appease the government of wherever than it is for them to pick up their entire operation and move it again.

 

[Sadistic Savior]

Me: Things change. And if there is one thing Americans are good at, its adapting.

Cough...slavery...cough...

Where is slavery now?

We adapted.

Economics keeps a country in the world spotlight. Sure, we have the best military the world has ever seen, but without our Invisible Hand keeping us at the top I don't see America remaining the world's premiere superpower.

Why not? What will change?

China is the only nation that even approaches our GDP, and they have 5 times our population.

Those big corporations that you mentioned from the Forbes list probably wouldn't take it too kindly if we started playing hopscotch with what countries they can place their manufacturing plants in.

What could they do to stop us? Contrary to popular belief, corporations do not run the government. They dont get a vote. All they can do is beg voters to vote the way they want us to.

At the moment most Americans agree with the corporations, and consider the trade off to be acceptable. Cheap products are more important than retaining manufacturing jobs.

True enough, but in the material sense if our foreign relations go completely down the tubes we're stuck with a bunch of brains and some really nice ideas and they're stuck with the means to continue producing yesterday's (still really excellent) products.

Someone will be willing to pay for those brains. Foreign manufactuers are producing those microchips, but the chips in turn are used in products which other people buy. Or are used to produce information products that other people buy.

You want to use our economy like a weapons, and that simply is not going to be possible going forward. Except when it comes to assimilating non-democracies. In that sense it can be a potent weapon.

You didn't exactly link consumerism to our choice of where to outsource to. What does America's consumerism have to do with where we outsource manufacturing to?

If consumers dont like China (for example) they could choose to boycott companies that manufacture there.

Asking them to pick up and move again would not go over well

If they stand to lose enough business over it, yes, they will pick up and move back. If their actions piss off enough people, they will have to appease them.

these enormous corporations would be far more likely to exercise their considerable financial influence and lobby the government to continue relations with the place where most of their manufacturing happens. It's more economically sound for them to get the US government to appease the government of wherever than it is for them to pick up their entire operation and move it again.

Financial lobbys dont elect politicians. They have no vote. They are powerless if they cannot get the American Masses to go along with them.

The fact of the matter is that their actions dont piss off that many people. I'm not saying it is a good or bad thing, just that it is the reality. A good example is Bush's confrontation with the PRC over Taiwan. We have nothing economically to gain from that. In fact, US corporations would stand to benefit from China swallowing Taiwan. So why doesnt the Bush administration appease the PRC?