The sadness that is America

I do not recall Reagan ever saying deficits did not matter, I remember Cheney, and some others saying it, but not Reagan. Perhaps I am forgetting?

However, we are kidding ourselves if we think that the United States had no debt before Reagan came to office. Certainly it did increase under Reagan, but that is a more an offshoot of tax cuts with really no real spending cuts to go along with them.

Additionally, I think most of the argument of "deficits don't matter" was politically as I recall. Saying that voters are not overly concerned with the deficit, and apparently that assertion is seemingly correct.



Doubtful, China has become a net seller of Treasury assets as of late.



Sub-Prime loans started in the mid 1990's... Bush became President in 2001, so attempting to lay the sub-prime debacle at his feet is laughable.

Reagan went off on wild spending sprees on major new experimental military systems escalation like the whole Stars Wars boondoggle. He cut taxes, raised taxes, he was all over the board.

That fact is Republicants like to cry that the Dems are tax & spend and they themselves are borrow & spend... which is actually worse.



And you know it's ridiculous to blame sub-prime as the cause of the economic collapse as only 12% of the foreclosures were sub-prime. Meaning 88% were normal everyday loans.


 
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Laughable? What do the facts say?

Back in 2002, Bush announced a plan to increase minority home ownership by 5.5 million homes. His plan had the following components -

http://www.policyalmanac.org/social_welfare/archive/wh_minority_housing.shtml

Wow, there's the blue print that created the subprime mortgage meltdown - Increase the government's stake in underwriting subrpime loans, have Wall Street buy securtized subprime assets, then repeat.

The problem with your assertion is that this blueprint had been in place for years before Bush even took office.

HUD was increasing the amount of these "toxic assets" they were willing to buy (aka that Fannie and Freddie would buy). The Fair Housing Act act was used to bring charges of discrimination and racism all throughout the 1990's.

The National Homeowner Strategy sought to establish far greater minority homeownerships, and did so by reducing mortgage restrictions. Over $1 trillion dollars in loans under the CRA (which was found to have a much higher default rate prior to these loans) were given between 1997 and 1999.

This was only possible due to lax lending restrictions and forcing Fannie and Freddie to buy these loans, which were then sold to Wall Street, and the profits were used to make more loans.

Further, you seem to claim that $440 billion brought about the whole crisis... yet after multiple trillions have been spent to reverse that and another $7 trillion in guarantees, we are not out of it.

Additionally, does it not seem odd for a President who apparently "does not care about black people" to push a large housing program for minority ownership?

What happened after Bush made that announcement?

subprimeShare.jpg


Wow. The subprime market exploded. Again with the added benefit of having our financial sector heavily invested in that bubble.

Yeah, poor Bush. Clinton made him do it.

Clinton did not "make him do it". The pattern of pushing bad loans to people who had no business with a loan has been in place years before Bush showed up, and really years before Clinton showed up. Bush just happened to be in office when it all hit the fan.

This system however should be a clear sign that government mandates in the private sector do not work, as "minority housing" was a government mandate.
 
Regardless of whether the president was Clinton, Bush, or Obama, regardless of whether the president at the time "cared about black people", and regardless of who had a D or an R after their name, did the POTUS really force the mortgage lenders to loan money to people who couldn't pay it back? How did the presidency gain such power?

I really don't think we can lay the recession at the feet of any US president.
 
The problem with your assertion is that this blueprint had been in place for years before Bush even took office.

HUD was increasing the amount of these "toxic assets" they were willing to buy (aka that Fannie and Freddie would buy). The Fair Housing Act act was used to bring charges of discrimination and racism all throughout the 1990's.

The National Homeowner Strategy sought to establish far greater minority homeownerships, and did so by reducing mortgage restrictions. Over $1 trillion dollars in loans under the CRA (which was found to have a much higher default rate prior to these loans) were given between 1997 and 1999.

This was only possible due to lax lending restrictions and forcing Fannie and Freddie to buy these loans, which were then sold to Wall Street, and the profits were used to make more loans.

Further, you seem to claim that $440 billion brought about the whole crisis... yet after multiple trillions have been spent to reverse that and another $7 trillion in guarantees, we are not out of it.

Additionally, does it not seem odd for a President who apparently "does not care about black people" to push a large housing program for minority ownership?



Clinton did not "make him do it". The pattern of pushing bad loans to people who had no business with a loan has been in place years before Bush showed up, and really years before Clinton showed up. Bush just happened to be in office when it all hit the fan.

This system however should be a clear sign that government mandates in the private sector do not work, as "minority housing" was a government mandate.

Try reading the graph again, the volume of subprime didn't skyrocket until after Bush's plan was announced. In fact, the percentage of subprime loans of total loans fell when Bush came into office and then skyrocketed after the plan was announced.

Fannie Mae didn't truly ramp up its subprime position until after 2004 by Raines' successor, Mudd.

Finally, if this had simply been a mortgage issue, then paying $750 billion would have covered the problem. It wasn't. There was systemic risk due to Wall Street buying securitized subprime assets. Please explain to me how these assets were bought before they existed. I would find it interesting to know how it was done.
 
Try reading the graph again, the volume of subprime didn't skyrocket until after Bush's plan was announced. In fact, the percentage of subprime loans of total loans fell when Bush came into office and then skyrocketed after the plan was announced.

Fannie Mae didn't truly ramp up its subprime position until after 2004 by Raines' successor, Mudd.

I am not sure this graph is taking into account all of the reduced standards in lending done under the CRA. For example, over the course of 1997-1999 there was over $1 trillion in these "relaxed standards" loans that were given out, but the chart you posted shows only around $300 billion in sub-prime loans over that time period.

Perhaps these loans do not qualify as "sub-prime" loans, but they were no less risky, and were still packaged together by Fannie and Freddie and sold to investment banks.


Finally, if this had simply been a mortgage issue, then paying $750 billion would have covered the problem. It wasn't. There was systemic risk due to Wall Street buying securitized subprime assets. Please explain to me how these assets were bought before they existed. I would find it interesting to know how it was done.

These assets were being bought, and they existed, since the inception of sub-prime lending, and the lowering of standards under the CRA. Under the CRA guidelines, banks were required to make loans with large amounts of risk. They were only able to do this because Fannie and Freddie would buy the loans. Since they were quasi government entities, there was a widely held view that the securities then sold by these companies had the guarantee of the US government, making them popular investments for Wall Street banks.
 
I am not sure this graph is taking into account all of the reduced standards in lending done under the CRA. For example, over the course of 1997-1999 there was over $1 trillion in these "relaxed standards" loans that were given out, but the chart you posted shows only around $300 billion in sub-prime loans over that time period.

Perhaps these loans do not qualify as "sub-prime" loans, but they were no less risky, and were still packaged together by Fannie and Freddie and sold to investment banks.




These assets were being bought, and they existed, since the inception of sub-prime lending, and the lowering of standards under the CRA. Under the CRA guidelines, banks were required to make loans with large amounts of risk. They were only able to do this because Fannie and Freddie would buy the loans. Since they were quasi government entities, there was a widely held view that the securities then sold by these companies had the guarantee of the US government, making them popular investments for Wall Street banks.

CRA accounted for less than 25% of failed loans.
 
25% came from other sources that analyzed the fallout. I'm tired of doing everyone's home work.

When you make a claim, backing up that claim is your homework, not anyone else's.

It seems to me that there have been a couple of statements made that haven't been backed up. One is that "CRA accounted for less than 25% of failed loans." The statement that "25% came from other sources that analyzed the fallout" really makes no sense in the context of the discussion taking place.

The other statement that I read that hasn't been proven is that banks were required to make loans with large amounts of risk. If that is so, then whoever required those loans to be made contributed significantly to the current recession. It may be more accurate to say that Fannie and Freddie made risky lending practices possible by bundling and selling toxic mortgages, but who required the banks to do so? If risky loans were made possible, then it looks as if a lack of oversight was the key to the recession.
 
When you make a claim, backing up that claim is your homework, not anyone else's.

It seems to me that there have been a couple of statements made that haven't been backed up. One is that "CRA accounted for less than 25% of failed loans." The statement that "25% came from other sources that analyzed the fallout" really makes no sense in the context of the discussion taking place.

The other statement that I read that hasn't been proven is that banks were required to make loans with large amounts of risk. If that is so, then whoever required those loans to be made contributed significantly to the current recession. It may be more accurate to say that Fannie and Freddie made risky lending practices possible by bundling and selling toxic mortgages, but who required the banks to do so? If risky loans were made possible, then it looks as if a lack of oversight was the key to the recession.

I would think whoever implies that CRA was a major driver of the problem should back the implication up.

Another question you should be asking - why did Wall Street buy the assets in the first place? No one forced them to do that. If this has been simply a mortgage issue, then it would not have been so bad.
 
I would think whoever implies that CRA was a major driver of the problem should back the implication up.

Another question you should be asking - why did Wall Street buy the assets in the first place? No one forced them to do that. If this has been simply a mortgage issue, then it would not have been so bad.

That's a good question. Why did Wall Street buy up assets? Surely, they weren't being forced to do so. The investors must have believed that said assets were viable investment products, or no one would have bought them.

Why did the home buyers, for that matter, purchase homes that t hey knew that they couldn't really afford? They must have thought they would make money in the long run, or they would have continued to rent, or would have bought smaller houses.


Did everyone expect the value of real estate to continue to increase faster than the rate of inflation?
 
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=did_liberals_cause_the_subprime_crisis

The idea started on the outer precincts of the right. Thomas DiLorenzo, an economist who calls Ron Paul "the Jefferson of our time," wrote in September that the housing crisis is "the direct result of thirty years of government policy that has forced banks to make bad loans to un-creditworthy borrowers." The policy DiLorenzo decries is the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act, which requires banks to lend throughout the communities they serve.

The Blame-CRA theme bounced around the right-wing Freerepublic.com. In January it figured in a Washington Times column. In February, a Cato Institute affiliate named Stan Liebowitz picked up the critique in a New York Post op-ed headlined "The Real Scandal: How the Feds Invented the Mortgage Mess." On The National Review's blog, The Corner, John Derbyshire channeled Liebowitz: "The folk losing their homes? are victims not of 'predatory lenders,' but of government-sponsored -- in fact government-mandated -- political correctness."

Last week, a more careful expression of the idea hit The Washington Post, in an article on former Sen. Phil Gramm's influence over John McCain. While two progressive economists were quoted criticizing Gramm's insistent opposition to government regulation, the Brookings Institution's Robert Litan offered an opposing perspective. Litan suggested that the 1990s enhancement of CRA, which was achieved over Gramm's fierce opposition, may have contributed to the current crisis. "If the CRA had not been so aggressively pushed," Litan said, "it is conceivable things would not be quite as bad. People have to be honest about that."

This is classic rhetoric of conservative reaction. (For fans of welfare policy, it is Charles Murray meets the mortgage mess.) Most analysts see the sub-prime crisis as a market failure. Believing the bubble would never pop, lenders approved risky adjustable-rate mortgages, often without considering whether borrowers could afford them; families took on those loans; investors bought them in securitized form; and, all the while, regulators sat on their hands.

The revisionists say the problem wasn't too little regulation; but too much, via CRA. The law was enacted in response to both intentional redlining and structural barriers to credit for low-income communities. CRA applies only to banks and thrifts that are federally insured; it's conceived as a quid pro quo for that privilege, among others. This means the law doesn't apply to independent mortgage companies (or payday lenders, check-cashers, etc.)

The law imposes on the covered depositories an affirmative duty to lend throughout the areas from which they take deposits, including poor neighborhoods. The law has teeth because regulators' ratings of banks' CRA performance become public and inform important decisions, notably merger approvals. Studies by the Federal Reserve and Harvard's Joint Center for Housing Studies, among others, have shown that CRA increased lending and homeownership in poor communities without undermining banks' profitability.

But CRA has always had critics, and they now suggest that the law went too far in encouraging banks to lend in struggling communities. Rhetoric aside, the argument turns on a simple question: In the current mortgage meltdown, did lenders approve bad loans to comply with CRA, or to make money?

The evidence strongly suggests the latter. First, consider timing. CRA was enacted in 1977. The sub-prime lending at the heart of the current crisis exploded a full quarter century later. In the mid-1990s, new CRA regulations and a wave of mergers led to a flurry of CRA activity, but, as noted by the New America Foundation's Ellen Seidman (and by Harvard's Joint Center), that activity "largely came to an end by 2001." In late 2004, the Bush administration announced plans to sharply weaken CRA regulations, pulling small and mid-sized banks out from under the law's toughest standards. Yet sub-prime lending continued, and even intensified -- at the very time when activity under CRA had slowed and the law had weakened.

Second, it is hard to blame CRA for the mortgage meltdown when CRA doesn't even apply to most of the loans that are behind it. As the University of Michigan's Michael Barr points out, half of sub-prime loans came from those mortgage companies beyond the reach of CRA. A further 25 to 30 percent came from bank subsidiaries and affiliates, which come under CRA to varying degrees but not as fully as banks themselves. (With affiliates, banks can choose whether to count the loans.) Perhaps one in four sub-prime loans were made by the institutions fully governed by CRA.

Most important, the lenders subject to CRA have engaged in less, not more, of the most dangerous lending. Janet Yellen, president of the San Francisco Federal Reserve, offers the killer statistic: Independent mortgage companies, which are not covered by CRA, made high-priced loans at more than twice the rate of the banks and thrifts. With this in mind, Yellen specifically rejects the "tendency to conflate the current problems in the sub-prime market with CRA-motivated lending.? CRA, Yellen says, "has increased the volume of responsible lending to low- and moderate-income households."

Yellen is hardly alone in concluding that the real problems came from the institutions beyond the reach of CRA. One of the only regulators who long ago saw the current crisis coming was the late Ned Gramlich, a former Fed governor. While Alan Greenspan was cheering the sub-prime boom, Gramlich warned of its risks and unsuccessfully pushed for greater supervision of bank affiliates. But Gramlich praised CRA, saying last year, "banks have made many low- and moderate-income mortgages to fulfill their CRA obligations, they have found default rates pleasantly low, and they generally charge low mortgages rates. Thirty years later, CRA has become very good business."

It's telling that, amid all the recent recriminations, even lenders have not fingered CRA. That's because CRA didn't bring about the reckless lending at the heart of the crisis. Just as sub-prime lending was exploding, CRA was losing force and relevance. And the worst offenders, the independent mortgage companies, were never subject to CRA -- or any federal regulator. Law didn't make them lend. The profit motive did.

And that is not political correctness. It is correctness.
 
That's a good question. Why did Wall Street buy up assets? Surely, they weren't being forced to do so. The investors must have believed that said assets were viable investment products, or no one would have bought them.

Why did the home buyers, for that matter, purchase homes that t hey knew that they couldn't really afford? They must have thought they would make money in the long run, or they would have continued to rent, or would have bought smaller houses.


Did everyone expect the value of real estate to continue to increase faster than the rate of inflation?

No, apparently everyone thought their home values would just keep going up.

I'm not that bothered by home buyers. Banks take my money for a pittance of interest, loan out my money for far more interest, with a fractional lending scheme. They needed to show more responsibility.
 
The other statement that I read that hasn't been proven is that banks were required to make loans with large amounts of risk. If that is so, then whoever required those loans to be made contributed significantly to the current recession. It may be more accurate to say that Fannie and Freddie made risky lending practices possible by bundling and selling toxic mortgages, but who required the banks to do so? If risky loans were made possible, then it looks as if a lack of oversight was the key to the recession.

Since I made that comment I will address it.

First, under the CRA federal regulators evaluated almost every bank (with some exceptions) on their performance in community reinvestment. If these banks did not meet arbitrary funding levels set forth (mostly by liberals) but also some Republicans, then the government would deny new bank locations or merger requests.

This was often ignored, until a provision was inserted (I believe during the Clinton years) that made public those banks that were in non-compliance with the CRA.

This established a culture in which if a bank wanted to have any chance to expand or make money, they were essentially required by federal regulators to make loans to low income areas. It also made the banks public to housing advocacy groups that would stage protests, such as clogging banks with thousands of people all wanting to open bank accounts with $1. This would effectively bring the bank to a halt. Coming from this, according to a Treasury report, by 1998, 28% of loans were given to low income and medium income borrowers. (aka the most risky)

In order to make these loans more available and profitable, (which has been a big goal of the Congressional Black Caucus, Hispanic Caucus etc) Fannie and Freddie guaranteed these loans with a AAA credit score, based on the notion that Fannie and Freddie were backed by the Federal government. These loans were packaged and sold starting in 1997.

A report in the Fordham Urban Law Journal from 2002 concludes that banks were able to receive CRA credits for making these loans, thus perpetuating the cycle.

I find it hard to fault a bank for seeking to make a profit. I do not have a problem faulting politicians for creating an environment that brought this about.

The problem with blaming lack of oversight in my view is that there was plenty of oversight, it just ensured that banks continued to make these loans. Oversight is meaningless if it adds to the problem.
 
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I would think whoever implies that CRA was a major driver of the problem should back the implication up.

Another question you should be asking - why did Wall Street buy the assets in the first place? No one forced them to do that. If this has been simply a mortgage issue, then it would not have been so bad.

Why would a Wall Street bank think twice about buying an asset with a AAA credit score which is implicitly backed by the Federal government? Especially on the heels of the 1995 Mexican bailout?
 
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