The Bible as Science

[invest07]

dawky, dawky, dawky
Have you forgotten the challenge I laid down for you or are you just ignoring the challenge because you have nothing to dispute it?
I am still waiting for you to give us all the chapter and verse in Psalms and Joshua that says the Sun rotates around the Earth.
I say you don't know what you are talking about. Do you have the facts to prove me wrong?
Come on dawky. It's time for you to put up or consider shutting up.
Do you have any facts to prove me wrong or are you just babbling out your patoot?
dawky, it's time to step up to the plate and answer the challenge.

 

[invest07]

Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
NKJV

This is one of my personal favorite verses. Not only does Isaiah restate that the universe is expanding but he also gives us a very interesting picture from a view that no one on earth had ever had the opportunity to view at that time: Overhead. Looking down today from an airplane or a hot air balloon people would look very small. Perhaps a person riding a camel might even resemble a grasshopper. No one on earth had ever had a view like that, from directly far overhead, at that point in human history.

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[Dawkinsrocks]

Oh dear

So you aren't bothered by stories of talking snakes and walking on water and seas parting and resurrection and turning water into wine and Noah rounding up kangaroos and all the other shit in the bible?

And as for your grasshopper quote....you really are desperate aren't you?

Even the con men who wrote the bible would have observed that objects look smaller from a distance

Like looking down on them from a mountain

And as for Noah stating the universe is expanding you have to laugh don't you?

Do you believe he lived to be 800 years old?

 

[invest07]

dawky, dawky, dawky
I do believe you are full of hot air.
You publicly stated the sun orbiting the earth is in the Bible 3 times. So far you haven't proved you are right and have not given us the chapter and verse.
Either you know what you are talking about or you don't.
Prove which it is to us, publicly.
So far, all I can see about your level of knowledge is that you know a lot of cuss words.
dawky, you are lousy debater but a really good cusser.

 

[invest07]

Lagboltz
"Also I'm sure that in the millennia before the Bible cavemen knew that their garment, most likely an animal fir would not last in prime condition forever."

This is true but:
The caveman did not know that the heavens (ie our universe) would also be subject to entropy. You've missed an important revelation in this verse. The reference to a garment was only an analogy presented for understanding, to a generally miserably educated audience. (I use the term audience because this verse would be read to most Jews - they couldn't read)
To state that a garment wears out is obvious to most anyone (perhaps not dawky but most of us with a brain get that).
To compare the wearing out of that garment to what is happening in the cosmos requires divine inspiration because no human on earth understood that until the 20th century - 2700 years after this was written.

Earlier you also made reference to the rewriting of the Torah referenced in Wikipedia.

I don't believe that ever happened and here are the reasons:
1) The Jews are absolutely anal in their copying of the Torah. Modern synagogues each have a scrolled Torah which is copied by hand by trained scribes. If they make ONE MISTAKE, ONE WORD, ONE PUNCTUATION ERROR, the scroll they have done so far is immediately destroyed. Every letter of the Bible is of utmost importance to the Jews. Rewriting the Torah would only have been done by Jews. Nobody else cared about the Torah. It would be way, way out of character for Jews to violate this principle which has existed for at least 4000 years.
2) According to my somewhat limited research in this are, there is not one ancient reference to this occurring. A modern reference as a source for antiquities is mainly useless, even if written by "experts". Jospehus and Philo never mentioned this. Neither did Pliny. Do you have an ancient reference?
3) This would have been a major undertaking requiring many trained people and adequate funding. What specific organization did this and what were the names of a few of these scribes and rabbis? Since this was a major task physically which mad significant cultural implications, don't you think there would have been records kept?
4) There are numerous word for word quotes and reference to the Torah in later books which no one claims to have been rewritten, There are quotes and references in Psalms, most of the prophets and indirect references in Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon.

My guess is that if any person or organization had tried to rewrite the Torah, they would have been hauled into the street and stoned.

I believe the Greek you quoted may have read the Torah, as written by Moses around 3400 years ago, as dictated by God, and it may have made sense to him.
The Bible was first. The Greeks came later. Centuries later.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

In Joshua it says the sun rises and the sun sets

It doesn't

The earth revolves on it's axis and around the sun

If you think that gets the bible off the hook for saying people lived to be 800 years old you are a lunatic

But then you think knowing that things look smaller from a distance is evidence of divinity so I guess you probably are

 

[Lagboltz]

Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
NKJV

This is one of my personal favorite verses. Not only does Isaiah restate that the universe is expanding but he also gives us a very interesting picture from a view that no one on earth had ever had the opportunity to view at that time: Overhead. Looking down today from an airplane or a hot air balloon people would look very small. Perhaps a person riding a camel might even resemble a grasshopper. No one on earth had ever had a view like that, from directly far overhead, at that point in human history.

So the inhabitants look the size of grasshoppers. If the inhabitants are around 6 feet tall and a grasshopper is one inch, the inhabitants are about 72 times larger than a grasshopper. For the inhabitants to appear the size of one inch you would only need to go about 72 times the inhabitants size to achieve the same ratio. That means you would only need to go up 432 feet before the inhabitants had the same appearance in size. You can get 432 feet from many hill tops.

Lots of people had an opportunity for that view from that distance. That passage seems to be stating that the heavens are only 432 feet high (from your point of view). In that case I have been to heaven and beyond many times. As far as the big bang your idea of the word “stretch” is a stretch of the imagination.

 

[Lagboltz]

Lagboltz
"Also I'm sure that in the millennia before the Bible cavemen knew that their garment, most likely an animal fir would not last in prime condition forever."

This is true but:
The caveman did not know that the heavens (ie our universe) would also be subject to entropy. You've missed an important revelation in this verse. The reference to a garment was only an analogy presented for understanding, to a generally miserably educated audience. (I use the term audience because this verse would be read to most Jews - they couldn't read)
To state that a garment wears out is obvious to most anyone (perhaps not dawky but most of us with a brain get that).
To compare the wearing out of that garment to what is happening in the cosmos requires divine inspiration because no human on earth understood that until the 20th century - 2700 years after this was written.

Earlier you also made reference to the rewriting of the Torah referenced in Wikipedia.

I don't believe that ever happened and here are the reasons:
1) The Jews are absolutely anal in their copying of the Torah. Modern synagogues each have a scrolled Torah which is copied by hand by trained scribes. If they make ONE MISTAKE, ONE WORD, ONE PUNCTUATION ERROR, the scroll they have done so far is immediately destroyed. Every letter of the Bible is of utmost importance to the Jews. Rewriting the Torah would only have been done by Jews. Nobody else cared about the Torah. It would be way, way out of character for Jews to violate this principle which has existed for at least 4000 years.
2) According to my somewhat limited research in this are, there is not one ancient reference to this occurring. A modern reference as a source for antiquities is mainly useless, even if written by "experts". Jospehus and Philo never mentioned this. Neither did Pliny. Do you have an ancient reference?
3) This would have been a major undertaking requiring many trained people and adequate funding. What specific organization did this and what were the names of a few of these scribes and rabbis? Since this was a major task physically which mad significant cultural implications, don't you think there would have been records kept?
4) There are numerous word for word quotes and reference to the Torah in later books which no one claims to have been rewritten, There are quotes and references in Psalms, most of the prophets and indirect references in Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon.

My guess is that if any person or organization had tried to rewrite the Torah, they would have been hauled into the street and stoned.

I believe the Greek you quoted may have read the Torah, as written by Moses around 3400 years ago, as dictated by God, and it may have made sense to him.
The Bible was first. The Greeks came later. Centuries later.

You are absolutely wrong. There is no divine inspiration in anyone saying that something can wear out. The bible is using that as a metaphor. It is nothing more than a figure of speech.

As far as the Torah, take up your argument with Dr Who. He is the one who is taking the words of the bible out of context and using them for his own ends. You and he are two of a kind.

The moral of the story is that you should leave the interpretation of the bible to religious scholars, and not make up stuff to try to prove the bible is equivalent to modern science.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

But if you see things get smaller and smaller the further away they are why can't you extend the reasoning and assume that from even further they would look even smaller?

Clue, you can

You really are clutching at straws

Do you believe people lived to be 800 years old?

 

[GBFan]

But if you see things get smaller and smaller the further away they are why can't you extend the reasoning and assume that from even further they would look even smaller?

Clue, you can

You really are clutching at straws

Do you believe people lived to be 800 years old?

... and you are swinging at windmills.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

It ain't me who believes the shit in the bible

One of you above thinks that knowing things look smaller from a distance proves God's existence FFS

And that people look like grasshoppers

It is just bizarre

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

The bible is demonstrably wrong on loads of stuff and yet you talk about it as a book of science

Just shows how utterly bereft of intelligence you need to be to be a Christian

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Anyone fancy taking on the idea that people lived to be 800 when the book claiming that also says a lifespan is 70 years?

Come on you scientists out there with your trusty manual about magic tricks

Or are you just going to believe in divinity because things look smaller from a distance

Amazing scientific rigour in that one grasshopper