Should toturing be allowed?

fruits of torture

I remember seeing a TV special about a study of torture. There were several surprising findings. One was that the actual purpose of torture is more likely to be for the "pleasure" of the person doing the torture than to extract any useful military information. It was claimed that torture rarely if ever results in useful information.
Another was that the tortured person would make up things to tell his tormentor to the point where fact was harder to sort out from fiction.

In the current situation in the world, I wonder how many innocent people have been tortured, released to become terrorists because of how they were treated. Remember that the current practice in Iraq seems to be to arrest everyone in the vicinity of an incident and "hold them for questioning."
How many terrorists are made when a family member is "held for questioning"?
 
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Abraxis Axis said:
theres that Braggadicio again
quite fond of it i see .Frankly I could care less if you have ever been shot at. And your arrogant self seems to forget the fact that many of the folks here online have also travelled thousands of miles from home in order to serve theyre country

Im sure your not the only swingin D*ck who has been shot at in theatre as a matter of fact i know your not....funny i dont see the others spew on about as you do though...yes when it was raised as whether or not your genuine i can see why now



hey everyone Palerider needs some acknowledgment of his prowess as a past soldier he longs for your acceptance .this is why he continues to toot his horn...........you all have at least one member i am POSITIVE has given FAR MORE of himself than pale ever imagined................. and he NEVER EVEN MENTIONS IT.................pale has mentioned it many times...those who know dont disuss it as candidly as our friend pale here does.
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I've been shot at, several times. Those innercity gangs do NOT like you trying to keep their latest opposing faction member laying in a puddle of his own guts alive. Thank god for EMS issues body armor right? Though I suppose this has little bearing on the discussion, no one cares that he's been shot at. It lends no credence to his support of torture. As for his argument concerning the british and their rifle lines, this is completely different to that and that point hold absolutely as much purpose as my stories about being shot at by some guy in a blue bandana or red bandana, depending on the day of the week. Currently war is fought with a heavy amount of technology, the battlescape is ever evolving as are our tactics. to equate ground fighting tactics to torture chambers in any analogy is ridiculous. We do modify our tactics in fighting the war. Torture is not a strategy it is inhumanity. The information coming from the tortured is always more suspect than testomony from a pathological liar. To support torture makes you a very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very sick person.
 
r0beph said:
Torture is not a strategy it is inhumanity. The information coming from the tortured is always more suspect than testomony from a pathological liar. To support torture makes you a very sick person.
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dahermit said:
I remember seeing a TV special about a study of torture. There were several surprising findings. One was that the actual purpose of torture is more likely to be for the "pleasure" of the person doing the torture than to extract any useful military information. It was claimed that torture rarely if ever results in useful information.
Another was that the tortured person would make up things to tell his tormentor to the point where fact was harder to sort out from fiction.

In the current situation in the world, I wonder how many innocent people have been tortured, released to become terrorists because of how they were treated. Remember that the current practice in Iraq seems to be to arrest everyone in the vicinity of an incident and "hold them for questioning."
How many terrorists are made when a family member is "held for questioning"?
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Amen! Very good posts, thank you for your perceptive contributions.:)
 
Mare Tranquillity said:
What a sad and ugly way to live.

You didn't answer my questions, Pale.

After thinking about this for a couple of hours I think anyone who feels somewhat like Pale does should watch the movie V is for Vendetta. Pale, like many religions, is selling fear, he talks power and stirs up fears in others to justify brutality in a pointless attempt to quell his own fear. Frightened people who give in to their fears torture others, it takes great strength to compassionate in face of fear.
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That's a good movie....


I oppose torture, but some of what Pale says is correct. When you go to war, you better go in prepared to win. War is not going to be polite, neat, bloodless.

That being said it makes all the more important that war truely is a last resort and not because of the misbegotten ambitions of a bunch of ideological political nation builders who themselves managed to avoid serving in conflict.
 
dahermit said:
I remember seeing a TV special about a study of torture. There were several surprising findings. One was that the actual purpose of torture is more likely to be for the "pleasure" of the person doing the torture than to extract any useful military information. It was claimed that torture rarely if ever results in useful information.
Another was that the tortured person would make up things to tell his tormentor to the point where fact was harder to sort out from fiction.

In the current situation in the world, I wonder how many innocent people have been tortured, released to become terrorists because of how they were treated. Remember that the current practice in Iraq seems to be to arrest everyone in the vicinity of an incident and "hold them for questioning."
How many terrorists are made when a family member is "held for questioning"?
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Exactly!!
 
Coyote said:
That's a good movie....


I oppose torture, but some of what Pale says is correct. When you go to war, you better go in prepared to win. War is not going to be polite, neat, bloodless.

That being said it makes all the more important that war truely is a last resort and not because of the misbegotten ambitions of a bunch of ideological political nation builders who themselves managed to avoid serving in conflict.
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Tortue is not war, it is beastiality at it's worst. Killing is one thing, torture is totally another.
 
Mare Tranquillity said:
Tortue is not war, it is beastiality at it's worst. Killing is one thing, torture is totally another.
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Torture is a real slippery slope. Once you engage in it, you lose any moral credability you might have had.

I have heard arguments in defense of torture on the immediate battlefield, to gain quick information in order to save one's comrades.

Then there is the institutinalized brutality and torture in Abu Ghraib and other prisons, as well as in the "extraordinary rendition" where prisoners are sent to other countries specifically to be tortured so the US keeps it's public hands clean. In addition, many of the people picked up in these cases were picked up in broad sweeps or with little more then hearsay justifying it. I think any information that could conceivably have been picked up is not enough to outweight the damage done to the US by these actions.

Do you think there is any difference in the two sorts of torture? Is one more justifiable then the other?
 
Mare Tranquillity said:
What a sad and ugly way to live.

You didn't answer my questions, Pale.

After thinking about this for a couple of hours I think anyone who feels somewhat like Pale does should watch the movie V is for Vendetta. Pale, like many religions, is selling fear, he talks power and stirs up fears in others to justify brutality in a pointless attempt to quell his own fear. Frightened people who give in to their fears torture others, it takes great strength to compassionate in face of fear.
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We have an enemy that operates at a level of brutality that you apparently can't imagine. They treat their own women worse than any detainee that we might have. We are fighting an enemy that cuts heads off for fun and percieves any mercy on our part as weakness which further goads them on towards their own victory. If you don't know your enemy and respond to him appropriately, you will lose.
 
The original post was not discussing the current enemy. It was discussing the torture of an American citizen, suspected of something. and the question was is it oke to torture an american citizen.....although thats not what the title reads..............

cutting off heads for fun? come on now.....you arent that brainwashed are you? they dont do it for fun and maybe they dont do it at all? but it isnt for fun.......not in theyre minds anyways

some people are so gullable
 
palerider said:
We have an enemy that operates at a level of brutality that you apparently can't imagine. They treat their own women worse than any detainee that we might have. We are fighting an enemy that cuts heads off for fun and percieves any mercy on our part as weakness which further goads them on towards their own victory. If you don't know your enemy and respond to him appropriately, you will lose.
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You've lost me in your logic, perhaps it's so well woven that I simply cannot break through the intellect required to understand what you're saying? No that's not it. You're just applying bad concepts to your ideal. The fact that they torture, mistreat their women, and cut heads off (for effect in video to monger fear, or for festivities, whatever the why) has NO bearing on their combat. The fight we have against them is not effected by their treatment of prisoners. Now I'd support this formula where enemy does A and We do B so A >= B to succeed. but in this case this really has no bearing on the war. their brutality towards incapacitated prisoners will not change for the better when we begin torturing people who may or may not be deserving. Care to explain how torture equates to winning any battle in this conflict?
 
Rokerijdude11 said:
The original post was not discussing the current enemy. It was discussing the torture of an American citizen, suspected of something. and the question was is it oke to torture an american citizen.....although thats not what the title reads..............

cutting off heads for fun? come on now.....you arent that brainwashed are you? they dont do it for fun and maybe they dont do it at all? but it isnt for fun.......not in theyre minds anyways

some people are so gullable
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That's what I kind of wonder about...how far do you lower yourselves once you start the torture game? Can we and have we gone to far?

Is it justifiable to do it because they do it and even if we do it, it's not quite as bad?
 
I hate that idea to coyote , that we can or should because they do. I mean if it's a broadly applied methodology, does that mean to protect a child from a pedophile you should have sex with the kid? ABSOLUTELY NOT, sick. But that's what you're saying. Remember. you said it. Not me.
 
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r0beph said:
I hate that idea to coyote , that we can or should because they do. I mean if it's a broadly applied methodology, does that mean to protect a child from a pedophile you should have sex with the kid? ABSOLUTELY NOT, sick. But that's what you're saying. Remember. you said it. Not me.
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No that is not what I'm saying - it is not what I agree with. I often hear the argument in defense of torture go something like this (in defense of Abu Ghraib etc.) - at least we aren't sawing off their heads with dull knives - as if as long as we don't go quite that far, we are justified and people shouldn't be griping.

I don't happen to agree. I think once institutionalized torture begins then we have already lost.
 
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