Pandora
Well-Known Member
They were hated long before palistine invented its self and they will be hated long after palistine is a memory.
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Rand Paul
- Thread starter Gipper
- Start date
They were hated long before palistine invented its self and they will be hated long after palistine is a memory.
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Pandora
Well-Known Member
I'll come up in the very middle of the points Pandora and Pocket are making.
There are valid points from both here.
I see Pan as correct that Israel is our only true Ally in this very important region. And they have been attacked from all sides over the years by the Arabs wanting to wipe them out. And with the huge lobby they have here in the US they are going to continue to get a huge amount of support from US. I'm pretty sure I can't agree though that the US should have attacked China because of the Tibet issue.
I see Pocket as correct in the facts that Israel takes huge (monsterous) chunks of US financhal & military support and then seems to almost find pleasure in not proceeding with the agreed upon game plan. And I have to agree also that the US puts military bases all over these Arab & Muslim countries when we know that the vast VAST majority of the indiginous people absolutely do not want us there. There might be a leader that allows us to be there... but the people themselves hate it. That's a big problem.
Go job of bringing up strong points on both sides.
I think we would be foolish to attack China over Tibet but morally speaking we should defend Tibet IMO, but I know we would lose for the efforts. We can not beat China. So I fully admit its not smart to do but I still think it would be morally ok.
As for Israel, I would be happy if our help to them would be just to stop giving money to their enemies and buy as little oil as possible from them also.
They kicked *** in the 6 day war, they are tough little buggers and really dont need our help but they dont need us hurting them either by giving money to other countries that hate them or buying oil from said countries exc.
pocketfullofshells
Well-Known Member
Yea so the people of Palestine...there long before Israel was created after WWII...Odd they did not enjoy having a nation forced on them with a government that did not listen to them or care about them...
its not like Israel was some vacant land, and then the UN said, here said the jews here and they can have it....People where there before...
also Where was the big anti American feeling in the middle east....Before Israel was created....realy..
pocketfullofshells
Well-Known Member
I'll come up in the very middle of the points Pandora and Pocket are making.
There are valid points from both here.
I see Pan as correct that Israel is our only true Ally in this very important region. And they have been attacked from all sides over the years by the Arabs wanting to wipe them out. And with the huge lobby they have here in the US they are going to continue to get a huge amount of support from US. I'm pretty sure I can't agree though that the US should have attacked China because of the Tibet issue.
I see Pocket as correct in the facts that Israel takes huge (monsterous) chunks of US financhal & military support and then seems to almost find pleasure in not proceeding with the agreed upon game plan. And I have to agree also that the US puts military bases all over these Arab & Muslim countries when we know that the vast VAST majority of the indiginous people absolutely do not want us there. There might be a leader that allows us to be there... but the people themselves hate it. That's a big problem.
Go job of bringing up strong points on both sides.
They are our only ally ...well not realy though we have others....just the only powerful one...and only powerful because we armed them....WE could just as easy back some other nation, ignore Israel, and fund it as well as we did Israel....and get better results I bet. They are are "only" ally, becuse they are are ally...
Pandora
Well-Known Member
Israel was the land of Jewish/Hebrew people long before Mohammed invented Islam or a person decided to call them selves palistinians.
They were given their land back after WW2, I personally think they shoud have faught to get it back, that would have settled it I also do not think it was the UN who said it, England controlled Israel at that time didnt they?
The middle east will always have an anti american feeling, they wont be happy till we (the great satan) are dead or converted and the Israel (the little satan) is just flat dead.
pocketfullofshells
Well-Known Member
By that logic the US should get the hell out, since Natives where here before us ...But since you want to try to go back 2000 years and base US policy on that...you got alot of other issues we need to take up...Fact is, there was No Israel..Zero...and the people who lived there had every right to live there...and Israel kicked forced them out and took there homes. But hell lets give it back to Rome...after all it was the Romans there first right? or who was before that? ,,,,,,
Pandora
Well-Known Member
Romans were there first? No, the romans occupied Israel land hundreds of years after the fact. Then Muslims took it. That is my point, its only respected as a groups if they fight for it. Israel should have fought for it like every one else did.
I have no problem with kicking you out and leaving the land to us natives
But truth is you guys won it fair and square in a nasty war. And it will be yours till you lose it in a war.Back to Rand Paul,
Do you have a link to him on camera talking about civil rights? I am curious to what he said.
There is some considerable danger in the US trying to become the World Police Department. Sometimes you have to let foreign regions work out there own destiny.
I agree with you Israel does have a very powerful military. That's exactly why I say if they really don't want to go with an American game plan for the region then they should be allowed to fight on their own without US weaponry & billions of dollars in yearly US funding.
As far as the oil. It is where it is. And the environmentally safest places to extract it just happens to be the Middle East. I am very (ecstatically) pleased that the Obama administration has moved so quickly to address not only raising mileage standards significantly but an overall comprehensive energy security and independence initiative.
Well they are our only really strong and fully capable one.
The whole religious based dynamic in this region makes for a serious problem with Muslim nations and the US as far as dependability. The leader of some of these Muslim countries may be a US supporter but the people themselves... really not so much.
But your point is well taken. And in fact Israel is not quite as important strategically as it was years ago due to the super long range capabilities of both modern US bombers and land & sea based missiles.
pocketfullofshells
Well-Known Member
But again how much of that lack of support by the people...is due to support of Israel...
I feel like saying which came first the chicken or the egg, lol!
I think the support of Israel is an issue to them... but they aren't all that keen on Crusading Christians either.
I feel like saying which came first the chicken or the egg, lol!
I think the support of Israel is an issue to them... but they aren't all that keen on Crusading Christians either.
I don't think I would make quite so lightly of Israel and their desire for U.S. support. Will they take matters into their own hands if they must? Yes. However, I don't think that means they don't want U.S. support. As far as their feelings on "crusading Christians" they don't feel the same being Jews as Muslims feel. In fact their would be a lot of common factors for Christians and Jews to work together being that Islamic fascist would like to wipe us both out.
Go back and read my preceding posts to the one you misinterpreted.
I was clearly referring to Muslims not liking Crusading Christians not the Jews. Take a look...
pocketfullofshells
Well-Known Member
I feel like saying which came first the chicken or the egg, lol!
I think the support of Israel is an issue to them... but they aren't all that keen on Crusading Christians either.
true, but of course if we did not back Israel we would be view so much less...
If we want the middle east to like us, Stop backing Israel...and stop backing Dictators...Iran is prefect example of what happens when we don't back bad leaders....the public has to point at own leaders for there problems...not US influence on there leaders...and its as close to arab Democracy as we have in the area...and as close to Pro west as you can find ( in large parts of public not government of course)
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Go back and read my preceding posts to the one you misinterpreted.
I was clearly referring to Muslims not liking Crusading Christians not the Jews. Take a look...
My apologies I did miss read your previous statement.
