Progressive Bushs stick their foot in their mouths...again

[Gipper]

George W. Bush is a progressive ? LOL ! That's rich ! He's no more a progressive than the Pope is pro-choice or Ahmedinijad is pro Israel !
He's a born-again evangelical Christian with strong ties to the religious right . Sheesh ! Throughout his disastrous presidency he was always kissing the behinds of the leaders of the religious right, which is the American Taliban .

It always surprises me when Lefties fail to realize that W was a HUGE progressive....I really shouldn't be surprised considering how out of touch most lefties are...but I am. How do they fail to recognize one of their own? Are they that blind to reality? (rhetorical questions)

Hey Bobbyboy, read Gen's post above which clearly lays out some of the progressive actions committed by W. In addition to those FACTS, W created new entiltment programs you no doubt LOVE...No Child Left Behind (but they are still way behind) and Free Drugs for Geezers.

You lefties should IDOLIZE W like you do BO. The two presidents have much in common.

And come now, if a D had started wars in Iraq and Afghan you would have been okay with it as much of the Left is okay with BO's military actions today.

 

[BigRob]

It always surprises me when Lefties fail to realize that W was a HUGE progressive....I really shouldn't be surprised considering how out of touch most lefties are...but I am. How do they fail to recognize one of their own? Are they that blind to reality? (rhetorical questions)

Hey Bobbyboy, read Gen's post above which clearly lays out some of the progressive actions committed by W. In addition to those FACTS, W created new entiltment programs you no doubt LOVE...No Child Left Behind (but they are still way behind) and Free Drugs for Geezers.

You lefties should IDOLIZE W like you do BO. The two presidents have much in common.

And come now, if a D had started wars in Iraq and Afghan you would have been okay with it as much of the Left is okay with BO's military actions today.

How do you define "progressive"? And how do you define "conservative"?

 

[Gipper]

How do you define "progressive"? And how do you define "conservative"?

Oh please stop with the need for definitions. I will accept the definition in wiki. Does that work for you?

I have posted here a long time. During that time I have stated many times W is a progressive and shown proof of his progressive nature.

 

[BigRob]

Oh please stop with the need for definitions. I will accept the definition in wiki. Does that work for you?

I have posted here a long time. During that time I have stated many times W is a progressive and shown proof of his progressive nature.

I know you have stated it many times -- and I take no issue with you stating that.

But I am legitimately curious -- what makes a progressive vs a conservative? Is there no room for compromise? Are you a conservative only if believe X at all times -- or is there wiggle room to get a compromise?

 

[Gipper]

I know you have stated it many times -- and I take no issue with you stating that.

But I am legitimately curious -- what makes a progressive vs a conservative? Is there no room for compromise? Are you a conservative only if believe X at all times -- or is there wiggle room to get a compromise?

If you disagree with my defining W and HW as progressives, tell me why?

Compromise? How does one compromise with expanding the welfare state with new entitlement programs, blows up the deficit, spends trillions on overseas wars that accomplish very little and against an enemy that did not attack us, etc......??? You are a conservative. How can you accept this as the actions of a conservative?

The only conservative thing W did in office I can think of off the top, is he lower taxes (but was too weak to make them permanent resulting in the continuing disaster the Rs face in renewing them).

Please outline for me conservative policies W advocated and instituted?

 

[BigRob]

If you disagree with my defining W and HW as progressives, tell me why?

I don't disagree persay -- I just want to know the criteria used.

If I don't blow up the deficit -- am I conservative?
If I don't spend trillions on overseas wars that accomplish little -- am I conservative?

There has to be more.

Compromise? How does one compromise with expanding the welfare state with new entitlement programs, blows up the deficit, spends trillions on overseas wars that accomplish very little and against an enemy that did not attack us, etc......??? You are a conservative. How can you accept this as the actions of a conservative?

The only conservative thing W did in office I can think of off the top, is he lower taxes (but was too weak to make them permanent resulting in the continuing disaster the Rs face in renewing them).

Please outline for me conservative policies W advocated and instituted?

Hence my question of what defines a conservative.

 

[Gipper]

I don't disagree persay -- I just want to know the criteria used.

If I don't blow up the deficit -- am I conservative?
If I don't spend trillions on overseas wars that accomplish little -- am I conservative?

There has to be more.



Hence my question of what defines a conservative.

How about this....if a president advocates and enacts policies that are more progressive than conservative overall, is that president a conservative or a progressive? Bill Clinton did a few conservative things in office (welfare reform for one, which BO is now unraveling), but no one refers to him as a conservative.

Bush was without question a moderate progressive. I base this ENTIRELY on his record as president. Yes, he did a few conservative things but looking at the entire 8 years one is hard pressed to find much conservatism in it. He pushed for privatization of SS, which was a conservative policy. But, he failed to take his case to the American people and allowed the Ds to demigod the issue, as he did with most issues. Hence, he lost the debate and gave up. Other than the tax cuts, what laws did he enact that you can claim are conservative?

It is very important for people to know the truth about their political leaders. Placing the correct label on a politician is EXTREMELY important even though some foolish Americans find this unseemly. Bush was a progressive. Had Americans known this about W, they might not have elected a socialist.

 

[GenSeneca]

Is there no room for compromise?

On matters of principle? No, there is not...

Argument to moderation (false compromise, middle ground, fallacy of the mean) – assuming that the compromise between two positions is always correct.​

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The Left wants to enslave every individual to the will of the collective.
I'd rather be free than a slave to the collective.
What "compromise" would you have me make?
We have already "compromised" our way into partial slavery, how will further compromising on my principles lead to my freedom?

 

[BigRob]

On matters of principle? No, there is not...

Argument to moderation (false compromise, middle ground, fallacy of the mean) – assuming that the compromise between two positions is always correct​

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This is not really relevant -- since I am not arguing the compromise is better -- I am just asking if a compromise like the one I outline -- backing a bank for a solid round of tax cuts would make me conservative or progressive.​

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The Left wants to enslave every individual to the will of the collective.
I'd rather be free than a slave to the collective.
What "compromise" would you have me make?
We have already "compromised" our way into partial slavery, how will further compromising on my principles lead to my freedom?

This is not really what I was asking -- what I want to know is -- what defines a conservative? What defines a progressive? Am I suddenly a progressive if I cut a deal or make a concession like bailing out a bank if I am able to enact a huge piece of conservative legislation?

 

[GenSeneca]

This is not really relevant -- since I am not arguing the compromise is better ...

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Well lets look at the example you offered... Compromising on bailouts in order to "enact a huge piece of conservative legislation", it certainly sounds like you are arguing that it is worth compromising in one area in order to get something you want done in another. If that is the case, it is fallacious logic. In any compromise, Conservatives will always lose ground and Progressives will always gain ground. The only way to return our country to the Conservative principles it was founded upon is to defeat Progressives, period. Compromise and they win every time.

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This is not really what I was asking -- what I want to know is -- what defines a conservative?

Classical Liberalism: a political ideology that advocates limited government, constitutionalism, rule of law, due process, individual liberties including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.

What defines a progressive?

Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.

Am I suddenly a progressive if I cut a deal or make a concession like bailing out a bank if I am able to enact a huge piece of conservative legislation?

In a word: Yes, it does make you a Progressive. By making concessions or compromising with the Progressives, you are doing more to help the Progressive agenda than the Conservative agenda, regardless of how "huge" you believe the Conservative gains to be.

You offered the specific example of the bailouts as being Progressive but the "huge piece of conservative legislation" is vague and specious. Go ahead and assign a specific value to that " conservative legislation" and no matter what it is, the Progressives come out ahead. For now, let's call it an across the board tax cut, same as the Bush Tax Cuts. Now let's consider which is more difficult to undo; is it easier for Progressives to raise taxes next time they have the votes, or for Conservatives to go back in time in order to never do a bailout?

Think about the biggest Progressive accomplishments and compare them to the biggest Conservative accomplishments in the history of our country... Can you name a Conservative accomplishment that could hold a candle to the Welfare State? I can't think of any "wins" on the Conservative side that could match that.

So your defense of Bush as being something other than a Progressive must be looked in terms of what he actually did... His most Progressive accomplishment was the largest expansion of the Welfare State since LBJ and the Great Society. What possible accomplishment(s) could you credit to the "Conservative" column that could be bigger than that? His tax cuts? They aren't permanent but his massive expansion of the Welfare State is.

 

[BigRob]

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Well lets look at the example you offered... Compromising on bailouts in order to "enact a huge piece of conservative legislation", it certainly sounds like you are arguing that it is worth compromising in one area in order to get something you want done in another. If that is the case, it is fallacious logic. In any compromise, Conservatives will always lose ground and Progressives will always gain ground. The only way to return our country to the Conservative principles it was founded upon is to defeat Progressives, period. Compromise and they win every time.

No -- I am taking no position -- other than asking if such action would make me a progressive. If I govern from a generally conserative ideology, and cave in a few areas -- am I suddenly a raging progressive?

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Classical Liberalism: a political ideology that advocates limited government, constitutionalism, rule of law, due process, individual liberties including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.

Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.

I don't think this is exactly what progressives in this country want.

In a word: Yes, it does make you a Progressive. By making concessions or compromising with the Progressives, you are doing more to help the Progressive agenda than the Conservative agenda, regardless of how "huge" you believe the Conservative gains to be.

It sounds to me that we have created this idea of "conservative" which does note exist.

You offered the specific example of the bailouts as being Progressive but the "huge piece of conservative legislation" is vague and specious. Go ahead and assign a specific value to that " conservative legislation" and no matter what it is, the Progressives come out ahead. For now, let's call it an across the board tax cut, same as the Bush Tax Cuts. Now let's consider which is more difficult to undo; is it easier for Progressives to raise taxes next time they have the votes, or for Conservatives to go back in time in order to never do a bailout?

Think about the biggest Progressive accomplishments and compare them to the biggest Conservative accomplishments in the history of our country... Can you name a Conservative accomplishment that could hold a candle to the Welfare State? I can't think of any "wins" on the Conservative side that could match that.

So your defense of Bush as being something other than a Progressive must be looked in terms of what he actually did... His most Progressive accomplishment was the largest expansion of the Welfare State since LBJ and the Great Society. What possible accomplishment(s) could you credit to the "Conservative" column that could be bigger than that? His tax cuts? They aren't permanent but his massive expansion of the Welfare State is.

I am not interested in discussing the welfare state and whatnot -- I am simply interested in the idea that it seems many hold that anyone who ever strays in the least bit from some rigid ideology must be branded with the scarlet letter of progressive.

I don't get it -- progressives also believe that we need to bring all the troops home -- is Ron Paul a progressive -- is anyone who calls for the troops to come home progressive? To take your logic on the matter -- yes -- he is a progressive, and any conservative record he has established is null in void.

Who is it that is a real conservative?

 

[Gipper]

No -- I am taking no position -- other than asking if such action would make me a progressive. If I govern from a generally conserative ideology, and cave in a few areas -- am I suddenly a raging progressive?

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I don't think this is exactly what progressives in this country want.



It sounds to me that we have created this idea of "conservative" which does note exist.



I am not interested in discussing the welfare state and whatnot -- I am simply interested in the idea that it seems many hold that anyone who ever strays in the least bit from some rigid ideology must be branded with the scarlet letter of progressive.

I don't get it -- progressives also believe that we need to bring all the troops home -- is Ron Paul a progressive -- is anyone who calls for the troops to come home progressive? To take your logic on the matter -- yes -- he is a progressive, and any conservative record he has established is null in void.

Who is it that is a real conservative?

A lot there I do not agree with.

Because conservative politicians do not exist, you conclude true conservatism does not exist. That is completely nonsensical.

And because some progressives may find the REAL definition of their tyrannical ideology unappealling, you think the definition inaccurate. That too is nonsensical.

 

[BigRob]

A lot there I do not agree with.

Because conservative politicians do not exist, you conclude true conservatism does not exist. That is completely nonsensical.

And because some progressives may find the REAL definition of their tyrannical ideology unappealling, you think the definition inaccurate. That too is nonsensical.

Is there anyone who is a politician that you view as conservative? Federal, State, Local level? Anywhere?

 

[Gipper]

Is there anyone who is a politician that you view as conservative? Federal, State, Local level? Anywhere?

I have asked you many questions in this thread and you have yet to answer any of them.

I will answer you...however.

We have a congressman in Michigan who is conservative. Justin Amash. I would include Jim DeMint. There are a few more, but not many. Does that mean the true meaning of conservatism has changed? Or does it mean that moderate progressives like W and McCain and most of the R party are now to be consider conservatives?

 

[BigRob]

I have asked you many questions in this thread and you have yet to answer any of them.

The only one I saw was to defend Bush as a conservative -- I am not interested in doing that -- I am more interested in getting people's perspective of what makes a conservative etc.

If I missed any others -- I apologize -- I will try to go back and answer any you point out.

I will answer you...however.

Thank you.

We have a congressman in Michigan who is conservative. Justin Amash. I would include Jim DeMint. There are a few more, but not many. Does that mean the true meaning of conservatism has changed? Or does it mean that moderate progressives like W and McCain and most of the R party are now to be consider conservatives?

I am not familiar with Justin Amash's voting record -- I will have to do some research before I can really say much on that subject -- and I will delve more into Senator DeMint's vote history as well.