Oregon passes tax increases on corporations and the wealthy..

[dogtowner]

Because you are unable to defend your position, you have nothing else to offer but personal attacks.

Remember what Mare said about mutually beneficial exchanges? You should, you agreed with Mare that these were necessary for society, you even chided me for not understanding this simple concept yet you are the one who, so far, has argued against this concept.

I have no problem with mutually beneficial exchanges, I am happy to pay taxes for services that protect my life, rights and property - courts, police, fire, etc. It's the taxes that provide nothing to my benefit in return for my money that are offensive, and you cannot mount an argument as to why I should be forced to sacrifice for the benefit of another. That's all you have to do, make the case for why a society of mutually beneficial exchanges is wrong and a society that violates the rights of some, for the benefit of others, through the use of force, is right.

because its for po folks or poitical cronies or some other demographic that needs to have its votes bought ?

 

[Pandora]

I haven't been part of this conversation, but I'll jump in to add...

I am a California state employee. Last year our union voted to take a 10% furlough in lieu of laying off workers. I'm the senior member of my division and would not have been laid off, but voted to take a pay cut so that some of the newer staff kept their jobs.

That cost me over $4,000 dollars this year.

I'm a socialist patriot, who cares about my fellow workers.

I do not see where you took a "pay cut"

You took furlough days, that means you dont work and you dont get paid.

A pay cut would be if you worked and got paid less.

We took furlough days too but after our cola and step increase we were making 14 dollars a month more than before we took the furlough days.

I would have rather we take an actual pay cut and stayed open so the children could go to school.

 

[Pandora]

Nobody looks forward to tax increases... but the bottom line is if the cuts just simply cannot be made and still have a decent standard of services then you have to go where the money is and where it will hurt people the least.

This should come as no big surprise because almost everybody starts out with very little so they should be able to relate. A thousand dollars is a whole lot more important and necessary to a family making 50K than it is to an individual making over 250K.

Top Gun, the taxes passed in Oregon are for one purpose. To give raises to government employees and bail out our PERS.

If we would have agreed to take a pay cut during the hard times rather than ask business and "the rich" to pay our way it would have worked out better.

People who are already paying a very high tax are getting tired of it, some will leave, leaving less revenue. Some business's will have to scale back or shut down, heck many have already closed the doors because of things being so slow. None of that is going to help our state.

The private sector is suffering greatly, why do the people I work with in the public sector think they should not suffer some too? I feel terrible when I meet parents who have lost thier jobs or been cut back while I enjoy pay raises and my retirement plan being bailed out.

 

[citizenzen]

It's the taxes that provide nothing to my benefit in return for my money that are offensive...

Some benefits may be too subtle for even your keen spidey-senses to detect.

Name a tax that you think provides you no benefit, and I'll do a little research to find out if that truly is the case.

The question needs to be raised: Do taxes really provide you no benefit? Or are you ignorant or willfully blind to the benefit they provide?

Guess which one I think is true.

 

[citizenzen]

I do not see where you took a "pay cut"

You took furlough days, that means you dont work and you dont get paid.

My union actually agrees with you. By calling this a furlough I avoided any change in my actual pay rate. In the end though, it's $4,000 less dollars in the bank than I made last year.

Pardon me for my imprecise use of words.

 

[GenSeneca]

Some benefits may be too subtle for even your keen spidey-senses to detect.

All you have to do, is make the case for why a society of mutually beneficial exchanges is wrong and a society that violates the rights of some, for the benefit of others, through the use of force, is right.

Can you make such a case or not?

 

[Pandora]

My union actually agrees with you. By calling this a furlough I avoided any change in my actual pay rate. In the end though, it's $4,000 less dollars in the bank than I made last year.

Pardon me for my imprecise use of words.

the union agreed you were not taking a pay cut or did it agree that you should take a pay cut instead of furlough?

my union "the bunch of greedy mobsters that they are" did not want to take a pay cut or go without raises ir step increases. Now that we have been able to soak the rich and business we will get the furlough days back plus more step increases this year and another cola.

While people I know are laid off, hours cut, wages cut and not making it very well at all... we get everything we want.

It just does not seem right to me.

 

[citizenzen]

the union agreed you were not taking a pay cut or did it agree that you should take a pay cut instead of furlough?

My pay rate is still the same as it was before, but because I'm working fewer days my overall salary is less. It technically isn't a pay cut as my hourly wages were not affected... just the number of days with which I am working at that rate.

I hope that helps to clear it up.

 

[Pandora]

My pay rate is still the same as it was before, but because I'm working fewer days my overall salary is less. It technically isn't a pay cut as my hourly wages were not affected... just the number of days with which I am working at that rate.

I hope that helps to clear it up.

Oh I understood. I just did not want someone else to read it and think you actually took a pay cut.

If you were in Oregon you could get the furlough days back, your cola and step increase and a PERS bail out too!

What state are you in?

 

[citizenzen]

All you have to do, is make the case for why a society of mutually beneficial exchanges is wrong and a society that violates the rights of some, for the benefit of others, through the use of force, is right.

Why would I make an argument that mutually beneficial exchanges are wrong? And I love how you define the other side as one that "violates rights" through the "use of force".

I tell you what GenSeneca, why don't you ask me to make an argument for Darth Vader, and against the cute little puppy that he's about to crush under his heel? That's about as realistic as the choices you've put forth.

 

[citizenzen]

What state are you in?

One state south... only about 100 miles from the Oregon border. Weekends in Ashland are the best.

 

[Pandora]

One state south... only about 100 miles from the Oregon border. Weekends in Ashland are the best.

Ashland drives me crazy. It wont be long till Eugene becomes just like them. But I can see why you might like it. You probably like everything I hate about it

 

[citizenzen]

Ashland drives me crazy. It wont be long till Eugene becomes just like them. But I can see why you might like it. You probably like everything I hate about it

Cute little town nestled against the mountains?

World class theater?

Gawd I HATE that!!!

 

[Pandora]

Cute little town nestled against the mountains?

World class theater?

Gawd I HATE that!!!

Yeah

that is the good part

 

[GenSeneca]

Why would I make an argument that mutually beneficial exchanges are wrong?

Because you believe in the forced redistribution of wealth.

I love how you define the other side as one that "violates rights" through the "use of force".

You cannot defend your position as being anything else.