No more whaling! No more poaching! No more killing!

[Bunz]

Lupis, the concept of God, is a human idea. Humans have a superior brain and are able to reason and come up with the concept of God by eating protien. Without ancient humans eating meat, you would still be grazing grass fields in Asia/Africa somewhere. As you posted in the thread starter, no more poaching...this is not poaching. Every usable part of the whale is used. I would suggest you do some additional research before you begin spouting off about things you dont know about. Keep in mind, that if you believe in the Christian God, he created earth and its creatures for the use of by man. So you can stop that argument right now.

Mare, you mention the American diet and how it is killing us wholesale...that comes from processed food. Native Americans specifically Alaskans have huge problems with diabetes and obesity, due to the American western diet, that is being forced on them by the opinion of people like you. Its ironic how for generations while subsisting on wild creatures obesity and diabetes were unheard of. Now because due to the ignorance again of people like you and not wanting them to hunt, the limitations on that have forced people to turn to grocery stores and its heavily processed products which causes health problems.

Also to suggest whaling is somehow remotely close to commiting domestic violence is such a joke. Try comparing apples to apples next time.

Now that the conference is said and done, Native Alaskans continue to get thier whale quota, and the Japanese still have a ban.

Humans eating flesh is not a habit, it is necessary. Once again, protien and nutrients found in meat is a necessary part of the human diet, and dont try and pass off the virtues of vegan etc. to me because people in that lifestyle have to supplement thier nutritional needs to replace those missing elements.

While I agree with you on some things in terms of enviromental conservation, such as pit mines, Ill ask you to travel to the north slope of Alaska where the whaling takes place. Go there, tell me how many farms you see. We are talking an area the size of Montana, not a single farm, not a single cow, chicken, The people hunt caribou, birds, and marine mammals, they fish and pick berries for the main portion of thier diet. As they have been doing for generations. Then people like you come along and think you know what is best for us, then the US government exploits the resources, takes land, and forces an otherwise nomadic people into the western confines of a village, where you want us to not hunt, and pay outrageous prices for processed groceries which cause health problems in a major way. For a snapshot, here is a breakdown of some costs of items in my town in bush Alaska.
Gallon of Gas...$4.75
Gallon of Milk...$7.29
pound of hamburger...$4.59
tomatos per pound...5.09
Mare, I dont know where you live, but I would imagine you would find these prices a bit high. Well they are, and the next time you are filling up you gas tank, stop and think about where that gasoline comes from. If your on the west coast of the US, its a good chance it is Alaskan oil from the North Slope, so if you dont like natives hunting whales, do us a favor and dont use our resource. Until you even remotely understand how the process works on whaling and other subsistence activities just sit back, be quiet and drive you car, and listen to your CDs because the plastic they are made from comes from lots of Alaskan petroleum.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Mare, you mention the American diet and how it is killing us wholesale...that comes from processed food. Native Americans specifically Alaskans have huge problems with diabetes and obesity, due to the American western diet, that is being forced on them by the opinion of people like you. Its ironic how for generations while subsisting on wild creatures obesity and diabetes were unheard of. Now because due to the ignorance again of people like you and not wanting them to hunt, the limitations on that have forced people to turn to grocery stores and its heavily processed products which causes health problems.

Also to suggest whaling is somehow remotely close to commiting domestic violence is such a joke. Try comparing apples to apples next time.

Now that the conference is said and done, Native Alaskans continue to get thier whale quota, and the Japanese still have a ban.

Humans eating flesh is not a habit, it is necessary. Once again, protien and nutrients found in meat is a necessary part of the human diet, and dont try and pass off the virtues of vegan etc. to me because people in that lifestyle have to supplement thier nutritional needs to replace those missing elements.

While I agree with you on some things in terms of enviromental conservation, such as pit mines, Ill ask you to travel to the north slope of Alaska where the whaling takes place. Go there, tell me how many farms you see. We are talking an area the size of Montana, not a single farm, not a single cow, chicken, The people hunt caribou, birds, and marine mammals, they fish and pick berries for the main portion of thier diet. As they have been doing for generations. Then people like you come along and think you know what is best for us, then the US government exploits the resources, takes land, and forces an otherwise nomadic people into the western confines of a village, where you want us to not hunt, and pay outrageous prices for processed groceries which cause health problems in a major way. For a snapshot, here is a breakdown of some costs of items in my town in bush Alaska.
Gallon of Gas...$4.75
Gallon of Milk...$7.29
pound of hamburger...$4.59
tomatos per pound...5.09
Mare, I dont know where you live, but I would imagine you would find these prices a bit high. Well they are, and the next time you are filling up you gas tank, stop and think about where that gasoline comes from. If your on the west coast of the US, its a good chance it is Alaskan oil from the North Slope, so if you dont like natives hunting whales, do us a favor and dont use our resource. Until you even remotely understand how the process works on whaling and other subsistence activities just sit back, be quiet and drive you car, and listen to your CDs because the plastic they are made from comes from lots of Alaskan petroleum.

I don't know, Bunz, but if you think that 6.2 Billion people can live on this planet like indigenous people, then you need to do more research.

Vegans don't need any supplementation, your dietary knowledge is out of date. Vitamin B-12 used to be held up as the bugaboo, but since ALL the B-12 on the planet is made by bacteria and meat is only a good source because it's a good medium for the growth of bacteria, coupled with the fact that there is an intrisic factor in the human body that aids or impedes the absorbtion of B-12, vegans don't need to supplement anymore than anyone else. Spirulina is an excellent source of B-12.

In all the writing I have done on the subject, I have had little to say about indigenous people's living their traditional lifestyle, but the ugly fact is that civilization (so-called) corrupted and destroyed most of those cultures long before I was born. With 6.2 Billion people on the planet there is hardly any place for indigenous people to live and maintain even a SEMBLANCE of their original lifestyle. Mostly that is due to habitat destruction and the mechanized slaughter of the plant and animal populations by modern man. There are many endangered species in the world that I am in favor of protecting all of them. When we stop killing them and their numbers return to pre-civilized levels, then indigenous peoples will be welcome to return to their previous practices--using the weapons and tools that they used to use before being exposed to civilization.

I gather that you are arguing from the perspective of one of the indigenous people living in the far north. When you no longer use a steel knife, gun, snowmobile, airplane, or electricity, when you live in a traditional house made from locally available materials, when the population of people in your area and the number of animals in your area return to pre-civilized levels, then I'll have nothing more to say to you, but the fact is that the world that "was" is irretrievably gone. Without a cataclysm to destroy most of the human race the world that "was" cannot return.

The indigenous peoples and their cultures all over the Earth have been callously destroyed by "modern man" in his quest for domination and profit. I think that's a crime, I think that humanity has bred itself to the point where it's likely to drown in its own feces--but continuing to slaughter the dwindling populations of animals is not the answer. There are too many of us on this planet to live in a sane and sustainable way, I'm doing my part by living as small as I can, eating no sentient beings, and having no children.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Also to suggest whaling is somehow remotely close to commiting domestic violence is such a joke. Try comparing apples to apples next time.

Don't be as steadfastly dim as Cheshire, Bunz, the comparison is not between whaling and domestic abuse, the comparison is between TRADITIONAL activities. The concept was that just because something is traditional DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT IT'S STILL A GOOD IDEA.

 

[Bunz]

Mare, yes, I do write from an Alaskan Native perspective. I am of the Athabaskan tribe from central Alaska, and live in the Bristol Bay region of the state which is primarily habitated by the Yupik people. I live a subsistence lifestyle as much as is possible. So I will point out a few things for you. The poppulation of Alaska vs its entire size is well within its abilities to support a subsistence lifestyle and does so successfully for well over 100,000 people. While the notion of maintaining traditional ways is out of the question for most of the lower 48 and in most places in the rest of the world, wildlife resource management is done well here and many, many poppulations of fish and animals have even higher poppulations now than exsisted 150 years ago when the Russians showed up. Now I am in no way advocating for over harvest and do see the absolute need to protect several species that have been exploited i.e, sea otters and stellar sea lions.
Now the Inupiaq people have a quota for about 25 bowhead whales annually. This is out of a population in the Being Sea/Arctic Ocean of about 8,000. This harvest is done responsibly, in terms of not exploiting the levels of whales and its use of the entire whale.
The notion of every human becoming a vegan, just isnt going to happen. I hope we can agree to disagree on this account because I can see there be no middle ground on that end.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Mare, yes, I do write from an Alaskan Native perspective. I am of the Athabaskan tribe from central Alaska, and live in the Bristol Bay region of the state which is primarily habitated by the Yupik people. I live a subsistence lifestyle as much as is possible. So I will point out a few things for you. The poppulation of Alaska vs its entire size is well within its abilities to support a subsistence lifestyle and does so successfully for well over 100,000 people. While the notion of maintaining traditional ways is out of the question for most of the lower 48 and in most places in the rest of the world, wildlife resource management is done well here and many, many poppulations of fish and animals have even higher poppulations now than exsisted 150 years ago when the Russians showed up. Now I am in no way advocating for over harvest and do see the absolute need to protect several species that have been exploited i.e, sea otters and stellar sea lions.
Now the Inupiaq people have a quota for about 25 bowhead whales annually. This is out of a population in the Being Sea/Arctic Ocean of about 8,000. This harvest is done responsibly, in terms of not exploiting the levels of whales and its use of the entire whale.
The notion of every human becoming a vegan, just isnt going to happen. I hope we can agree to disagree on this account because I can see there be no middle ground on that end.

I think that if you will examine my posts you will discover that in no place, at no time have I ever advocated, recommended, demanded, asked for, or even suggested that every human could be vegan--that appears to be a complete fabrication on your part. Being a vegan is a philosophical attitude more than a dietary discipline, one has to decide for themselves that it is the right thing to do. No can be forced into it, nor should they be.

Do I think that a reduction in the volume of meat eaten by most Americans would be beneficial to their health? Without question. The Native people of the far north living almost exclusively on a meat-based diet had some of the shortest lifespans of any people on Earth, while indigenous people in the Andes who ate very small quantities of meat had some of the longest lifespans. If one looks at the digestive tracts of carnivores one will discover that they are very short, while herbivores have very long digestive tracts. Carnivores have much more and stronger acids in their digestive systems than herbivores. At best people are omnivorous--but like gorillas, we fare best on a diet high in plant fiber and fairly low in animal fat and proteins.

 

[9sublime]

Bunz, why are you on a computer if you try and lead a subsistence life, as traditionally as possible?

 

[Bunz]

Ok fair enough Mare on the vegan issue, now before I get to far I had another post that didnt load correctly, so for further debate purposes I will copy it in the text box.

Mare, I will also point out the idea that native cultures should live entirely as they did before western contact is a bit shortsighted. The adoption of western ways has been long forced down the throats of native peoples in the Americas. For instance, if one were to live in a dwelling that remotely resembled pre-contact structures, the children would be removed to a foster family(about %85 white) and the parents charged with child neglect.
I dont see any issue with using modern tools that are useful in traditional activities. There is still a matter of trade and the exchange of ideas between cultures that has exsisted as long as man has roamed the Earth. By your definition nobody but the Chinese should have guns, as they developed gun powder, only the English should have trains, only Americans airplanes, only the Arabs would know algebra, and any number of developments and inventions home only to the culture or country they originated in. One thing you will see a lot of is western tools adopted to fit traditional uses. A perfect example being the Ulu, a curved knife, that traditionally was made of bone, is still in the same shape but now made of steel.
What you suggest about living in modern times without any modern tools and technology isnt quite fair. For the most part native people have chosen what tools work for them, and at the same time had western values shoved down our throats.
For instance the snomobile as you call it(sno-go to us), you suggest we shouldnt use them, but at the same time I would be really curious to hear your thoughts on the use of dog sled teams i.e. the Iditarod, Yukon Quest. But what this really comes down to, is people being able to supplement thier diets with non-processed, fairly inexpensive, responsibly harvested meat that supplements an entire village for quite a long time. It is an entire community event and a beautiful example of humans working together for a greater cause than a single person's greed or desires. I would suggest visiting www.ktuu.com it is a local Anchorage TV station that did a several part story on whaling in the Arctic region, it will give you an incredible insight on the facts of the matter and not the hype of a animal rights group with a strict political agenda.

All of this being said, and on the original topic at hand which deals with whaling for commercial, subsistence, and research purposes, I said in my original post if it can be done in a responsible way should be allowed to go on...again only in a responsible manner.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Ok fair enough Mare on the vegan issue, now before I get to far I had another post that didnt load correctly, so for further debate purposes I will copy it in the text box.

Mare, I will also point out the idea that native cultures should live entirely as they did before western contact is a bit shortsighted. The adoption of western ways has been long forced down the throats of native peoples in the Americas. For instance, if one were to live in a dwelling that remotely resembled pre-contact structures, the children would be removed to a foster family(about %85 white) and the parents charged with child neglect.
I dont see any issue with using modern tools that are useful in traditional activities. There is still a matter of trade and the exchange of ideas between cultures that has exsisted as long as man has roamed the Earth. By your definition nobody but the Chinese should have guns, as they developed gun powder, only the English should have trains, only Americans airplanes, only the Arabs would know algebra, and any number of developments and inventions home only to the culture or country they originated in. One thing you will see a lot of is western tools adopted to fit traditional uses. A perfect example being the Ulu, a curved knife, that traditionally was made of bone, is still in the same shape but now made of steel.
What you suggest about living in modern times without any modern tools and technology isnt quite fair. For the most part native people have chosen what tools work for them, and at the same time had western values shoved down our throats.
For instance the snomobile as you call it(sno-go to us), you suggest we shouldnt use them, but at the same time I would be really curious to hear your thoughts on the use of dog sled teams i.e. the Iditarod, Yukon Quest. But what this really comes down to, is people being able to supplement thier diets with non-processed, fairly inexpensive, responsibly harvested meat that supplements an entire village for quite a long time. It is an entire community event and a beautiful example of humans working together for a greater cause than a single person's greed or desires. I would suggest visiting www.ktuu.com it is a local Anchorage TV station that did a several part story on whaling in the Arctic region, it will give you an incredible insight on the facts of the matter and not the hype of a animal rights group with a strict political agenda.

All of this being said, and on the original topic at hand which deals with whaling for commercial, subsistence, and research purposes, I said in my original post if it can be done in a responsible way should be allowed to go on...again only in a responsible manner.

I basically agree with most of your points, as I said before: the indigenous lifestyle is gone and cannot be gotten back. The point I was trying to make was that claiming traditional aborigional rights while not living the traditional aboriginal lifestye is one of the things that is destroying the animal populations. Where do you draw the line? Fishing is traditional, do the driftnet fishers get a free-pass because they've always been fishermen?

How much technology do you get to use to maintain your traditional aboriginal lifestyle? Can you hunt polar bears with aircraft? Wolves too? The problem is that the numbers of people and levels of technology available are overwhelming the natural world and I can't see any reasonable way to regulate it for people like yourself.

As far as dog sledding goes, the Idiot-rod and other spectacles of animal abuse have nothing to do with the traditional way of life. Horse racing, dog racing, rodeos, dog and cock fighting are all barbaric anachronisms. I don't think dogs lived very good lives with the original traditional arctic peoples, dogs were things to be used for survival and like all animals they were expendable. It's no different today except in scale, far more animals are dying as expendables to support the vast number of humans on the planet.

My position remains, that the traditional aboriginal lifestyle no longer exists in any meaningful way (a crime against the indigenous people by modern man) and claiming traditional rights on the basis of TRADITION is no longer warranted. As you noted, you can no longer go back to your traditional ways, I'm sorry for you but that's the way it is, so let's all stop looking back at tradition to guide us into the future. As you point out, it's a new world, let's make new traditions based on our current reality.

 

[Bunz]

Bunz, why are you on a computer if you try and lead a subsistence life, as traditionally as possible?

Well a few things, first off the internet is something relatively new here in rural Alaska and it is very slow compared to the rest of the world. There was actually a small movement against having the internet in this part of AK, but having the internet available is now mandated by federal law under education policy that all public schools have access to the net, which it is now wired into individual homes for a hefty price. I dont have it in my own home, but visit a friend regularly as I have work to do that pertains to being online, in the meantime I get on and chat politics with folks like you.
But leading a subsistence life has to do with the harvest of food for ones self. For instance I rarely eat meat from the grocery store(a little chicken about once a month as a treat). The main diet consists of(in order of importance) salmon, moose, caribou, other fish, waterfowl and other birds. We also pick berries and harvest wild edible veggies such as celery. This is done with an absolute minimum of waste to the animal. With salmon only the guts are thrown away, the rest including the heads are eaten. With moose/caribou again only a few parts are discarded such as the lungs, stomach, intestines and reproductive organs, and kidneys. Heart, liver, hide are all used for various purposes. These are harvested with the use of nets and various guns, but never out of airplanes(that is illegal in AK with a very few exceptions in 2 small areas specifically for wolf, and I wont debate that here as those locations are several hundred miles from me and I am not sure how I feel about it) In harvesting game, it is done in the most humane possible manner and is not at all throphy hunting, this is not like watching some rednecks hunt deer or turkey in Texas, it is simply a matter of trying to put meat on ones table.
Many of the methods are the same, but the tools have been upgraded. But using office technology has little to do with being in the outdoors practicing subsistence.

 

[9sublime]

I think its brilliant what you are doing, and it must take a lot of will power not to ditch the whole thing and go live in a city. I admire what you do, I was just thinking it wasn't very traditional.

Thanks for the answer.

 

[Bunz]

Sublime, it isnt a matter of willpower really. It is just what we do. Sure we drive cars, use the internet, and many folks have ipods and sattelite TV, but that doesnt stand in the way of catching your own food. I grew up in Anchorage which is a modern metropolitan city. But moved to the bush quite awhile back because I cant stand the hussle bussle of the city life.
Mare, Ill take a few minutes here to reply to your post.
First off, it is illegal to hunt polar bears in Alaska. It is generally illegal to hunt anything from an airplane and one cannot usually fly and hunt in the same 24hour period by state law. There are two locations where wolves are hunted by aerial means, but this is not nearly as effective as one would imagine, and they need a special license. This is done as a targeted predator control system to manage moose and caribou poppulations. The rules are still the same in the sense that have to use a non-automatic rifle and then must take the wolf in an area where they can land in the plane(usually on skiis) to collect the pelt from the wolf. Failure to do that comes with a very hefty punishment.
The state of Alaska is world renowned for its wildlife management, done in a manner to protect the resource for the future. This is done through bag limits, limits on which sex of a species can be taken etc. Failure to comply with the law, comes with very heavy punishment, including the confiscation of any tools/vehicles used in the violation. There have been cases where people have lost literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in property due to this. Nobody likes poachers.
The current reality is that hunting, fishing and trapping are very sustainable in Alaska, the wildlife poppulations are considered as healthy now as they were 100 years ago.