More Evidence Contradicting the Climate Change

[Openmind]

Simply, because you've taken two dissimilar facts in order to prove a hypothesis -
1- The planet has warmed.
2 -CO2 has been added by Humans
Post hoc ergo propter hoc humans caused the planet to warm....!!??
All of it, some of it or none of it - does the atmosperic CO2 level even matter - is it even relevent!!
Now comes the science the modelling the politicisation the arguing of facts versus popular belief of the herd etc. etc.

You forgot to mention the third fact you, yourself, mentioned:

• CO2 has an infrared emission spectra.

And, although it is obvious that hearth has gone through temperature variations over millions of years, NONE have been this fast. . .and the "added factor" is human consumption of fossil fuel, Human consumption of CO2 producing meat, and huge increase of earth population.

But. . .sure, let's not worry about it until we have a PROOF. . .when it's too late to react!

 

[palerider]

Great so you at least agree with this. Let us continue...



Global climate is bullshit? Really Pale Rider? You want ACTUAL evidence that global warming is REALLY happening and man is causing it?

How surprising is it that right off the bat, you alter the argument I put forward to argue against the one you made up?...here is a clue...not surprising at all. I said as clearly as I could that I agree that the climate is changing...the claim that man is causing it, or primarily responsible for it is bullshit.

RISING TEMPERATURES

Temperatures have been higher in the recent past...in fact, the present is cooler than most of the past 10,000 years.

PRECIPITATION AND WATER

I am afraid that you can't show a single proxy study that shows with anything like certainty that the present precipitation patters are any different from past patterns...trying to build a global climate pattern on 100 years of observations is like trying to describe the life of Einstein by describing what he had for breakfast on his 32nd birthday.

AGRICULTURE['quote]

Straight forward observation puts the lie to that one...growing seasons are getting longer and have been for some time...

HIGHER SEA LEVELS

Sea levels have been rising for 14,000 years and are rising now at a slower rate than they have for most of that time...sea level rise is not accelerating.

Here are the results from several surveys of scientists over the course of several years.

Opinions? You are going to show me opinions when I asked for a single shred of observed, measured, quantified, empirical evidence that supports the anthropogenic climate change hypothesis over natural variability?...You lose..

Here is the list of surveys

Ask and you shall receive. Now YOU have been shown the light and error of your ways when it comes to global warming, climate change, and why MEN ARE causing it. You can lead a horse to water but...

I asked for a single piece of observed, measured, quantified, empirical data that supports the AGW hypothesis over natural variability....you didn't even come close...you showed me evidence of a climate that is changing well within the well known limits of natural variability..and you showed me some opinions that we are causing it...sorry guy...not even a good try.

 

[palerider]

Well, it seems that the three facts you acknowledge and posted definitely state that human consumption of excessive CO2 producing life style DO largely (at the least) contribute to global warming. . .so why is this merely an hypothesis?

So can you show a single piece of observed, measured, quantified empirical evidence in support of the hypothesis?...the fact that there is none is why the hypothesis should be tossed out and work on more thoroughly understanding the climate should begin.

 

[palerider]

You forgot to mention the third fact you, yourself, mentioned:

• CO2 has an infrared emission spectra.

S0 what? Absorption and emission do not equal warming...the hypothesis states that that emission spectra should result in a tropospheric hot spot...the smoking gun..the hard evidence that we are causing the warming...the problem is that the hot spot has not shown up...it isn't there, and the temperature has not seen a statistically significant increase in 2o years now even though CO2 has steadily increased.

And, although it is obvious that hearth has gone through temperature variations over millions of years, NONE have been this fast. . .and the "added factor" is human consumption of fossil fuel, Human consumption of CO2 producing meat, and huge increase of earth population.

Patently and provably untrue... Here is a "gold standard" temperature reconstruction from ice cores taken above the Arctic circle...it clearly shows temperature increases and decreases far in excess of anything we have seen happening and it is happening in a shorter time period.

The same warming and cooling fingerprints are also visible in the Vostok ice cores, again, gold standard for temperature reconstruction, showing that the temperature increases and decreases seen over the past 10,000 years were global in nature.

The claim that anything happening in the global climate today is even approaching the outer boundries of natural variability is simply untrue.



vostok-last-12000-years-web.gifBut. . .sure, let's not worry about it until we have a PROOF. . .when it's too late to react![/QUOTE]

How about just a few pieces of actual evidence...I am not asking for proof...just a single piece of observed, measured, quantified evidence that supports AGW over natural variability...just one...if even that much actual evidence can't be produced, exactly what is it that we are supposed to be worried about?

 

[Openmind]

S0 what? Absorption and emission do not equal warming...the hypothesis states that that emission spectra should result in a tropospheric hot spot...the smoking gun..the hard evidence that we are causing the warming...the problem is that the hot spot has not shown up...it isn't there, and the temperature has not seen a statistically significant increase in 2o years now even though CO2 has steadily increased.



Patently and provably untrue... Here is a "gold standard" temperature reconstruction from ice cores taken above the Arctic circle...it clearly shows temperature increases and decreases far in excess of anything we have seen happening and it is happening in a shorter time period.

The same warming and cooling fingerprints are also visible in the Vostok ice cores, again, gold standard for temperature reconstruction, showing that the temperature increases and decreases seen over the past 10,000 years were global in nature.

The claim that anything happening in the global climate today is even approaching the outer boundries of natural variability is simply untrue.



vostok-last-12000-years-web.gifBut. . .sure, let's not worry about it until we have a PROOF. . .when it's too late to react!

How about just a few pieces of actual evidence...I am not asking for proof...just a single piece of observed, measured, quantified evidence that supports AGW over natural variability...just one...if even that much actual evidence can't be produced, exactly what is it that we are supposed to be worried about?[/QUOTE]


Very interesting. . .so, let's just go on our merry little way, continue to polite and abuse the earth and our atmosphere, and give carte blanche to the big business to polute at will!

Now. . .What would be the real cost of protecting the environment? A few less billions in the hands of the top 0.1% of investors?

 

[palerider]

Very interesting. . .so, let's just go on our merry little way, continue to polite and abuse the earth and our atmosphere, and give carte blanche to the big business to polute at will!

Where did that come from? I am terribly concerned about the environment...I am a top shelf conservationist....pollution, unthinking land use, agricultural run off into the oceans, lakes, rivers and streams, not to mention seepage into the aquifer, and on and on and on. The actual environmental problems which need immediate attention and which progress could be made towards correcting them are legion.

Unfortunately, they are not being addressed, and no real progress is being made towards correcting them. Why? Because the man made global warming scam is sucking all the air from the room and all the treasures from the coffers...they say if we would only pony up 15 or 16 TRILLION dollars, we could address global warming....and the claim is bullshit. At present, we have no idea what truly drives the climate.

Now. . .What would be the real cost of protecting the environment? A few less billions in the hands of the top 0.1% of investors?

Far less than the tens of TRILLIONS that the climate industry is asking for. Think of what could be done insofar as addressing actual environmental issues with a single trillion dollars? You are thinking in terms of grabbing a few billion from the top 0.01% of investors, but the climate change industry is asking for tens of TRILLIONS and that money is coming from everyone and far to much of it is coming from people who can least afford to pay for it.

If you go after the top 0.1% specifically, you are going after the wrong people...that top 0.1% are the people who produce and if you go after them, they simply pass that cost along to the people who buy their products and services...and in far to many cases, the costs devastate people who can least afford the increase in costs of products and services...people who already decide whether to buy a couple of extra items at the grocery store for their kids or pay the electric bill.

We all live here and we all should pay a share...but till this man made climate change bullshit is put to bed, no real action will be taken on any

 

[Openmind]

Where did that come from? I am terribly concerned about the environment...I am a top shelf conservationist....pollution, unthinking land use, agricultural run off into the oceans, lakes, rivers and streams, not to mention seepage into the aquifer, and on and on and on. The actual environmental problems which need immediate attention and which progress could be made towards correcting them are legion.

Unfortunately, they are not being addressed, and no real progress is being made towards correcting them. Why? Because the man made global warming scam is sucking all the air from the room and all the treasures from the coffers...they say if we would only pony up 15 or 16 TRILLION dollars, we could address global warming....and the claim is bullshit. At present, we have no idea what truly drives the climate.




Far less than the tens of TRILLIONS that the climate industry is asking for. Think of what could be done insofar as addressing actual environmental issues with a single trillion dollars? You are thinking in terms of grabbing a few billion from the top 0.01% of investors, but the climate change industry is asking for tens of TRILLIONS and that money is coming from everyone and far to much of it is coming from people who can least afford to pay for it.

If you go after the top 0.1% specifically, you are going after the wrong people...that top 0.1% are the people who produce and if you go after them, they simply pass that cost along to the people who buy their products and services...and in far to many cases, the costs devastate people who can least afford the increase in costs of products and services...people who already decide whether to buy a couple of extra items at the grocery store for their kids or pay the electric bill.

We all live here and we all should pay a share...but till this man made climate change bullshit is put to bed, no real action will be taken on any

I am tired of hearing about "the producers" who sleep on their hoarding of money, never have enough, and spend their money everywhere but where it matters!

When are we going to stop "fearing" those hoarders of wealth and make them accountable? THEY are responsible more than anyone for the decline in our environment. It is not the poor who use airports (especially private ones), and engine fuel! It is not the poor who purchase yachts made in Italy, or Mercedes or Porshes made in Germany. It is not the middle class who takes safari vacations and kill wild life in Africa! It is not the poor and the lower middle class who drops tons of insecticides and chemical fertiliser and weed control on acres of golf green!

When will you have enough to bow to the "wealthy" because you are afraid of what they can do to our economy? It is not the tax cuts to the wealthy who trigger the economy. . not by using those tax cuts to purchase a $100,000 foreign car, take a $40,000 world cruise, or order a new yacht from Italy! It is the tax cuts and the infrastructure work to the poor and the middle class who allow THEM to purchase 4 American build small cars at $10,0000, or take a $1,200 family vacation at Myrtle beach or Disney, or purchase hundreds if not thousands of refrigerators made in the USA instead of ONE yacht made in Italy.

Stop catering to what the top .10% tells you, stop catering to the propaganda of the Right and their "trickle down" economics!

 

[palerider]

I am tired of hearing about "the producers" who sleep on their hoarding of money, never have enough, and spend their money everywhere but where it matters!

So it isn't really about the climate or the environment for you...it is about sticking it to those who have too much according to you.

When are we going to stop "fearing" those hoarders of wealth and make them accountable?

I don't fear them....I am glad that they are who they are. I am not the sort who cares to take the risk of owning my own business and growing it to the point that it not only takes care of me, but takes care of other people who work for me. I don't want that sort of responsibility...and I am not jealous of their success.

THEY are responsible more than anyone for the decline in our environment.

No...our corrupt government is responsible for the degradation of our environment...unfortunately, government employment doesn't attract the best and brightest...all to often, it attracts morally corrupt scumbags who can be bought and sold by anyone with the means to do so...a responsible government, would impose draconian penalties on polluters...punishments so harsh that only the most stupid would take the risk.

It is not the poor who use airports (especially private ones), and engine fuel! It is not the poor who purchase yachts made in Italy, or Mercedes or Porshes made in Germany. It is not the middle class who takes safari vacations and kill wild life in Africa! It is not the poor and the lower middle class who drops tons of insecticides and chemical fertiliser and weed control on acres of golf green!

No, but it is very often the poor who make the raw materials for jet aircraft....and it is very often the poor who do the manual labor required to maintain airports, etc...it is the poor who manufacture the raw materials for yachts...and the relatively poor who maintain them...ditto for cars, and trains...and practically anything else you care to name...whatever the product, it is proabably the poor who labor to provide the raw materials...then a slightly more wealthy class takes those raw materials and makes a product from them...then a slightly more wealthy class employs those products to begin the process of producing consumer products..and on it goes....stick it to the guy who employs those people and he usually finds that he can charge more for the product, and perhaps make do with fewer employees. Your sort of thinking hurts the very people who can least afford to be hurt financially.

When will you have enough to bow to the "wealthy" because you are afraid of what they can do to our economy?

Again...myopic, unthinking, knee-jerk jealousy....they are the people who make our economy possible...hurt them and you hurt the economy...I know you can't really think that deeply because of your jealousy...but alas, that is how it is.

It is not the tax cuts to the wealthy who trigger the economy. . not by using those tax cuts to purchase a $100,000 foreign car,

You can't see any further than the car that you wish you could afford...you can't see the miner who dug up the ore to make that car...or the smelter who processed the ore into raw steel, or aluminum...or the people who make machine parts...or make electrical wire..or plastic products, or leather, or wood that is required as basic material to begin making that car...you can't see the people who are employed putting parts together to sell to the auto manufacturers...you can't see the people who actually build the car...the car doesn't cost 100K because the raw materials are so expensive....the car costs 100K because the people who did all the work required to provide materials, process materials, make parts, and assemble parts had to be paid...

take a $40,000 world cruise, or order a new yacht from Italy!

Same is true for that luxury to which you are so jealous...you can't see all the regular people who earn their daily bread producing the raw and finished products necessary for someone to purchase the yacht...or take the cruise...what happens to those people if you "stick it" to the rich guy so hard that he decides to not purchase the yacht...or take the cruise? How do those people who work to make such things available or possible earn a living then?

It is the tax cuts and the infrastructure work to the poor and the middle class who allow THEM to purchase 4 American build small cars at $10,0000, or take a $1,200 family vacation at Myrtle beach or Disney, or purchase hundreds if not thousands of refrigerators made in the USA instead of ONE yacht made in Italy.

You think those refrigerators would ever get built if some fat cat didn't pony up the money to build the means of production?...then take the risk that someone would even want to buy his refrigerator..stereo...or whatever he happens to be in the business of making? Your jealousy of the rich has blinded you to the reality of how an economy works...you want to see what your sort of thinking produces?...look to the old soviet union...

Stop catering to what the top .10% tells you, stop catering to the propaganda of the Right and their "trickle down" economics!

Stop pretending to give a squat about the climate or the environment and be adult enough to simply admit that you are jealous of those who have what you don't and in your bitterness, all you really want is to hurt them without regard to the fact that those who you end up hurting are those who can least afford to support your bitterness.

Calling yoruself open mind is an ironic joke...your mind is so closed off with bitterness and jealousy of people who have things you don't that you can't...and won't see that your wish to hurt them hurts people who perhaps have far less than you...and you would see them taxed into bankruptcy if you could without the least regard to the legions of people who would be left unemployed...perhaps even yourself.

 

[dogtowner]

So it isn't really about the climate or the environment for you...it is about sticking it to those who have too much according to you.



I don't fear them....I am glad that they are who they are. I am not the sort who cares to take the risk of owning my own business and growing it to the point that it not only takes care of me, but takes care of other people who work for me. I don't want that sort of responsibility...and I am not jealous of their success.




No...our corrupt government is responsible for the degradation of our environment...unfortunately, government employment doesn't attract the best and brightest...all to often, it attracts morally corrupt scumbags who can be bought and sold by anyone with the means to do so...a responsible government, would impose draconian penalties on polluters...punishments so harsh that only the most stupid would take the risk.



No, but it is very often the poor who make the raw materials for jet aircraft....and it is very often the poor who do the manual labor required to maintain airports, etc...it is the poor who manufacture the raw materials for yachts...and the relatively poor who maintain them...ditto for cars, and trains...and practically anything else you care to name...whatever the product, it is proabably the poor who labor to provide the raw materials...then a slightly more wealthy class takes those raw materials and makes a product from them...then a slightly more wealthy class employs those products to begin the process of producing consumer products..and on it goes....stick it to the guy who employs those people and he usually finds that he can charge more for the product, and perhaps make do with fewer employees. Your sort of thinking hurts the very people who can least afford to be hurt financially.



Again...myopic, unthinking, knee-jerk jealousy....they are the people who make our economy possible...hurt them and you hurt the economy...I know you can't really think that deeply because of your jealousy...but alas, that is how it is.



You can't see any further than the car that you wish you could afford...you can't see the miner who dug up the ore to make that car...or the smelter who processed the ore into raw steel, or aluminum...or the people who make machine parts...or make electrical wire..or plastic products, or leather, or wood that is required as basic material to begin making that car...you can't see the people who are employed putting parts together to sell to the auto manufacturers...you can't see the people who actually build the car...the car doesn't cost 100K because the raw materials are so expensive....the car costs 100K because the people who did all the work required to provide materials, process materials, make parts, and assemble parts had to be paid...



Same is true for that luxury to which you are so jealous...you can't see all the regular people who earn their daily bread producing the raw and finished products necessary for someone to purchase the yacht...or take the cruise...what happens to those people if you "stick it" to the rich guy so hard that he decides to not purchase the yacht...or take the cruise? How do those people who work to make such things available or possible earn a living then?



You think those refrigerators would ever get built if some fat cat didn't pony up the money to build the means of production?...then take the risk that someone would even want to buy his refrigerator..stereo...or whatever he happens to be in the business of making? Your jealousy of the rich has blinded you to the reality of how an economy works...you want to see what your sort of thinking produces?...look to the old soviet union...



Stop pretending to give a squat about the climate or the environment and be adult enough to simply admit that you are jealous of those who have what you don't and in your bitterness, all you really want is to hurt them without regard to the fact that those who you end up hurting are those who can least afford to support your bitterness.

Calling yoruself open mind is an ironic joke...your mind is so closed off with bitterness and jealousy of people who have things you don't that you can't...and won't see that your wish to hurt them hurts people who perhaps have far less than you...and you would see them taxed into bankruptcy if you could without the least regard to the legions of people who would be left unemployed...perhaps even yourself.

Touche

 

[palerider]

Touche

Socialist thinking (if you can call it thinking) never ceases to surprise me....they can't see past their hate of those who have more than themselves and realize that if they hurt those people, the ones with less than themselves are the ones who pay the dearest price for their twisted politics.

 

[dogtowner]

Socialist thinking (if you can call it thinking) never ceases to surprise me....they can't see past their hate of those who have more than themselves and realize that if they hurt those people, the ones with less than themselves are the ones who pay the dearest price for their twisted politics.

Funnier still, she's a gated community 1%er so throw in self loathing along with runoff from her manicured lawn.
Never fails to crack me up.

 

[palerider]

Funnier still, she's a gated community 1%er so throw in self loathing along with runoff from her manicured lawn.
Never fails to crack me up.

Maybe never had the experience of actually living and trying to provide for a family paycheck to paycheck....and thinks that government is the solution for that rather than simply working harder and smarter. People like that often think that they are the only ones smart enough to improve their condition, when in reality, they never actually had to do it..

 

[palerider]

Funnier still, she's a gated community 1%er so throw in self loathing along with runoff from her manicured lawn.
Never fails to crack me up.

Self loathing for being wealthy is even more messed up and pitiful than jealousy and hatred of those who have what you can't.

 

[dogtowner]

Read an interesting article where an actual scientist tried to duplicate Bill Nye's co2 experiment from the gore 24 hr special.
Two glass jars and a heat lamp and thermometers and one jar gad co2 pumped into it. Supposedly the co2 one warmed more and faster. Turns out it didnt.
See wattsupwiththat.com for the humerus account.

 

[palerider]

Some of those CO2 in a jar experiments will produce warmer temperatures in the CO2 jar...When it does, it is because the jar is sealed...It doesn't show that CO2 causes warming though..it is a demonstration of a phenomenon called the heat of compression...CO2 has a higher specific gravity than air....put it in a sealed jar and heat it up and it will get warmer than air...punch a hole in the top of the jar though and while the CO2 won't escape because it is heavier than air, the temperature will equalize with the jar full of just air...just one more example of warmers fooling themselves...