Large Hadron Collider

[Pandora]

I had not thought about hackers and stuff. I figured they would just do major damage all on their own

 

[Shadow]

Been following the reports as they proceed. FASCINATING and more power to them. This and the human mind could well be the "final frontier" of exploration. Any discovery gained will enrich humans with more knowledge...... and this is what separates the human from other species. It would be grand to see them isolate the "god " factor .(energy) OTOH.... it is a tad frightening to consider what mankind would do with it...and this knowledge. Mankind, not being the most ethical or responsible species as we all have seen.


OF course, the other factor is checks and balances. The creative is balanced with a destructive .

either way........ more power to them as science continues to explore the new territory .


Seems that the "religious" have the most to fear as their entire belief system could be brought up for serious review .............and yet should see this as a new horizon of knowledge.


given that man did not want to believe/ accept that the earth was round.......one can only imagine the denial , out cries, and condemnation that would take place about any findings. Humanity does seem to still need to hang on to the familiar "comfort zone ". (in general). Fortunately there are enough folks that are adventuresome and willing to examine all possibilities. ....and go where some are too timid to go. The world needs these persons of exploration as it is THEM that break new barriers , shedding light on what we have yet to know.--even if it just a glimmer at a time.

 

[r0beph]

....funny you should say that, I read Hawkin's book "Brief History of Time" - or it could have been a Kip Thorn book!!??........anyway one of them was commenting on the theological angle that some mysteries will never be answered; such as what existed prior to the "Big Bang" etc.. Whilst there is science there has to be something which is just....well....unanswerable

Well this isn't quite the case. What existed before the big bang, is simply answered. nothing. Time is an effect of the universe. Before the big bang, there not only was no space, there was no time, there was nothing. It is impossible to determine what was there, because there was no there, there was no "something". It's a difficult premise to "see" in your mind. But what existed was a state of nonexistence.

 

[The Scotsman]

.......must have been something in order for matter to have been created .... isn't that the premise of a vacuum fluctuation? out of apparent "nothingness" can appear matter thus isn't the apparent "nothingness" energy?

 

[top gun]

The belief by some that black holes equate to time travel is only a hypothesis.

I do personally think that if the collider does eventually supply concrete evidence that supports the Big Bang Theory, there will be a huge amount of turmoil and severe agitation amongst Theists.

Ditto

 

[r0beph]

.......must have been something in order for matter to have been created .... isn't that the premise of a vacuum fluctuation? out of apparent "nothingness" can appear matter thus isn't the apparent "nothingness" energy?

In the classical system yes. But if you remember in the state of the "matter" (which I'll put in quotes, since it's NOT exactly what it is) of a singularity such as the "thing" or "not thing" that was the pre big bang singularity, classical physics goes all to hell, quite literally. Vacuum didn't exist either. SPACE did not exist, outside of the singularity, nothing existed, within the singularity (which technically isn't really "within" since there was nothing outside of it, so an internal identifier without an external identifier doesn't make sense itself.) is also nothing since before time 0 there was "nothing" per se. It's a complex yet oh so simple ideal. The problem arises in that since this Zero-Dimension singularity existed, no time, no width, no length, no breadth. everything and all of nothing was stuffed into this 0 point which basically "does not exist". The reason we can only compute back to the micronanopico seconds after zero time is that nothing existed before this and the numbers start going all awry. Right AFTER the expansion of this all, we can compute, because its no longer 0 dimensions, no longer "non-existent", quite strange to think about, it'll hurt if you do actually. There is absolutely no information possible before the big bang, since everything that is the universe was packed into something literally infinitesimally small, everything was homogeneous it was one little tiny thing so small that anything you try to use as an example of being "as small" be it a number or object, is immediately larger than the singularity. I am becoming redundant and repetitive because the description of "what was" is nothing more than a possible circular definition... it was small thing that was nothing, thus this thing was nothing. It's really zen in its definition and hurts as much as the search for an answer to any koan.

But to end it all, it suffices to say, that nothing existed before the big bang.

 

[Mr.Dysfunctional]

The belief by some that black holes equate to time travel is only a hypothesis.

I do personally think that if the collider does eventually supply concrete evidence that supports the Big Bang Theory, there will be a huge amount of turmoil and severe agitation amongst Theists.

I am not sure how Theists are supposed to be worried about this at all.. the "god" particle is only named as such because its a fundamental block of existience.. not anything that would over turn most modern religons.

Also .. even proving the big bang was actual fact (( which I'm not sure how people couldn't see that with just the current information avalible. )) it would further prove christianities Creation theory.

Matter of fact.. the pope has hired many astronomers because the news of the big bang came around..

You all need to read genisis. Its pretty clear.. there was nothing.. god snapped his fingers.. BLAMMOOO the universe sprang forth.

Ohh Noobama... While you might not like the Big bang theory.. its the closest theory that fits reality at this point.. might try doing some research.

And there could have been things before the big bang..
Oscilating Universe theory?!?! that strike as anyone as a possiblity?!?!

 

[Mr.Dysfunctional]

In the classical system yes. But if you remember in the state of the "matter" (which I'll put in quotes, since it's NOT exactly what it is) of a singularity such as the "thing" or "not thing" that was the pre big bang singularity, classical physics goes all to hell, quite literally. Vacuum didn't exist either. SPACE did not exist, outside of the singularity, nothing existed, within the singularity (which technically isn't really "within" since there was nothing outside of it, so an internal identifier without an external identifier doesn't make sense itself.) is also nothing since before time 0 there was "nothing" per se. It's a complex yet oh so simple ideal. The problem arises in that since this Zero-Dimension singularity existed, no time, no width, no length, no breadth. everything and all of nothing was stuffed into this 0 point which basically "does not exist". The reason we can only compute back to the micronanopico seconds after zero time is that nothing existed before this and the numbers start going all awry. Right AFTER the expansion of this all, we can compute, because its no longer 0 dimensions, no longer "non-existent", quite strange to think about, it'll hurt if you do actually. There is absolutely no information possible before the big bang, since everything that is the universe was packed into something literally infinitesimally small, everything was homogeneous it was one little tiny thing so small that anything you try to use as an example of being "as small" be it a number or object, is immediately larger than the singularity. I am becoming redundant and repetitive because the description of "what was" is nothing more than a possible circular definition... it was small thing that was nothing, thus this thing was nothing. It's really zen in its definition and hurts as much as the search for an answer to any koan.

But to end it all, it suffices to say, that nothing existed before the big bang.

Also.. you could take string theory into count for what WAS the big bang the moment before it gave loose to the universe.. All matter in our universe could have been packed on top of each other if the fundamental building blocks were 2d strings.

However .. as far as recovering actual info from the moment everything was contained within that 0 space obviously is impossible .. unless you subscribe to marvel comics. GALACTUS FOR PRESIDENT 08!!!!!

 

[r0beph]

Also.. you could take string theory into count for what WAS the big bang the moment before it gave loose to the universe.. All matter in our universe could have been packed on top of each other if the fundamental building blocks were 2d strings.

However .. as far as recovering actual info from the moment everything was contained within that 0 space obviously is impossible .. unless you subscribe to marvel comics. GALACTUS FOR PRESIDENT 08!!!!!

Information is existence. It is what makes things exist, so to speak.

I could tell the world I have a rabbit, now while it exceeds the bounds of our abilities to prove absolutely that I never did nor do have a rabbit, we'll say that given science could determine without a doubt that it existed or not using data such as the mass of all given energies and particles contained within a specific area (earth) and the location and purpose of each particle/energy. This would suffice that every energy unit used for the memories of people who have seen the rabbit, the energy of the motions used opening feed bags, feeding the rabbit, and cleaning its little pellets, this would include the remains if it died, the rabbit if it were whole, the particles that were once the rabbit and now in my stomach had I eaten it. This would show 0, no rabbit existed, no particle or energy was ever a part of this said rabbit. This rabbit simply never existed, it can't, it is an impossible rabbit. Same thing for the prebang (!=)universe, people say well, we don't know nothing was there, but the fact is, nothing was.

the prebang singularity did not appear within "the universe" the universe appeared within the singularity. Before this singularity there was nothing, no time, no space, no matter, no energy. The singularities existence began at the same zero time that the singularity expanded into our universe, this zero(T) was not only the beginning of the universe spatially, it was the beginning of matter and energy , zero(T) is when the singularity began its existence. People like to think of the big bang as a bang, its not a bang really, that's pretty obvious. it's like taking a balloon with the dimensions of 1^-(inf). and you begin inflating it, blowing it up, as it expands it is as space, generally speaking, it was more of a whoosh than a bang. Time and Space itself sprang into being at the exact same moment as energy and matter sprang into being, it wasn't a chicken and an egg, they both exist and require each other the exist. The only way something could have existed, be it god or matter* / energy* would be to have been outside of the natural realm which science won't even try to touch.


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The problem is the big bang theory is that, a theory, we can never TRULY know the absolute finite 0 point for the begining, we can however over time move closer and closer to T->-(inf), this will discredit some theories, and others not. I'd like to avoid the religious side of things by saying I'll not discuss it at all within this thread any further and anyone replying with such drivel will be promptly overlooked, not because I lend credence to your rebuttal but rather I find it lacking science and attempting to address scientifically something that cannot be done so.