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[Apathy]

1)Israel was about to get attacked, and hundreds of thousands of soldiers were massed against them on the border.



2)I think the Declaration of Independence makes a better case than I would.

1) Is not preparing an attack starting a war? Isreal had the right to build defences to fight them off but I believe they did a bit more than that...

2) Simply declaring yourself independent from another nation doesnt mean war. I think you are blaming the wrong nation for starting that war.

 

[BigRob]

1) Is not preparing an attack starting a war? Isreal had the right to build defences to fight them off but I believe they did a bit more than that...

Sorry for my delayed response, this thread stopped coming up in my CP.

I would say yes, preparing an attack is akin to "starting a war", but of course that leaves the question of "what is an attack" and how is it determined you are preparing for one?

Is a cyber attack war? Is damaging a ship war?

2) Simply declaring yourself independent from another nation doesnt mean war. I think you are blaming the wrong nation for starting that war.

Fair enough, but I think if you look at it through the lens of the time period, you might be hard pressed to argue that colonies declaring independence meant something other than a war.

 

[Apathy]

Sorry for my delayed response, this thread stopped coming up in my CP.

I would say yes, preparing an attack is akin to "starting a war", but of course that leaves the question of "what is an attack" and how is it determined you are preparing for one?

1)Is a cyber attack war? Is damaging a ship war?



2)Fair enough, but I think if you look at it through the lens of the time period, you might be hard pressed to argue that colonies declaring independence meant something other than a war.

1) If it is an agressive attack approved by the government of said nation yes.

2) Ok fair enough we can accept for the purpose of this discussion that declaring yourself independent is an act of of war. Did the colnies not have diplomatic options?

 

[BigRob]

1) If it is an agressive attack approved by the government of said nation yes.

Since the Chinese (and other) government approves and supports cyber attacks against the US regularly, are we at war with the Chinese?

2) Ok fair enough we can accept for the purpose of this discussion that declaring yourself independent is an act of of war. Did the colnies not have diplomatic options?

The colonies did have diplomatic options, which I think they pursued.. Really their options were to go to the King and unless I am not remembering, they did that a few times?

I suppose the issue then becomes, at what point has the diplomatic effort been exhausted?

 

[Apathy]

1) Since the Chinese (and other) government approves and supports cyber attacks against the US regularly, are we at war with the Chinese?



The colonies did have diplomatic options, which I think they pursued.. Really their options were to go to the King and unless I am not remembering, they did that a few times?

2)I suppose the issue then becomes, at what point has the diplomatic effort been exhausted?

1) I doubt we will they hold the mortage and war with them will cause massive financial and human losses. Hell if our economy gets bad enough and the right war mongering president is office they may use the attacks as an excuse. But I need a bit more information as to what the "attacks" actually were. Can you give me a link?

2) I say keep trying until their bones turn to dust if it means avoiding war. Correct me if Im wrong but I believe Franklin was making some progress before the war.

 

[PLC1]

I suppose the issue then becomes, at what point has the diplomatic effort been exhausted?

Probably when a foreign army invades our soil, like the forces of King George did to start the revolutionary war.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

1) I doubt we will they hold the mortage and war with them will cause massive financial and human losses. Hell if our economy gets bad enough and the right war mongering president is office they may use the attacks as an excuse. But I need a bit more information as to what the "attacks" actually were. Can you give me a link?

2) I say keep trying until their bones turn to dust if it means avoiding war. Correct me if Im wrong but I believe Franklin was making some progress before the war.

No progress was ever going to give us our own nation, or freedom...just crumbs more to make the richest happy...there was one way it was going to happen..blood...it would be nice to think they would be nice and just let it happen, but never would...

 

[Apathy]

No progress was ever going to give us our own nation, or freedom...just crumbs more to make the richest happy...there was one way it was going to happen..blood...it would be nice to think they would be nice and just let it happen, but never would...

I never heard of the canadian revolution? Yet here they are an independent nation with out having to bathe their land in blood.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I never heard of the canadian revolution? Yet here they are an independent nation with out having to bathe their land in blood.

actually they are still under the queen...but they basically got free because France gave up on it, then the Brits took over...and after our Revolution and the war of 1812...the Brits had to start tempering there interests ...not long after this in 1837, there where rebellions against the British government..there where armed skermishes in the northern parts of Canada, and organized in the area of Quebec.."the Patriote movement" and the lower Canada Rebellion ( left 73 dead 1600 wounded for Canada and 32 dead 47 wounded for Brits)

I am sure there was more fighting, don't know much on Canadian history but they did draw blood for it, and also had the help of knowing that had the British tried to hard enforce there will on them, the US would Back Canada ( large amounts of Americans took part in the lower canada rebelion..and the US would see any power the UK tried to hold over Canada as a threat ..after all in 1812...where did we send out troops to fight the brits? Canada.

how about Ireland? if the Irish Finnegans and later IRA had not taken up arms...do you think that Ireland would be free today..given that North Ireland is still not? You think a nation that let half of Ireland's population die in the potato famine ...as to not make them dependent on hand outs from the Brits ..cared enough to let them be free...without it being paid in blood? The British Government could give a flying F about dirty Irish Catholics , all they cared about was there income from the colony. I am sure Oliver Cromwell and his like would have listened real hard to them saying we wish to be free...before he butchered them all as godless traitors to the king.

 

[BigRob]

1) I doubt we will they hold the mortage and war with them will cause massive financial and human losses. Hell if our economy gets bad enough and the right war mongering president is office they may use the attacks as an excuse. But I need a bit more information as to what the "attacks" actually were. Can you give me a link?

From Foreign Policy Magazine:
Attacks include:
1) 2008 Presidential campaigns
2) Lockheed Martin F-35 program
3) Commerce Department
4) State Department
5) Naval War College
6) Congressional Offices

Of course the point is not "will we attack", the question was "are we at war?"

2) I say keep trying until their bones turn to dust if it means avoiding war. Correct me if Im wrong but I believe Franklin was making some progress before the war.

I am no expert in the history of the American Revolution, I am not quite sure about your Ben Franklin comment..

However, I do know that he stated: "Even peace may be purchased at too high a price."

 

[BigRob]

Probably when a foreign army invades our soil, like the forces of King George did to start the revolutionary war.

Surely you are not attempting to claim that British forces were not "on our soil" before the Declaration of Independence?

Additionally, it was technically British "soil", a fact that does not change because we (and not in a united way mind you) simply declared that it was now ours.

If a group in Nebraska (for example) declares they are no longer part of the United States, and we go in and stop that, did we "invade" their "soil" and "start" a war?

 

[Centrehalf]

Compass:
You are a center-right social libertarian.
Right: 2.56, Libertarian: 7.05

Foreign Policy:
On the left side are pacifists and anti-war activists.
On the right side are those who want a strong military that
intervenes around the world.
You scored: -2.45

Culture:
Where are you in the culture war? On the liberal side, or the
conservative side?
You scored: -3.82