That sounds more like a theocracy to me. Is that really a "far right" ideology?
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That sounds more like a theocracy to me. Is that really a "far right" ideology?
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ThisTooShallPass
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Hardly. True conservatism (not the reactionary liberalism of 1776 we have today in this country) recognizes that there is a natural hierarchy in society, and that the state is not the pinnacle of it. Think the politics of the French counterrevolutionaries like Louis de Bonald or Joseph de Maister, or the European Catholic Democratic parties prior to the 1960s.
Openmind
Well-Known Member
That certainly wasn't the case in Nazi Germany!
And, Hitler was a devote Catholic.
Openmind
Well-Known Member
Well, that's the problem with believing in Catholicism. . .you also have to believe in the devil.
And I'm afraid that the "Catholic" version of God is much to close too close to tht of the devil. . . kind of a mirror image!
There have been so many things done in the name of God, that were really more in the name of the Devil!
Look at the Spanish inquisition!
Look at the murdering of doctors who perfom abortions!
Look at the murdering of a huge number of Indians by the "well meaning" Jesuites!
Look at the crusades.
It is scary when men believe they can guess what God's will is. . .sometimes it turns into "the devil's will."
I guess the lone terrorist in Norway is just one more exemple!
It does look that way.
When someone begins to speak for god, it makes most of us wonder about him. When other people start to believe that he really does speak for god, it gets a little scary.
The jihadis believe that they are doing the will of god, also.
Openmind
Well-Known Member
Exactly! The big problem with ANY and ALL religions, is that (in my humble opinion) they are manmade, and that humankind insists on putting their own "image" of God on GOD. This mean they are all belittleling the one, universal/personal God by imposing the limitations of time, culture, gender, and knowledge that all human face.
By doing that, religions become divisive, while GOD strive to unite, to love, not to divide and to destroy.
Well, I know everyone won't agree with this. But I feel in peace with my conscience about this.
ThisTooShallPass
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Honestly, I can't be bothered to engage you if you're just going to make crap up to rationalize your prejudices. Even a casual Wikipedia search gives lie to this assertion.
Openmind
Well-Known Member
Sure it does!. . .LOL!
But, maybe, someone should have informed the Holocaust Museum organizers that they lied while telling the story of the rise of Hitler and what led to the holocaust.
And I agree. . .let's stay away from each other! You don't want to hear opinions that are contrary to your "KNOWLEDGE," but you also do not want to hear FACTS that does not fit withing your paradigme of "knowledge!"
Do you speak/read French? If not, let me know what you would like me to translate. Today, the Catholic Church is so embarassed by its role in nazi Germany that it is attempting what consist of a revision of Hitler, his crimes, and the pretty sick role played by the Pope, and the top Catholic bishops all over Europe (including in Belgium, where my uncle was killed by fire squad for having believed in Hitler's deep Catholic faith).
Hitler Adolf, Führer et Catholique
L'Église Catholique embrasse le Nazisme
Dossier préparé par René Thirifays
Vous l'avez tous reconnu : c'est Adolf Hitler, le Führer. Ce catholique exemplaire (this exemplary Catholic) mérite sa
place aux côtés des autres saints du Christinanisme, des canonisés, des missionnaires, des
papes et des cardinaux les plus tristement célèbres.
Soutenu par le Vatican et catapulté au pouvoir grâce aux voix des partis catholiques (Supported by the Vatican, and catapluted to power by the voice of the Catholic party), il se
donna pour mission d'appliquer à la lettre certains préceptes du Christianisme. (he made it his mission to apply to the letter certain precepts of Christianity).
La phrase " Dieu est avec nous " écrite sur le ceinturon de chaque soldat, il ne restait plus
qu'à éradiquer le peuple juif qui avait "tué Jésus"... Avec la bénédiction de l'Église Catholique
Romaine. R.T. (The sentence "God is with us" enscribed on the belt of every soldier's uniform, the only thing left to do was to eradicate the Jewish people who had "killed Jesus". . .With the benediction of the Roman Catholic Church).
Hitler athée ?!? " Aujourd'hui s'éveille une foi nouvelle: le mythe du sang, la croyance
selon laquelle on peut, avec le sang, défendre aussi l'essence divine de l'homme (...). Le
sang nordique représente ce mystère qui a remplacé et surmonté les anciens sacrements
(...). Le peuple allemand n'est pas atteint par le péché originel, il possède au contraire une
noblesse originelle." (Extraits de Mein Kampf, d'Adolf Hitler). Si Hitler était athée, il ne
parlait pas comme un athée, n'a rien écrit qui ressemble, même de loin, à des pensées niant
Dieu. N'a rien commis qui s'éloignât des méthodes de la grande église dominante... Hitler
athée ?!? " Je suis catholique. La Providence l'a voulu. En effet, seul un catholique connaît
les points faibles de l'Eglise. (If Hitler was an atheist, he didn't speak like an atheist, didn't write any thoughts that, even from a distance would deny God. He didn't commit anything that distanced from the great dominating Church's method . . .Hitler, an atheist?" "I am Catholic. Providence wanted it. In fact, only a Catholic knows the weaknesses of the Church"). Je sais de quelle manière on peut attaquer ces gens-là " dixit
A. Hitler, (Eric Lebec, Histoire secrète de la diplomatie Vaticane, Albin Michel, Paris, 1997)
... Si ce monstre d'Hitler était athée, moi je m'appelle Atchoum, et je suis le nain qui prépare
le p'tit-déj. de Blanche-neige. Et si l'Église catholique a désavoué le nazisme, alors moi je
m'appelle Mme Pou-Yi, impératrice de 10'000 ans.
Janvier 1933, le Zentrum, parti catholique, dont le leader est un prélat catholique (Prälat
Kaas), vote les pleins pouvoirs à Hitler: Ce dernier peut ainsi atteindre la majorité des 2/3 au
Reichstag pour suspendre les droits garantis par la constitution. Avec une charité toute
chrétienne, le bon prélat et ses ouailles du Zentrum accepte aussi de fermer un oeil sur les
détails procéduriers discutables des nazis, comme l'arrestation des députés communistes avant
le vote. Puis l'église commence à négocier un nouveau concordat avec l'Allemagne: dans ce
cadre, elle "sacrifie" le Zentrum, alors seul parti significatif que les nazis n'ont pas interdit : en
effet, il les a aidés à arriver au pouvoir. Le 5 juillet 1933, le Zentrum s'autodissoud sur
demande de la hiérarchie catholique, laissant le champ libre au NSDAP de Hitler, désormais
parti unique. Le prélat Kaas laisse les compatriotes se débrouiller avec la dictature qu'il a aidé
à installer, et déménage au Vatican, où il entame une nouvelle carrière: alors que le monde
s'embrase, Monseigneur Kaas, désormais évêque, dirigera des fouilles sous la Basilique de
Saint Pierre qui aboutiront à la découverte du 2è crâne de Saint Pierre.
(Les pages Noires du Christianisme, 2000 ans de crime, terreur, répression - Enrico
Riboni)
Hitler se proclame catholique dans Mein Kampf, l'ouvrage où il annonce son programme
politique. Il y affirme aussi qu'il est convaincu qu'il est un "instrument de Dieu". L'Eglise
catholique ne mettra jamais "Mein Kampf" à l'Index, même avant l'accession de Hitler au
pouvoir. Il faut croire que le programme antisémite du futur chancelier ne déplaisait pas à
l'église. Hitler montrera sa reconnaissance en rendant obligatoire la prière à Jésus dans l'école
publique allemande, et en réintroduisant la phrase "Gott mit uns" (Dieu est avec Nous) sur les
uniformes de l'armée allemande.
"Aujourd'hui s'éveille une foi nouvelle: le mythe du sang, la croyance selon laquelle on
peut, avec le sang, défendre aussi l'essence divine de l'homme (...). Le sang nordique
représente ce mystère qui a remplacé et surmonté les anciens sacrements (...). Le peuple
allemand n'est pas atteint par le péché originel, il possède au contraire une noblesse
originelle".
(Les pages Noires du Christianisme, 2000 ans de crime, terreur, répression - Enrico
Riboni)
1938, les SS et SA organisent la Nuit de Cristal : déguisés en civils, les miliciens nazis
attaquent synagogues et magasins appartenant à des juifs. La population allemande est à la
fois horrifiée et terrifiée. L'évêque de Freiburg, Monseigneur Gröber, déclare alors, en
réponse à des questions sur les lois raciales et les pogroms de la nuit de cristal: " On ne peut
refuser à quiconque le droit de sauvegarder la pureté de sa race et d'élaborer les mesures
nécessaires à cette fin."
Any debate between us is a waste of time for both of us.
ThisTooShallPass
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You realize the Wikipedia article I literally just linked yesterday acknowledges that he made vaguely Christian sounding statements in public even as he endeavored to destroy it behind the scenes?
Can you really not conjure up a reason why an aspiring dictator of an overwhelmingly Christian nation would feel compelled to make Christian-sounding noises in order to win the approval of his overwhelmingly Christian subjects? And do you really believe the "Positive Christianity" he promoted was anything other than a gross heresy?
Can you really not conjure up a reason why an aspiring dictator of an overwhelmingly Christian nation would feel compelled to make Christian-sounding noises in order to win the approval of his overwhelmingly Christian subjects? And do you really believe the "Positive Christianity" he promoted was anything other than a gross heresy?
Openmind
Well-Known Member
Hitler didn't make "vague Catholic statements" in public.
He wrote about his faith, he spoke about his faith, he USED his "faith" to get elected.
He USED Catholicism and the "the Jews killed Christ" to get the support of the Catholic Church, and he got it manyfolds!
Obvioulsy, Hitler was an evil man. . .so were MANY Christians, so were the Spanish inquisitors, so is that Norvegien fundamental Christian terrorist who just killed 92 people, most youths, in the name of his faith!
That is the point. . .Catholicism, Christianity is not the answer to evil. . .it too many cases it has been USED to create and/or explain evil doing.
As I said before, I have a direct connection to what blind faith can do to people. Without Hitler's close ties to Catholicism, he may NEVER have been placed in power by the Christian Party in Germany. Without his close ties to Catholicism, he may not have received the support of most high level Catholic bishops to "mellow" the resistance in countries he invaded. He received the support of the Roman Catholic Church because of his targeted population: Jews (who "killed Christ") and homosexuals (who are "sinners!")
You can keep a blind eye, I personally don't care. But the facts are there, in front of you, in plenty of historical references, in Mein Kampf. Was Hitler knowingly using Catholicism to achieve his goals, or did he truly believe that it was his "God given mission?" I don't know, I don't think anyone will ever know.
I have lived with catholicism, I have lived in a country who was deeply divided under the german occupation, My uncle wrote many of the speeches of one of Hitler's right hands in that country. . .because he believed in Hitler's mission of "purety of religion, and purety of the race." I am not proud of it. . .but I learned from it. He was killed by the firing squad after the war, while the man he wrote the speeches for escaped to Spain and lived a long life. A book was written about my uncle that gives every detail of the "big lie." His children lived without a father.
You believe what you want to believe. I KNOW.
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