Israel is guilty of occupation, apartheid and colonialism,

[Lilly Marlene]

[continuing]

That would depend entirely on which book it was coming from and the history of what happens if a nation actively engages them in war. Besides, Israel has an historical claim on that land that goes back literally thousands of years.

Yes, the same claim as some of my ancestors have to the area which today is France.
The fact is that very few nations are now composed of the descendants of those who first stood on two legs in them.
Not to mention,
that does not describe the population of people who inhabited Israel at the time of the dispersion in 70 AD.
IF
we were to follow your reasoning about historical claims, then you and I should pack up our gear and get out of here because the area of these United States belongs clearly to the American Indians.

There never was a palestine, and there never were palestinians...

....................................................................

The history is interesting.
Yesterday I went almost point for point but what will it yield me:
While some of it is consensus, other aspects of what you contend is strenuously disputed by Arabs, who were just as physically present as the Zionist sources were.

In any case,
what you have written boils down to a single idea. You seem to be saying that because Arabs organized themselves differently and did not use the paradigm we are accustomed to (formally declared nation, separate language, and so forth) ...that because of that, they don't have any claim to the land.

You must see the parallel there with the American Indians !

If you had it to do differently than our European ancestors did, would you not deal differently with American Indians ?

Please do some soul searching before answering. I'm sure you know some Indians or at least someone who is part Indian. You can reject all the Hollywood stuff and read even the most conservative sources and I will bet you still find it to be unjust.

Between 1946 and 1958 there were about 120,000 people living in the area that is now all of israel and jordan. You do the math. Today, there are approximately 5 million "palestinians" claiming the right to return. Since there were only 120,000 living in the area that is now Israel and jordan, explain to me where all of these "palestinians" came from.

May I see citations for your numbers ?
I'm sure that reproduction and 20th century medical advances (reduced child mortality, longer life span) accounts for some of the increase, but I agree with you that that does seem
to be a stretch.

They are boiling mad because jews live there. They didn't have any problem at all with the king of jordan kicking them off of 80% of the land that was given to them in the palestinian mandate.

1. Arabs and Jews lived together in these lands for centuries without rancor before the establishment of the State.
2. What do you mean, 'the palestinian mandate' ?

No comparison since there never was a country called palestine and never had been a palestinian language, or a palestinian government. Besides, islam has a long history of being an agressor and attacking other nations to claim their land and subdue the people who lived there. What do you think started the crusades?

We are enjoying that discussion on the other thread



Now look at these last two paragraphs you wrote:

No argument there. When God gathers up the entire nation of israel, the state of Israel won't be large enough so at that time, the remainder of the promised land will be handed over to them.

I don't see Israel going after the entire block of real estate that God promised them. And if you have read the bible, you will see that God doesn't love everyone. Far from it. Ordering entire peoples killed to the last child and the livestock too is hardly the definition of love.

I guess you already know that your position - at least on this topic - is derived at least in part from your religious ideas.
Where do I begin to address those last two paragraphs ?
They describe God as being even more partial to Jews than the Muslims portray Him being partial to Muslims !

In any case, at this point we are not debating politics; we are debating religion.

And I do recoil from arguing with people about their faith.

In the first place it's completely useless ; in the second it only leads to antagonism which will create a predicament where we will stop communicating at all.

I'll just say this: not everyone shares these beliefs, so I don't think we can formulate policy on them.

 

[Lilly Marlene]

Here is something I hope you will watch palerider: it is not sensationalized in any way at all.
In fact,
it is done by an Israeli. Below the link I am posting a description which I *think* is by the poster (whose name I would frankly rather not write for reasons you'll see).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7076559682845192036

Extended Description

This is a film that simply provides a “fly on the wall” account of various checkpoints on the Palestine-Israel border. Miles from anywhere, people travel frequently, walking long distances, to go to hospitals or to work. The Israeli guards like to ’show them’ and routinely harass them by making them stand in the blazing sun, driving rain, or deep snow for many hours (eg up to ten hours) before returning their papers and often sending them home. They are polite, but admit to the cameras that this is how they deal with people - force them to stand in the rain.

It could almost be a laid back Palestinian expose of what is happening at the checkpoints except - and here is the double-whammy - it is made by an Israeli, with Israeli funding - and it has been snapped up and promoted by the Israelis in cinemas but also the Palestinians - what is perhaps even more shocking (according to the director Yoav Shamir at the Edinburgh International Film Festival) it is now being used by the Israeli forces as training material for their guards.

I also like the style of it, no commentary, just “fly on the wall”-filming (minus the single comment made by the cameraman to a soldier) - In my opinion that is real documentary. You get to see what is going on and is allowed to develop your own interpretation

 

[palerider]

Here is something I hope you will watch palerider: it is not sensationalized in any way at all.
In fact,
it is done by an Israeli. Below the link I am posting a description which I *think* is by the poster (whose name I would frankly rather not write for reasons you'll see).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7076559682845192036

Interesting Lilly. Have you ever been to that part of the world? If you had, would you find it interesting to see a "palestinian" peasant speaking english to an Israeli guard at a checkpoint?


The major complaint seems to be that they are forced to wait in order to go where they want to go and are inconvenienced greatly. We had one serious instance of terrorism here involving airplanes and overnight, we found ourselves waiting for 3, 4, 5, or more hours to board a plane. Luckily, we have comfortable airports in which to wait, but if we didn't, we would have been waiting for hours in whatever weather we happened to be in. And that was from just one incident of terrorism involving planes.

Suppose, we regularly had people walking up to the service counters in the airports sporting suicide bombs with the intention of killing as many as possible. How many incidences of that do you think it would take before you were no longer waiting inside the airport but outside, for how many more hours before you even got into the terminal building?

Keeping a suicide bomber waiting is a psychological tactic. When you keep them waiting, there is a greater potential for them to exhibit behavior that might identify their motives. Police in this country play the same game with suspects. Keep them waiting and see if they give themselves away. In the case of the "palestinians" and the history they have created for themselves, they are all suspects.

This situation, as bad as it is, is one of their own making and I am afraid that I can't work up much pity for them. We wait for hours now as the result of 1 incident, ask yourself what it would be like if there had been literally thousands of incidents.

 

[Lilly Marlene]

Interesting Lilly. Have you ever been to that part of the world? If you had, would you find it interesting to see a "palestinian" peasant speaking english to an Israeli guard at a checkpoint?

So you would dismiss the footage - because a few times they spoke in broken English ?
Palerider,
English is spoken all over the globe. It is not in the least surprising that it would be one common language
in which these Israelis and Palestinians might grope about, in the effort to convey ideas to one another.

The major complaint seems to be that they are forced to wait in order to go where they want to go and are inconvenienced greatly. We had one serious instance of terrorism here involving airplanes and overnight, we found ourselves waiting for 3, 4, 5, or more hours to board a plane...

.............................................

This situation, as bad as it is, is one of their own making and I am afraid that I can't work up much pity for them. We wait for hours now as the result of 1 incident, ask yourself what it would be like if there had been literally thousands of incidents.

I can understand your point of view and the argument you advance here is effective.
However,
it ignores a vital difference between the 911 attacks here and the suicide bombings that torment Israelis (and please understand that I don't endorse either).

 

[palerider]

I can understand your point of view and the argument you advance here is effective.
However,
it ignores a vital difference between the 911 attacks here and the suicide bombings that torment Israelis (and please understand that I don't endorse either).

The long history of suicide bombings is far worse than the 9/11 attacks on us. Imagine what it would be like here if we knew that someone was going to blow up somone else two or three times per week for years upon years.

 

[Lilly Marlene]

The long history of suicide bombings is far worse than the 9/11 attacks on us. Imagine what it would be like here if we knew that someone was going to blow up somone else two or three times per week for years upon years.

Yes, I know that I could not live that way, with the rocket situation.
But even so, it is comparing apples with little red hens.

 

[palerider]

Yes, I know that I could not live that way, with the rocket situation.
But even so, it is comparing apples with little red hens.

So you don't think that Israel should take whatever measures are necessary to try and protect the people in the face of near daily bombings for decade upon decade?

 

[Lilly Marlene]

So you don't think that Israel should take whatever measures are necessary to try and protect the people in the face of near daily bombings for decade upon decade?

Oh I definitely have an opinion on that for you. I will tell it to you AFTER you answer the question I asked of you, several days ago in post #31 of this very thread, about the American Indians - and also the source for the numbers you cited ( which I also requested in post #31).

[A couple of days later]

I see that you won't answer my questions. How about answering just the first question and I'll withdraw my request for documentation of your numbers ?

 

[Smila]

I am new here and this is my first post. But after reading through this thread it seems that Lilly is upset that a Jewish state exists and questions the need, rationale, history and bibilical references for it. So, I would like to pose a pretty direct question to Lilly.

What do you think should happen to the state of Israel? Do you think that all Israeli Jews should leave and return to Europe? What is your proposed solution?

 

[Lilly Marlene]

I am new here and this is my first post. But after reading through this thread it seems that Lilly is upset that a Jewish state exists and questions the need, rationale, history and bibilical references for it. So, I would like to pose a pretty direct question to Lilly.

Welcome to the board, Smila.
Please show me anything I've written that questions the need, rationale, history, or biblical references for the State of Israel.
I have not questioned any of those things at all; in fact I have amplified on them.

If I am upset over anything, it would be over the same issues discussed by the first poster and by inbadfaith. My bringing up the Neturei Karta's opposition to the State of Israel was not necessarily an agreement with the stance they take; it was to demonstrate that opposition to the present state of Israel is not anti-semitic as one person was contending.

What do you think should happen to the state of Israel? Do you think that all Israeli Jews should leave and return to Europe? What is your proposed solution?

I would be happy to answer your question, but I have already told my opponent that I will do so *after* he answers what I asked him six days ago.

You can write to me in private if you like and I'll tell you my position.

I can tell you this much: it does not involve forcing anyone to leave and go back to Europe.
Please recall the prior post in this thread in which I commented that some things are spilt milk and the best idea is to do what is least harmful now for the greatest number of both the Jews and the Arabs in that area.

 

[Smila]

Lilly - you have spent an enormous amount of time in this thread arguing against Israel as a homeland for Jewish people. You can go back and read your arguments for yourself. I have no desire to point them out to you. In fact, you have used every trick in the book - even going as far to say that Ashkanizi Jews have no right of return to their homeland. And yet you plow ahead seemingly oblivious to how offensive that might be to Jewish people - of any type. I don't know if you are anti-semitic or not but I do find most of your remarks remarkably insensitive to the Jewish faith and oftentimes woefully inaccurate. Do you realize that you are utilizing the same arguments put forth by the American Nazi party? Yes. They disquise their raging anti-semitism in the same arguments you have espoused here. I have no idea what your political affiliation is but I will tell you that the extreme left has met the extreme right on the internet political spectrum over this one issue. You both share the same ridiculous arguments and argue the same inaccurate history.

I must also tell you that your reference to the history of my homeland as "split milk" is mind-boggling in its ignorance. Have you no idea how offensive that is?

Feh - this argument of yours is nothing new. Its all over the net. From the left, from the right. I am sick of it. No one - not even you - wishes to engage in conversations about solving problems. All I have seen out there is vitriolic attacks against Israel for being what it is - a zionist homeland to Jews. Being a zionist is being a Jew. Its part of the faith. Get it?

I will give you credit though for couching your anti-Israel sentiments in such a civil tone. You almost make anti-semitism look scholarly.

I have no desire to continue this conversation with you privately or publically. I just wanted to make my point and leave.

 

[Smila]

Zionists or Nazis? - Welcome to the new Anti-Semitism


The comparison between Zionists, Israelis or Jews and Nazis is made by three distinct groups and for two very different purposes. In all cases the analogy is little to do with facts and instead tries to paint Zionists, Jews or Israel as the personification of evil.

This vilification in the form of comparison with Nazism or otherwise is either the result of underlying antisemitism or is simply making use of antisemitic tendencies in society to achieve support for some other objective, often political. The propoganda of the Arab States is an obvious example of hate for political ends. Though there is underlying antisemitism in this case as well, the primary benefit of creating a hatered of Zionism / Jews / Israel is to deflect critisism at home. Like wise in Nazi Germany the Jews were blamed for the loss of the first world war by Nazi Germany, and for every other problem the Nazi propogandists could think of.

In a similar fashion Jews today are in some minority corners of the web being blamed for both 9/11 and for the War in Iraq. This general antisemitic trend of blaming the Jews is one reason some (not realising the significance) try to blame Jews for the greatest two historic evils they can think of: Nazism and South African apartheid. While some blame Jews / Israel for these things, others use the Palestinians as their pawn and instead say Israel is LIKE apartheid South Africa and that Zionism is LIKE Nazism.

For the far right, the goals of the comparison with Nazism in particular is often aiming to reduce the horror of Nazism as much as it is to vilify the Jews. As long as the Nazi Holocaust is a crime so abhorent that it is not up for "debate", neo-Nazis will find it hard to recuit and impossible to gain power and make a new Nazi state.

More alarming is when other minority groups like the British Muslim community (equaly disliked by the Neo-Nazis) fall into using the same Neo-Nazi arguments. An example is the boycott of Holocaust Memorial Day by the Muslim Council of Britain. The real reason behind it is to try reduce the "victim status" of the Jewish community so that attacks on them (or on Israel) are tolerated more by society at large. The same logic has been used by Muslim groups who insteado f supporting Jews when complaints are made about antisemitic acts instead try and undermine the complaints and insist that "they have it worse". When the conversation is not abstract but about a particular case the community is working to resolve these attitudes are abhorent and counter productive for all anti-racism campaigners.

The last group that needs to be mentioned is the British left. While clearly against Nazism, neo-nazism and the far right in general, antisemitism on the left is often not acknowledged and is seen as an acceptable form of racism. To arrive at this point the left often borrow from arguments of the NEo-Nazi right, or borrow from the Muslim anti-Israel lobby who in term borrow from the Arab states propoganda which is itself often based on neo-Nazi is not actual Nazi propoganda.

It is our observation that the rise in antisemitic attacks in recent years (2005 and 2006) combined with the high profile academic boycotts tagretting Israel raised the problem of left wing antisemitism in the mind of the public. In a retiring speech at NUS conference 2006 a non Jewish member of the NUS executive explaimed that in fighting racism we must not forget about antisemitism and we as a society must face up to the fact that Antisemitism is NOT a lesser form of racism. That it needed saying is a sad reflection on the situation, that it was said shows people are beginning to tackle the problem.

Another positive sign is the work on antisemitism within European Community. The EU definition of antisemitism explicitly lables as antisemitism "drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis". This is a definition of antisemitism that is now in use by law enforcement across europe. This makes the use of the analogy a hate crime. The inclusion of this point shows the huge gap between reality and propoganda as well as an acknolwedgement of the danger posed by those pushing this Israel = Nazism (or Zionism = Nazism) analogy.

As mentioned some try a far more direct approach, to blame Zionists or Jews for the Holocaust or the rise of Nazism. While there were some meetings early on in an attempt to transfer Jews our of Germany (and save their lives) some have tried to use the historical fact of communication between Nazi officials and Jews outside Germany as "proof" that the Jews and Nazis were in active collaboration. The sickness of this attempt to rewrite history is almost beyond words. Yes, Jews did work with the Nazis in order to try save peoples lives. The Nazi ghettos were run by Jewish committees and even in the death camps the Nazis used Jews as police and to sort the belongings of those they had gassed. Why did the Jews cooperate? The choice was to cooperate and try make things a little better, or not to cooperate and to be killed. We are not in a position to judge their decisions. What we do know is that despite attempts by the Zionism movement to rescue Jews, negotiations in the end broke down. The Zionist organisations worked with the British against Germany and th stories of their acts (often in the Special Operations Executive) are legendary, e.g. Hannah Senesh. This is the real history of Zionism against Nazism

Source - Zionismontheweb.com

 

[Lilly Marlene]

Lilly - you have spent an enormous amount of time in this thread arguing against Israel as a homeland for Jewish people. You can go back and read your arguments for yourself. I have no desire to point them out to you.

Well, I'm afraid you'll have to point them out if you want to claim that I've made them, Smila. The thread is not very long - it should be easy.

The only thing I've said that could possibly be mistaken for what you suppose ...is when I reminded another poster that the first choice of Theodore Hertzl for the Jewish homeland was a place in Africa. That is true and you can fact check it for yourself. It hardly equates to "arguing against Israel as a homeland for Jewish people". But it does show the arbitrariness of the geographic selection, at least in the mind of the founders of the State.

There is something very wrong in a situation where a person cannot state what is true in a matter of public discourse.

In fact, you have used every trick in the book - even going as far to say that Ashkanizi Jews have no right of return to their homeland.

Where exactly did I say that please ? And what other "tricks" have I used? You should be able to show me both those things if they are true.

And yet you plow ahead seemingly oblivious to how offensive that might be to Jewish people - of any type. I don't know if you are anti-semitic or not but I do find most of your remarks remarkably insensitive to the Jewish faith and oftentimes woefully inaccurate.

I have had several very close Jewish friends since my teenage years, and right at this moment we are buying land thanks solely to a huge bonus my husband received from a Jewish client.
To suggest that I or anyone else is "antisemitic" if they don't march in lockstep with AIPAC and JINSA, is merely to show me that you don't know how to distinguish "anti-semitic" from "anti-Zionist".

Now ...you just told me I had made some remarks which are "woefully inaccurate".
Would it be asking too much for you to point out the supposed inaccuracies ?
After all,
If I am saying something that is inaccurate - as you claim - then this forum is your chance to make the correction for any readers to see, so I find it instructive that you haven't done so.

Do you realize that you are utilizing the same arguments put forth by the American Nazi party? Yes. They disquise their raging anti-semitism in the same arguments you have espoused here. I have no idea what your political affiliation is but I will tell you that the extreme left has met the extreme right on the internet political spectrum over this one issue. You both share the same ridiculous arguments and argue the same inaccurate history.

Once again, you have still not told me what the "inaccuracies" are.
I don't care which people on the left or right agree or disagree with me.
The quest is for what is true.
If you are going to keep saying that I'm writing something that is incorrect, then you should also tell me what that is and where I went wrong in my assessment.

I must also tell you that your reference to the history of my homeland as "split milk" is mind-boggling in its ignorance. Have you no idea how offensive that is?

Actually I said "spilt milk" and I was characterizing some specific aspects of the history. And no, I don't. I don't know how offensive it is and I surely don't know how it could be called "ignorant". Just what am I supposedly "ignoring" ?

Would you like to put me in prison for discussing such an offensive subject ... the way they do now in Germany and a few other countries ?

Feh - this argument of yours is nothing new. Its all over the net. From the left, from the right. I am sick of it. No one - not even you - wishes to engage in conversations about solving problems. All I have seen out there is vitriolic attacks against Israel for being what it is - a zionist homeland to Jews. Being a zionist is being a Jew. Its part of the faith. Get it?

Your statement is patently incorrect; in fact, that is the very reason I injected the Neturei Karta into this discussion in the first place.
The Neturei Karta are pious Jews.
And they vociferously oppose the State of Israel as it is currently installed.
That is why they as a group are muffled, hobbled and persecuted.
Maybe you are the one who needs to "get it".

In addition to that, I told you I would be happy to talk about how to solve the problem. I told you I would do so in private because at this point - on this thread - I am still in the midst of a discussion with someone else and have told him I would move to that *after* he answered a question I posed to him a week ago.
And?
You told me at the end of your post that you did not want to continue this conversation in public or private [see my last quote from you at the end of this post]. But in an adjacent paragraph you accuse ME of being the one who "does not wish to engage in conversations about solving problems".

As I said, I'm ready anytime.
Your projections are very transparent.

I will give you credit though for couching your anti-Israel sentiments in such a civil tone. You almost make anti-semitism look scholarly.

The civil tone should tell you plainly that I do not have personal rancor involved in this issue. What I try to do is to see it as a person uninvolved in the polemics from either side.

I have no desire to continue this conversation with you privately or publically. I just wanted to make my point and leave.

Well, the only point you've made so far is that my position offends you.
There are a lot of things which offend me too.
I am sorry you do not feel up to a free and open discourse about this, but the days are over when people are going to be intimidated into silence by the threat of being labeled "anti semitic".

Also, thanks for the article from the Zionists, but I have never compared the Israelis to Nazis so I have no idea what you are hoping to achieve with that.

 

[Friendindeed]

Nazi Hitler Nazi Nazi. All in your posts Smila and nobody elses.
Are you familiar with "Godwin's Law" ?
Because you have just proved it.

You should take a tip from palerider if you want to defend the state of Israel, argue the points in an honest way instead of hit-n-runs & mudslinging.

 

[valgal]

am I seeing really that we are debating policy based on the bible?