Is Western culture being destroyed?

[Mare Tranquillity]

I wouldn't say nonsense...like the Quran, it has to be read and understood in the context of it's times. Issac Asimov wrote a series of interesting books called the Bible as History which explored the historical aspects of it. They were quite good though it's been more then 25 years since I've read them. There's a lot of myth and there's a good bit of politicizing as well by the Church when it was consoledating it's power. It's got a lot of beauty too. I've always loved the Song of Solomon.

I've never believed it (or anything) to be the literal word of any diety.

If the word of "God(s)" exist(s) anywhere - it's entwined in the code of our DNA.

My point was that the violent stupidity advocated supposedly by God is nonsense. Yes, there are some good pieces of writing in all the holy books, and in a lot of regular books too.

 

[numinus]

Based on the ongoing conversations know Numinus is a practicing Catholic but I bet Mare Tranquility is an ex-Catholic.

There are none so vehemently anti-religion as ex-Catholics.

(I'm neither)

I'm a nominal catholic. I simply cannot abide sitting in church for two hours every week. And if the present pope gets his way, I'll probably be among the first to get excommunicated.

It can't be helped, I suppose.

 

[numinus]

I seem to recall that in the Bible it says that you are not in a position to tell someone that they are or are not beyond redemption. You don't come across as a very good spokesperson for your religion, your grasp of Scripture seems weak.

I was talking about intellectual redemption -- something scripture alone, sadly, does not provide.

Don't be so hysterical, Nums, you look silly with all that foam around your mouth.

Its more resignation than hysteria. As I said, against calcified ignorance, even god contends in vain.

If you have free-will and some supernatural being tells you what you HAVE to do with that free-will or He will send you to Hell for eternal torment, then that supernatural being is using your FEAR of Hell and eternal torment to make you do what He demands. Christianity is a religion based on fear of Heavenly vegeance.

No. Human free will is the faculty by which we discern and obtain the FULLNESS OF HUMAN LIFE. If you act in a way that contradicts this, you are not in fact free, but a SLAVE to your own base nature.

The nature of sin and eternal punishment therefore, in view of soteriology, becomes moot. Until you learn to act in a manner fit for human existence, hence obtain the rewards inherent in such an action, you are doomed to an existence that is less than human -- a personal hell of your own making.

So, you can act according to divine revelation, or discern the SAME thing through the natural operation of human reason -- your choice.

Understand?

I gotta tell ya, Nums, if that encyclical was the culmination of western philosophical thought, then we are in deeeeeep trouble. I mean look at the basis for Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was His own Father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and drink His blood, and telepathically tell Him that you accept Him as your Master, so He can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... That's rational?

I can see that you have not read the particular encyclical. What I cannot understand is how you pretend to criticize it without knowing it to begin with?

If the standard for rational action is an informed choice -- a fundamental awareness of such an action's logical consequences -- then it follows that rejection of something without awareness is NOT AN ACT OF FREE WILL. To my mind, only beasts of a lesser order of rationality behave without free will. They are slaves to their own base nature.

 

[numinus]

I mean look at the basis for Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was His own Father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and drink His blood,

The eucharist is a ritual depicting, not only spirirtual sustenance, but the bond that exists within a community sharing a meal together.

and telepathically tell Him that you accept Him as your Master,

Try father -- which was an outrage to the jews.

The thing is, one instinctively rejects an external 'master' acting as some sort of police. When jesus clarified that the relationship is like that of a loving father and his prodigal son, we reject it as well.

So, what exactly suits your logic -- that there is no creator and that we came about randomly from nothing? You are free to delude yourself with that as well and it wouldn't make a wit of difference to your human existence.

so He can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

That's rational?

More literal nonsense.

A man and a woman is depicted as two separate entities of the same being. That their conjugal union is the logical step for them to be whole.

And partaking of the FRUIT OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, against the very commandment of the one who CREATED EVERYTHING, depicts a situation where HUMAN REASON PROCEED WITHOUT ETHICS.

Btw, humanae vitae doesn't explain genesis. You can get genesis at any catholic catechism.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

If the standard for rational action is an informed choice -- a fundamental awareness of such an action's logical consequences -- then it follows that rejection of something without awareness is NOT AN ACT OF FREE WILL. To my mind, only beasts of a lesser order of rationality behave without free will. They are slaves to their own base nature.

In light of this paragraph, why is it that you continue to give me static about being a transsexual? You obviously don't know anything about this birth defect so what gives you the idea that you can speak critically of people who HAVE the birth defect?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

The eucharist is a ritual depicting, not only spirirtual sustenance, but the bond that exists within a community sharing a meal together.

Call it what ever euphemistic term you like, but the bottom line is that it is ritual cannibalism.

Try father -- which was an outrage to the jews.

The thing is, one instinctively rejects an external 'master' acting as some sort of police. When jesus clarified that the relationship is like that of a loving father and his prodigal son, we reject it as well.

So, what exactly suits your logic -- that there is no creator and that we came about randomly from nothing? You are free to delude yourself with that as well and it wouldn't make a wit of difference to your human existence.

In the story of the prodigal son, the father did not set a time limit and consign his son to eternal torment for not making the deadline, whereas that is in effect what is done by the Christians religion.

No place have I ever said that I don't believe in God nor that I think our existence is an accident. I have no problem with the teachings of Jesus or the existence of God, my problem lies with the practice of Christianity which ignores the teachings of Jesus, sets up men as arbiters of God's Will, and condemns people on the basis of human interpretation of an old book for which there no proof that God had any hand in the writing of. What is difficult for you to understand is that I'm not rejecting God, I'm rejecting the practice of Christianity as it is generally practiced in the US.

More literal nonsense.

Yes, I agree, taking the Bible literally is nonsense.

A man and a woman is depicted as two separate entities of the same being. That their conjugal union is the logical step for them to be whole.

Another piece of nonsense is assigning gender to spirits, a union of two spirits can make them a gestalt, the gender of the bodies that they inhabit is irrelevant. Love is the magical ingredient, Nums, and that is what you deny.

And partaking of the FRUIT OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, against the very commandment of the one who CREATED EVERYTHING, depicts a situation where HUMAN REASON PROCEED WITHOUT ETHICS.

Another piece of nonsense if taken literally.

Btw, humanae vitae doesn't explain genesis. You can get genesis at any catholic catechism.

Trust me on this one, Nums, the encyclical doesn't explain much of anything, but it does parade around the swollen human egos of the folks who wrote and published it. (Oh yeah, the little explanation of Christianity that I posted was intended to be humorous. I thought it was cleverly written even though I don't know who did it and thus could not give credit to the author.)

 

[Coyote]

I'm a nominal catholic. I simply cannot abide sitting in church for two hours every week. And if the present pope gets his way, I'll probably be among the first to get excommunicated.

It can't be helped, I suppose.

You're a thinking Catholic.


Sometimes thinking isn't a appreciated.


I'd probably be burned at the stake or something. That's ok though. I love a good barbecue.

 

[Coyote]

Until you learn to act in a manner fit for human existence, hence obtain the rewards inherent in such an action, you are doomed to an existence that is less than human -- a personal hell of your own making.

Now that is a most interesting statement....

What constitutes "a manner fit for human existence"?

 

[numinus]

In light of this paragraph, why is it that you continue to give me static about being a transsexual? You obviously don't know anything about this birth defect so what gives you the idea that you can speak critically of people who HAVE the birth defect?

I do not 'give you static' because you are a transexual. I do so because you are ignorant.

 

[numinus]

Call it what ever euphemistic term you like, but the bottom line is that it is ritual cannibalism.

Only an ignoramus would understand a RITUAL based on its outward manifestation alone.

In the story of the prodigal son, the father did not set a time limit and consign his son to eternal torment for not making the deadline, whereas that is in effect what is done by the Christians religion.

No.

The christian religion is about making a better place, here and now.

What happens to you after you die is, more or less, a done deal.

No place have I ever said that I don't believe in God nor that I think our existence is an accident. I have no problem with the teachings of Jesus or the existence of God, my problem lies with the practice of Christianity which ignores the teachings of Jesus, sets up men as arbiters of God's Will, and condemns people on the basis of human interpretation of an old book for which there no proof that God had any hand in the writing of. What is difficult for you to understand is that I'm not rejecting God, I'm rejecting the practice of Christianity as it is generally practiced in the US.

And christianity, as 'generally practiced', is the summation of infinitessimally little things done out of pure love. And like all good things, they tend to go unnoticed.

And why would anyone give a damn -- if majority of people are of your ilk -- people who revel in the evil in everything, hmmm?

Yes, I agree, taking the Bible literally is nonsense.

And yet, you persist on literal, fundamentally defective interpretations, eh? Sounds like someone has an agenda.

Another piece of nonsense is assigning gender to spirits, a union of two spirits can make them a gestalt, the gender of the bodies that they inhabit is irrelevant. Love is the magical ingredient, Nums, and that is what you deny.

Sigh

Your gender is part of who you are -- your BEING.

There is a simpler way to phrase this. Unfortunately for you, I'm not such a fan of simple-mindedness.

Another piece of nonsense if taken literally.

And what would be a correct interpretation, hmmm?

Trust me on this one, Nums, the encyclical doesn't explain much of anything, but it does parade around the swollen human egos of the folks who wrote and published it. (Oh yeah, the little explanation of Christianity that I posted was intended to be humorous. I thought it was cleverly written even though I don't know who did it and thus could not give credit to the author.)

And humor is all that there is to it.

 

[numinus]

You're a thinking Catholic.


Sometimes thinking isn't a appreciated.


I'd probably be burned at the stake or something. That's ok though. I love a good barbecue.

And you're the main course. Yum.

 

[numinus]

Now that is a most interesting statement....

What constitutes "a manner fit for human existence"?

A moral imperative.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I do not 'give you static' because you are a transexual. I do so because you are ignorant.

Could you support that accusation please?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Only an ignoramus would understand a RITUAL based on its outward manifestation alone.

Once you eat of the flesh and drink the blood it's inside of you and then it is also an "inward" manifestation, isn't it?

No.
The christian religion is about making a better place, here and now.What happens to you after you die is, more or less, a done deal.And christianity, as 'generally practiced', is the summation of infinitessimally little things done out of pure love. And like all good things, they tend to go unnoticed.And why would anyone give a damn -- if majority of people are of your ilk -- people who revel in the evil in everything, hmmm? And yet, you persist on literal, fundamentally defective interpretations, eh? Sounds like someone has an agenda.Sigh There is a simpler way to phrase this. Unfortunately for you, I'm not such a fan of simple-mindedness.And what would be a correct interpretation, hmmm? And humor is all that there is to it.

All of this seems to be nothing more than a mish-mash of unsupported statements and vitriolic personal attacks without basis in evidence.

Your gender is part of who you are -- your BEING.

YES! That is exactly what I have been getting at all along, and a small birth defect caused by the misfiring of the complex and delicate fetal hormone system during the 8th to 18th weeks of development doesn't change the gender that one is deep in their being. So, transsexuals do the best they can to make their defective bodies match their internal knowledge of who they are. Perfect, you're gettin' a grip on the subject now, Nums.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

And you're the main course. Yum.

Sorry, Nums, but that wouldn't be "ritual" cannibalism.