Is There A God ???

[9sublime]

OK well done numinus you learnt a new word, *****. Now you've learnt it, chalk it up to experience and stop calling everyone it.

 

[numinus]

OK well done numinus you learnt a new word, *****. Now you've learnt it, chalk it up to experience and stop calling everyone it.

You don't like how the word rolls in your mouth when you chastise someone who is clearly a chair short of a picnic?

 

[Plato232]

after 100+ replies we are no closer

Well here I am again. I posted this topic because I wanted the debators of this forum to air their opinions. After 121+ replies I can see that this is the same as most forums.

most of the replies on this forum are non-sensical. Debators have detached themselves from what I originally asked them to state and debate against and have instead turned it into another 'whos who in debating prowess' instead of addressing the question at heart.

All I asked was to state your opinion, less than 5% of the debators herein have done that.

So I ask again. Put your ego aside and for the interests of a guest reading these threads please act in the following manner.

State your opinion.
argue others opinions

but do so in a logical and well thought out manner.

most of this topic is worthy of the recycle bin. I expected much more on probably the biggest topic that could be debated.

I have just come from zeitgeistdebate.com and even though there are only 5+ debators on that site. they at least have logic and reason to their threads....

 

[9sublime]

Sorry if this forum isnt up to your standards matey. Don't get all arsey because we didn't give you some of the most profound answers in history while you waltzed between forums giving people average debate fodder. You think quite highly of yourself, don't you?

 

[vyo476]

Well here I am again. I posted this topic because I wanted the debators of this forum to air their opinions. After 121+ replies I can see that this is the same as most forums.

most of the replies on this forum are non-sensical. Debators have detached themselves from what I originally asked them to state and debate against and have instead turned it into another 'whos who in debating prowess' instead of addressing the question at heart.

All I asked was to state your opinion, less than 5% of the debators herein have done that.

Ask yourself if the best way to get what you want is to insult the people you want it from.

So I ask again. Put your ego aside and for the interests of a guest reading these threads please act in the following manner.

State your opinion.
argue others opinions

but do so in a logical and well thought out manner.

Good to see that you're guest moderating. Thanks. It isn't appreciated.

For the record my stance on "God" is that absent empirical evidence no firm decision can or should be made. Therefore no belief is "incorrect" and no one belief is "correct."

In terms outside organized religion I believe all things exist at levels of complexity yet to be explored; at one of these levels you might indeed find "God." Then again, maybe not.

In other words I'm an agnostic.

most of this topic is worthy of the recycle bin. I expected much more on probably the biggest topic that could be debated.

You are kind of high on yourself, aren't you? Not only are our posts not good enough for you, you assume that your topic is "probably the biggest that could be debated." I challenge this assertion. As the existence of an actual "God" is unqualifiable the topic is unworthy of a great deal of attention.

And not to get too picky, but this is a political forum, not a theological one. While we do have threads pertaining to a wide vareity of societal topics aside from standard political ones, assuming that your own non-political topic is going to stir up amazing debate in a place like this was just an act of setting yourself up for disappointment and then blaming us for it after the fact. Smooth.

I have just come from zeitgeistdebate.com and even though there are only 5+ debators on that site. they at least have logic and reason to their threads....

If they are so wonderful, why bother coming here?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Mare.
The basis of your motivation is mysticism, otherwise you could’ve directed me to just one piece of physical evidence that supports the idea that consciousness can exist independently of the host….not only can’t you do that, but more often than not, I suspect people who support/flirt with these strange idea’s have done so under the influence of mind altering substances, IOW, hallucinations led to inspiration {bizarre, but then again, most people are scientifically and philosophically illiterate}.

Science deals with rationality, pattern recognition, physical evidence and repeatable experiments……you lack all of that, yet ask me what would be wrong with launching a scientific investigation into the subject!!!!!!!!

You then ask what would be wrong with studying it anyway, just in case you accidentally discovered something worthwhile, IOW, if you learnt something scientific, something that could be verified…..well, how about studying something with a physical basis for its existence, you might then intentionally discover something worthwhile!

Anyway, knock yourself out, I think you’re dreaming, but my opinions not only won’t sway you, but will further enhance the idea that you’re onto a good thing….ie, you have a problem with rationality, objectivity and reality at a basic level.

I’m done btw, so if you choose to reply, make it short and sweet, because if it’s a recycling of what you’ve already said, I most likely won’t respond.

One more thing, despite the apparent tone of my writing, I don’t know you well enough to deem you unworthy of further discussions, but not on this subject. All the best.

I don't agree with David Henry and Nums about us knowing all there is to know about consciousness and the human mind. Here's an article that contibutes a bit of information suggesting that we may not know as much as some of us loudly proclaim. The salient point is that we just don't know how the mind and consciousness work, it's something that needs more study and less verbal abuse.

http://www.newsday.com/news/health/ny-hsmir1224,0,1622123.story

 

[numinus]

Well here I am again. I posted this topic because I wanted the debators of this forum to air their opinions. After 121+ replies I can see that this is the same as most forums.

most of the replies on this forum are non-sensical. Debators have detached themselves from what I originally asked them to state and debate against and have instead turned it into another 'whos who in debating prowess' instead of addressing the question at heart.

All I asked was to state your opinion, less than 5% of the debators herein have done that.

So I ask again. Put your ego aside and for the interests of a guest reading these threads please act in the following manner.

State your opinion.
argue others opinions

but do so in a logical and well thought out manner.

most of this topic is worthy of the recycle bin. I expected much more on probably the biggest topic that could be debated.

I have just come from zeitgeistdebate.com and even though there are only 5+ debators on that site. they at least have logic and reason to their threads....

If you can grasp the most rudimentary concepts of physical cosmology and the mathematics behind it, you would realize that the only logical conclusion is a created universe.

And if you do not find any sense in physics, have it ever occured to you that maybe, just maybe, the topic is simply way over your head?

 

[WileE]

So, who's the criminal?

The only way I can get someone to do what I want is to provide a positive benefit. "God said" is nothing more than a con-game to get someone to do something they want without having to justify asking. A criminal act.

Is it the singer or the song?

Oops! I just went back and found that JJ is banned. Oh well. Maybe someone else feels the same way.

 

[WileE]

...

whether you believe in a certain religion or you believe in spirituality or you may be an athiest or you may be agnostic. I ask everyone to air their views

Noone is right and noone is wrong. This is the one topic that can't be proved or disproved. All I ask is that you express your views without trying to dismiss others outrightly.

Noone can prove either way and so this is the absolute topic of debate.
all i ask is for everyone entering this debate, please enter it with anopen mind as one side cannot disprove the other.

I am a Christian by environmental tradition, but I take the Buddhist view that the universe has no beginning nor end, but operates according to a "devine reason" that is infallable. The universe can do nothing that is wrong, evil, or self-defeating. We humans are nothing but one infinitesimally small part of what the universe is "up to", at the moment, and when we do anything that is contrary to devine reason, because we fail to realize that we're all made of the same stuff as the universe, we usually pay the price. Buddists resist putting a name on this "divine reason", such as: God or Allah, because they feel it is belittling to that "devine reason", as though we were trying to bring it down to our level where we can see it and feel it, to make sure it's real. Those of us who are more familiar with the Judeo-Christian tradition should have no problem using the name, "God" as long as we constantly bear in mind that we all come from the same "Father".

 

[purplebarney]

I've read through this entire thread. Plato has a real point and I can't believe the moderators on this site are so quick to shoot him down. Most of the threads on this topic are without real thought. but when he outlined this suddenly people start talking sense. This is the biggest topic humans can ever debate and I agree most of the replies on this are very immature.

my take :

regardless its just an opinion. you or I can't prove or disprove god.

but (forgetting the ID approach)

the universe conforms to rules. the universe has an architecture. the big bang theory is laughable. (and i am no stephenhawking) but I do see that when we can't explain the reality we come up with a non logical solution.

hence religion hence big bang. both are incredulous

 

[9sublime]

I am a Christian by environmental tradition, but I take the Buddhist view that the universe has no beginning nor end, but operates according to a "devine reason" that is infallable.

Before chatting to numinus, I believed the cosmological argument to be quite poor, but now I think it goes some way to proving that the universe is not everlasting.

1. Everything in the universe has a cause. Nothing is independent of everything else. Nothing is here by its own accord, but was put into existence by something else e.g. you are here because of your mother and father producing you, and they are here from their parents creating them.

2. By following the cause of everything, there should be a regression to the first cause of the Earth, the first cause of the galaxies and ultimatly the universe itself. This regression therefore must be finite.

3. If the regression is finite, then at some point the universe began.

The universe can do nothing that is wrong, evil, or self-defeating.

I don't see the advantages to mental illnesses or quite a few other things in the universe. Blame God, or if you think the universe is God manifested within it, blame the universe. However, maybe we are simply part of a plan too great for us to understand things like mental illnesses eh?

We humans are nothing but one infinitesimally small part of what the universe is "up to", at the moment, and when we do anything that is contrary to devine reason, because we fail to realize that we're all made of the same stuff as the universe, we usually pay the price. Buddists resist putting a name on this "divine reason", such as: God or Allah, because they feel it is belittling to that "devine reason", as though we were trying to bring it down to our level where we can see it and feel it, to make sure it's real.

Thats a nice approach and I agree with you. But we also bring it down to our level so some people can control and make money off other people, or to fill gaps in our knowledge that scare us like death and the causes of bad things we experience.

Those of us who are more familiar with the Judeo-Christian tradition should have no problem using the name, "God" as long as we constantly bear in mind that we all come from the same "Father".

I'll bear in mind that we all come from the same father when I see proof of exactly who he is.

 

[purplebarney]

what really gets me with religious people is the fact they anthropomophise the 'god'

once again they put humans at the centre of the whole universe. just like ptolemy did. is it not enough that Copernicus and Galileo and Newton all showed humans to not be the centre of the universe and then Darwin.

religion is pointless. I'm not saying god isn't there but i just can't understand how we can be in the 21st century with everything we know and still believe this non-sensical idea.

it is stated that 70%+ still believes in some religion or another. I am quite sure that the real ratio is very much smaller but the fact remains.

if there is a god then it is unknowable to humans, we havn't the minds to comprehend such a thing.

religion is childish
atheism is ignorant
agnostisism is at the moment the only logical way to approach and debate this subject

 

[Gabriel_Bell]

The real issue is not whether there is or ever was a Creator God. The real issue is whether the description in the Old and New Testaments is the accurate definition of said deity.

If so, one needs to realize that the OT God was a bit of a dick with Job, his most devout follower. He also wanted to execute adulterers, so he would have gladly had Donald Trump stoned, waaaaaaaaay back when he cheated in Ivana.

 

[Gabriel_Bell]

I agree that until the existence of a god can be proven, we should take the agnostic position.
Science is generally agnostic about everything.