Iran 30 years after the revolution

Thank you Zakeyeh for your prompt and courteous replies.

Knowing now that you live in Iran, it does bring up some other questions.

In your original post, you mentioned that you may not have access to the internet for long.

What is the nature of you current internet access? Is it through an internet cafe, a friend, a personnal computer? How is it that you may lose access to the internet? Would it be for financial reasons?/political reasons? You are unusually courteous for a poster on a political forum. Would an act of discourtesy cause you to lose access to the internet?

I'm currently sitting at home on my personnal computer. The only things that would cause me to lose internet access (to my knowledge) would be failure to pay the bill or technical difficulties.

There is no political reasons. The reason for my courteous style-as you call it- might be a cultural difference in our talking, doubled by my awareness of the majority being of a different culture, in addition to my lack of enough knowledge about your "talking" language having my "talking in english" exchanged with "reading" for about ten years.
My worry related more to the problem of money. It's only about 5 months since I've apparted from my family in the city of Qom and started living with my husband in tehran. We do have a personal computer, but I've got to be more careful to what expenses I leave for my husband o pay before I settle down and find a job beside my studies.
I'm in no hurry for that since it is not really necessary for women to work here in iran as it is in the west. I think the rate of women house keepers should be higher here; though there is no denial that the capital city has always been further in the changes that development programs brings to families.

There is an office for a studental association I go to which has got free internet for me. Usually I go there 2 or 3 times a week. So it was mostly the delay for the response I was worried about. I was afraid not being able to answer the questions till you were no more interested to read them, but hopefully that would not happen!
 
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Well it depends on the family first. How strict they are.
If he says it as you wrote it I think a very strict family would propably throw him out and deny him as a member of the family (after some shoutings and throwing out things at him!) I think this case would be more likely to happen in such strict families where the parents are unaware of the outside world, the cultural differences of the new generation, what goes on in the internet and so are unable to guess and answer the questions it all makes in their childs minds before it gets to that point.
But if he starts to question islam politely he wouldn't be treated bad. So my 17 yr old brother is encouraged in the family to talk about his doubts on islam. But if he resists all the conversation and bringing his reasons (because my mum has studied theology he would have to try very hard to convince my mother he is reasonablly right) he would probably be asked to live his own life too.
As for the "homosexual" (hs) part I don't think a normal family would bear it either, (including mine!). The family woud try very hard to stop him because it will bring so much shame and disgrace for them. If it were of no use it would be left to the law. So if he gets caught during an illegall sexual relationship he will be punished.
The punishment is about a hundred whips for women and also for men that are only caught naked together. For the men if the act is proved, that is one man confirms it 4 times or 4 men confirm it, then the punishment is death, but if he asked for mercy from God (we call it 'toubah' aword in arabic meaning 'return')before the confirmation, he will be forgiven.

In the Quran, there is the story of the people at the time of prophet Lot who were homosexuals and God killed them all by raining stones at them

putting the (hs) part and such cases aside, there are families that would gradually cut or lessen their relationships with him, and some that would try to pretend nothing has happenned and carry on! That's when they too are'nt so fond of islam themselves. They probably dont always read their prayers or aren't always fasting in ramadan.
We consider the daily muslim prayers as a sign of being a true muslim. I know people who dont read their prayers and still live a happy life. So I think most would prefer to keep the name of a muslim and pick the parts they like from the rules!

that was very interesting, thank you.


you said the punishment was death, does that only apply in your home countries and also how do they put them to death? Electric chair or hanging or be heading?

There was a story about a man who killed his daughters because they were not following Islam then he turned him self in. I think it was in Florida, this program I watched about the culture differences had I think 3 stories about stuff like this, one girl got a job at a hamburger place and when she came home her mom held her down while her dad stabbed her to death. The parents were devout Muslims. Another case the brother stabbed the sister for going to college, she ended up leaving Islam and hides from her family.

I have a hard time with that. I dont mind the idea if disowning your children if they disrespect the faith or live horrible lives. I dont know that I could personally do it but I understand when a faith is so important you cant have one of your kids running around the house currupting the other kids and disrespecting your faith. but I dont like killing in any form.
 
Zakeyeh, do you ever have debate or serious discussion with friends about the Islamic religion? Do you ever wonder if maybe some other religion has better answers about God? Do you ever think maybe the universe has no God? Maybe God is only a human idea.

On the debating part, talking about outside-religious talks I can say it's a long time since I have done it seriously; that's because we are all quite the same here. There was some sessions with my classmates to my will, talking bout the Quran, and sometimes there were these harsh questions. Unfortunately it didn't last long. But I have more or less thought myself about these things. I'm not very happy to say, though it should be good, that I had read all the answers before I could really question them.
Well, Reason, is one way of proving the God, that shapes our mental beliefs. There are a lot of books about these reasons. However proving God to your heart is another question. Sometimes your heart makes a short-cut for you.
If I were to think there is no God I should first doubt my own existence. I only know myself through my relation to God. How can I know who or what I am without knowing where from and how I've come to existence?
I always believed that human was the God's Idea! and never the opposite.;)
 
that was very interesting, thank you.


you said the punishment was death, does that only apply in your home countries and also how do they put them to death? Electric chair or hanging or be heading?

There was a story about a man who killed his daughters because they were not following Islam then he turned him self in. I think it was in Florida, this program I watched about the culture differences had I think 3 stories about stuff like this, one girl got a job at a hamburger place and when she came home her mom held her down while her dad stabbed her to death. The parents were devout Muslims. Another case the brother stabbed the sister for going to college, she ended up leaving Islam and hides from her family.

I have a hard time with that. I dont mind the idea if disowning your children if they disrespect the faith or live horrible lives. I dont know that I could personally do it but I understand when a faith is so important you cant have one of your kids running around the house currupting the other kids and disrespecting your faith. but I dont like killing in any form.

It's usually hanging (in some cases there is electric chairs shooting). (remember death is only for men)
It has to be by the hands of the Law though, so one cannot kill his own son for any reason.
It does look harsh, the killing, but looking at the existence of the law as a revival means for humanity and the whole society, it gets more reasonable.
 
that was very interesting, thank you.


you said the punishment was death, does that only apply in your home countries and also how do they put them to death? Electric chair or hanging or be heading?

There was a story about a man who killed his daughters because they were not following Islam then he turned him self in. I think it was in Florida, this program I watched about the culture differences had I think 3 stories about stuff like this, one girl got a job at a hamburger place and when she came home her mom held her down while her dad stabbed her to death. The parents were devout Muslims. Another case the brother stabbed the sister for going to college, she ended up leaving Islam and hides from her family.

I have a hard time with that. I dont mind the idea if disowning your children if they disrespect the faith or live horrible lives. I dont know that I could personally do it but I understand when a faith is so important you cant have one of your kids running around the house currupting the other kids and disrespecting your faith. but I dont like killing in any form.

In Iran it does. It's usually hanging for death penalties -in some cases there is electric chairs or shooting.
It has to be by the hands of the Law though, so one cannot kill his own son for any reason.
It does look harsh, the killing, but looking at the existence of the law as a revival means for humanity and the whole society, it gets more reasonable.
However your examples don't apply to Iran. They were actually aweful to me as well. Women here are actively present in the society and in universities. (actually the ratio of girls in the uni is higher than the boys). If such things you wrote about were to happen, they would be awefully rare!
 
[threadjack]

May I just say that this is the first thread that I've seen that has not immediately descended into a pitched battle with flame wars going on all over the place. Thanks to all those taking part for your courtesy and to Zakiyah for his patient responses!

[/threadjack]
 
Thank you for your reply. Yes, it is best if you can find religion in your heart for yourself - and not through the words of other people.

I want to tell you some history that maybe you will enjoy hearing.

I visited Iran in 1971, traveling from Isfahan, Shiraz and Tehran. Of course the Shah was in power then. In my experience, Iran was fairly Westernized then. My young and sexy wife could walk through the bazaars without any problem. I remember sitting in a bar on top of a tall hotel overlooking the city of Tehran - it was very pleasant. We visited the crown jewels and many Westerners were traveling then.

In Saudi Arabia and the other Arabic countries (like Bahrain and UAE), the women were all completely covered. In Iran, the younger women mostly wore Western clothes and the head scarf was optional. The country seemed very modern and progressive in those days.

I couldn't believe what happened after the revolution in 1978? Of course, I was not there, but the sudden change to more fundamental Islam law was shocking to me. I couldn't imagine how the modern women could adapt the traditional dress again.

I live in rural Indonesia now, on a rural Island that is 95% Sunni Muslim. The older people are still primitive and don't follow many Islamic traditions. The young/ middle age people learn about Islam in school and follow the 5 pillars of the faith. They go through all the motions of being Muslim, but really have little understanding of why they are praying 5x per day, or fasting, etc. These are rituals. If I ask "why they do them", they tell me I must talk to a religious leader.

More recently, colorful, modernized Muslim dress have become increasingly popular, almost stylish with the women. The television has programs where the heroine wears a headscarf (jilbab?), but also false eyelashes, and heavy makeup. Of course, they cover themselves for funerals, etc.

My question is: What is the current view of women towards men? In your opinion, do women accept that men are the maintainers of women? Or do women which to have the same independence that are give to men?
 
Now I would like to know about the restrictions in other religions.Is there anybody that has information about that? I don't think many christians presume themselves obliged to many instructions. They believe they are saved by the instance they believe in Jesus, fer he is sacrificed to clear their sins! But I still think there shouldn't be a homosexual christian.
hmm?

Regarding your first post I had the luck to go to school with a girl whose father was ambassador to Iran so I guess I never thought of it anything other than a place with large cities and a place with villages too. being a student of the bible I know that the development of a culture can be extremely sophisticated even if the people are herders as was the case with Abraham.

In Christianity we do believe that one is saved (from the spiritual consequences of ones sin) by God's grace which is allowed to be effective through faith. As far as your description of that goes what you wrote is a better understanding than many have in the culture at large here.

Being that one is saved through faith and not by works what one does afterwards does not result in a spiritual consequence. The spiritual consequence I speak of would be separation from a Holy God who cannot by nature be in communion with one who is unholy. The faith makes one holy and the right living follows gradually as a result of God's influence in one's life.

A christian can make any choice anyone else can make right or wrong. If a christian chooses to live a homosexual lifestyle that would not make his faith non-existent. He would still be forgiven and still be holy and able to commune with God. The position of the catholic church is that being a homosexual is not wrong but acting on it is. There are other Christians who do not even think that acting on it is wrong. And there is a whole range of people with positions in between. There are others who even think that being homosexual is wrong whether one acts on it or not, but I do not think their position has much merit. Even though many people believe many different things not all of those people have thought it through carefully and some of those people believe things for foolish reasons.

Are we obliged by many instructions? Ultimately we need only live by the will of God revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. In practice we hold to a number of principles found in the bible and specific instructions Jesus gave based on those principles which were in turn based on the will of God. One of our messengers (Paul) said "all things are permissible, but all things are not expedient." Meaning that we can do whatever we think is best but there might be consequences here and now that are unpleasant for us or others. In any case, yes we are always saved, but that does not mean that sin is without unfortunate effects.
 
Thank you for your reply. Yes, it is best if you can find religion in your heart for yourself - and not through the words of other people.

I want to tell you some history that maybe you will enjoy hearing.

I visited Iran in 1971, traveling from Isfahan, Shiraz and Tehran. Of course the Shah was in power then. In my experience, Iran was fairly Westernized then. My young and sexy wife could walk through the bazaars without any problem. I remember sitting in a bar on top of a tall hotel overlooking the city of Tehran - it was very pleasant. We visited the crown jewels and many Westerners were traveling then.

In Saudi Arabia and the other Arabic countries (like Bahrain and UAE), the women were all completely covered. In Iran, the younger women mostly wore Western clothes and the head scarf was optional. The country seemed very modern and progressive in those days.

I couldn't believe what happened after the revolution in 1978? Of course, I was not there, but the sudden change to more fundamental Islam law was shocking to me. I couldn't imagine how the modern women could adapt the traditional dress again.

I live in rural Indonesia now, on a rural Island that is 95% Sunni Muslim. The older people are still primitive and don't follow many Islamic traditions. The young/ middle age people learn about Islam in school and follow the 5 pillars of the faith. They go through all the motions of being Muslim, but really have little understanding of why they are praying 5x per day, or fasting, etc. These are rituals. If I ask "why they do them", they tell me I must talk to a religious leader.

More recently, colorful, modernized Muslim dress have become increasingly popular, almost stylish with the women. The television has programs where the heroine wears a headscarf (jilbab?), but also false eyelashes, and heavy makeup. Of course, they cover themselves for funerals, etc.

Thank you for sharing your memories.
Do you know how did iranian women become unveiled in the first place? It was at the time of Reza shaah in january 1936 that the shaah, being influenced by what he had seen in turkey and of western women, announced the law of forbidding the veil. Any woman seen with "hijab" on the streets by the guards would have been unveiled by force. Many religious women stayed at home for months in fear of being unveiled. It has been said that after Reza shah's departure from Iran, the law had been somehow forgotten. But still the veiled had been somehow restricted. My mother describes how she was replaced with another girl for being announced as the selected best student at school for not accepting to take her scarf off (that's quite around your visit to Iran). So not everyone was happy with what seemed pleasant to you, beside the fact that many smaller cities had still kept their religous context. But to know how did the women happy with the unveiling accepted the new rules of the 1979 revolution goes back to the many other unsatisfactions of the shah's regime and the great love and respect people felt for imam Khomeini that made them accept the many new rules. However there are women now that aren't so happy with the binding rule of hijab.

My question is: What is the current view of women towards men? In your opinion, do women accept that men are the maintainers of women? Or do women which to have the same independence that are give to men?

Most do on the whole, but there are dissatisfactions...However as we don't have free sexual relationships and due to the importance of the family in our culture, and talking about a "shared life" you can't really talk about independence. It's more about the obligations of this accepted shared life:

There are some islamic rules about the family that obliges the man to pay for his wife and children's living, ie clothing, food, etc. On the otherside, women have to keep their husbands satisfied in their connubial life. Beside the rules, there are the cultural-religious traditions about the way of sharing the duties; earning money outside for men and housekeeping and the most important, taking care and bringing up the children for women.The latter is important due to the signifacance of making the children associated to religion and morality.
Many women are ok with this, because it matches their nature. There is no prohibition stopping women from working or studying as long as they can take care of thir prior duties. Believe me it all depends on the men... how they cope and the help they give to the housework. Many iranian men don't like their wives to work or to go to university or ... . That makes some dissatisfactions. (though women can put some conditions about their desires for work, study, etc as marriage stipulations.)
But there are a lot of families that the man and woman have shared their duties.
But still we see many women working outside that are tired and want to be able to stay at home. I recently read that this return to the family was the wish of many american women too. Is that it?
 
Regarding your first post I had the luck to go to school with a girl whose father was ambassador to Iran so I guess I never thought of it anything other than a place with large cities and a place with villages too. being a student of the bible I know that the development of a culture can be extremely sophisticated even if the people are herders as was the case with Abraham.

In Christianity we do believe that one is saved (from the spiritual consequences of ones sin) by God's grace which is allowed to be effective through faith. As far as your description of that goes what you wrote is a better understanding than many have in the culture at large here.

Being that one is saved through faith and not by works what one does afterwards does not result in a spiritual consequence. The spiritual consequence I speak of would be separation from a Holy God who cannot by nature be in communion with one who is unholy. The faith makes one holy and the right living follows gradually as a result of God's influence in one's life.

A christian can make any choice anyone else can make right or wrong. If a christian chooses to live a homosexual lifestyle that would not make his faith non-existent. He would still be forgiven and still be holy and able to commune with God. The position of the catholic church is that being a homosexual is not wrong but acting on it is. There are other Christians who do not even think that acting on it is wrong. And there is a whole range of people with positions in between. There are others who even think that being homosexual is wrong whether one acts on it or not, but I do not think their position has much merit. Even though many people believe many different things not all of those people have thought it through carefully and some of those people believe things for foolish reasons.

Are we obliged by many instructions? Ultimately we need only live by the will of God revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. In practice we hold to a number of principles found in the bible and specific instructions Jesus gave based on those principles which were in turn based on the will of God. One of our messengers (Paul) said "all things are permissible, but all things are not expedient." Meaning that we can do whatever we think is best but there might be consequences here and now that are unpleasant for us or others. In any case, yes we are always saved, but that does not mean that sin is without unfortunate effects.
Thank you for your detailed answer. I now remember a conversation my mum and dad had with their christian friend, called Andy, years before. he was a very strict christian. I remember he was shocked when they told him that in islam it's you and your deeds that determine your life after death. He could't imagine how one can be judged like that. He too gave a similar description of the effect that God's influence make on your soul prophibiting you from the bad deeds. I don't remember what was my parent's answer. I was quite young and shy to say anything then; But I sort of liked his answer and remembered that we too have a similar belief in islam, more strongly in shi'a, that by believing in and loving the prophet Muhammad and the "ahl-ul-beit" (I talked about this word before), they will help you through.
However this belief doesn't dissafirm the first fact. Islam is based on two exremes of hope and fear. Hope of being saved by God's mercy and fear of being punished for disobeing him. You have to have both equally to be able to walk on the straight path.
It might be useful to mention that Islam believed by muslims as the last and the most complete religion, has a more detailed program and set of rules for life. We believe that by the time of prophet Muhammad, mankind was grown enough and ready to receive this program. Leaving aside the main principles that are quite the same with all abrahamic religions, Unlike many instructions of older prophets that only lasted for a short period, or if followed today seem unappropriate, Islam's program for life, due to it's belived perfectness is able to be updated. This is why muslims have so many resrtictions!
 
Happy 30th anniversary of Iran's islamic Revoulution!

(since I was afraid there would be no one else except myself to send me greetings for it, I did it myself!;))
 
Happy 30th anniversary of Iran's islamic Revoulution!

(since I was afraid there would be no one else except myself to send me greetings for it, I did it myself!;))

If you recall, the Revolution started with the capture and detention of US citizens as hostages. Also, the periodic barrage of anti-western rhetoric hardly makes this anniversary a happy one for most members of this board.

While the Shah certainly deserves his share of criticism, in the long history of Iran I do not believe the current government will be remembered as being much better.
 
If you ask your self if visiting Iran now-days is even possible, or what the reasons of such visit should be, than the answer is simple. Rich culture, great food, warm people, and the scent of spices filling the air around Iranian open markets, the stories about the great Persian nation reaching back to the glorious kings and their quests, the poetry, turbulent history that brought changes to the contemporary Iranian society by replacing the Shah with the theocratic governance and so much more is there for you to experience firsthand and enrich your life with knowledge that can only keep you open-minded and lead to the next destination you excluded from your list of "places to see". I warmly recommend you to read The Age of Nepotism, the book by Vahid Razavi, Iranian American entrepreneur who gained priceless experiences by traveling the world and trying to find similarities with people. He is explaining the current situation in places like IRAN, USA, Serbia etc. Worth a read. You can also visit the site www.thegeofnepotism.com
 
Rich culture, great food, warm people, and the scent of spices filling the air around Iranian open markets, the stories about the great Persian nation reaching back to the glorious kings and their quests, the poetry, turbulent history that brought changes to the contemporary Iranian society by replacing the Shah with the theocratic governance and so much more is there for you to experience firsthand and enrich your life with knowledge that can only keep you open-minded and lead to the next destination you excluded from your list of "places to see". I warmly recommend you to read The Age of Nepotism, the book by Vahid Razavi, Iranian American entrepreneur who gained priceless experiences by traveling the world and trying to find similarities with people. He is explaining the current situation in places like IRAN, USA, Serbia etc. Worth a read.
 
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Rich culture, great food, warm people, and the scent of spices filling the air around Iranian open markets, the stories about the great Persian nation reaching back to the glorious kings and their quests, the poetry, turbulent history that brought changes to the contemporary Iranian society by replacing the Shah with the theocratic governance and so much more is there for you to experience firsthand and enrich your life with knowledge that can only keep you open-minded and lead to the next destination you excluded from your list of "places to see". I warmly recommend you to read The Age of Nepotism, the book by Vahid Razavi, Iranian American entrepreneur who gained priceless experiences by traveling the world and trying to find similarities with people. He is explaining the current situation in places like IRAN, USA, Serbia etc. Worth a read.

Thank you milena. You're right. I've seen many visitors from overseas that were all astonished by what they were experiencing in Iran. Most of them had leaved their families and friends hesitantly;being told it's a dangerous place,to be careful and all that stuff. Now they couldn't wait to go back to tell them what a wonderful place it was.
 
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