Immigration Bill Advances in Senate

[SW85]

Oh, yeah, it goes without saying border security would have to come before any deportations. You plug up a leak before you start bailing out water. (I did the math -- at the high point of the current wave of deportations, all the immigrants we expelled in the span of a few weeks were replaced in about two or three days).

Deporting 20 million illegals, certainly no easy task, would be greatly helped by cracking down on the scumbag employers of illegals.

I agree insofar as businesses are concerned, but not where ordinary people are (who constitute a fairly large portion of the illegal immigrant hiring business). The alternative to employing an illegal is jumping through a ridiculous amount of hoops, paperwork, and very high taxes (yes, we have a "nanny tax," which applies to gardners, butlers/maids, etc.) that most people don't have the time or money for. If we reformed the way the government handles this (or just abolished the nanny tax altogether) so that normal people can hire a nanny without also having to hire a tax consultant, I'd be all for uniform employer crackdowns. (Businesses, by contrast, actually have the resources to absorb costs related to background checks and paperwork. They have no excuse).

 

[Coyote]

Citizenship should only be granted to the best and the brightest on an individual basis. Let's do what's best for the future of America, not what 3rd worlders think is best for themselves.

Why?


How many famous and successful Americans would not have existed had that been the case in the past? How many immigrants arrived rich and well educated? How many came impoverished and desperate and made a life for themselves through hardwork?

 

[SW85]

Why?


How many famous and successful Americans would not have existed had that been the case in the past? How many immigrants arrived rich and well educated? How many came impoverished and desperate and made a life for themselves through hardwork?

Probably substantially fewer than the number of criminals, paupers, and plague dogs that came here and wound up in gangs, corrupt political machines, prisons, sweatshops, etc.

And I know for a fact that number is lower than the number of immigrants who found conditions in America unbearable and went back home. (About 1 in 3).

 

[Coyote]

Probably substantially fewer than the number of criminals, paupers, and plague dogs that came here and wound up in gangs, corrupt political machines, prisons, sweatshops, etc.

And I know for a fact that number is lower than the number of immigrants who found conditions in America unbearable and went back home. (About 1 in 3).

They all deserve a chance. We shouldn't be elitist -that's not what made America great.

 

[SW85]

They all deserve a chance. We shouldn't be elitist -that's not what made America great.

No one "deserves" a chance here. Residency and citizenship are privileges we administer to others because they are of use to us (or at least that's how it ought to be). We are certainly not obligated to invite every unemployed hand laborer from the Third World here and then lavish them with all the benefits of citizenship. We couldn't afford to do such even if we wanted to (and virtually no one outside Capitol Hill does). And it's not elitist to say as much.

(And I'm interested in hearing how you think elitism isn't what made this country great. We are as rich, powerful, and free as we are because our forefathers undertook deliberate efforts to conquer the desirable parts of this continent from natives, whom they regarded as vastly inferior people on the rare occasion they acknowledged them as people at all. Hell, take a look at the original, unamended constitution and you'll see the Founders drafted a document that was not particularly democratic). I'll bet most instances of egalitarianism you'd cite are more likely just elitists acting out of a sense of noblesse oblige).

 

[Coyote]

We opened up our country to immigration many times - and, at least turn of the century, there were no requirements besides health and a willingness to work.

 

[SW85]

We opened up our country to immigration many times - and, at least turn of the century, there were no requirements besides health and a willingness to work.

At the turn of the century we still had a sparsely-populated frontier and a fledgling industrial economy that was starved for labor; we didn't "open up our country" to them because we wanted to act like Santa Claus, we did it because it was in our interest to do so. And at any rate, what's your argument here? That we had a policy in the past and so we're obligated to keep it forever and ever?

We also had no safety net for immigrants who failed; if they didn't learn English, assimilate completely, and work their bums off, they failed. And most of them failed anyway, which is why a third of them went back home and most of the rest lived in utter, abject squalor. They got no welfare, no social security, no loudmouthed ethnic lobbyists -- nothing. Quit revising our history with immigration; it was miserable for almost everyone in the country except the fatcats, much like today.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

Which century are you guys talking about? If it's 1800s into the 1900s, then you're forgetting about the Chinese Exclusion Act/Gentleman's Agreement.

 

[Coyote]

Which century are you guys talking about? If it's 1800s into the 1900s, then you're forgetting about the Chinese Exclusion Act/Gentleman's Agreement.

I'm not and never have said there weren't anti-immigrant sentiments and legislation. Indeed the more things change, the more they stay the same. What's being said about immigrants today is the same as was said against the Irish, the Chinese, the East European Jews. Yet despite that, they came here and many managed to make a success.

I think they deserve the opportunity. I wouldn't be here if that oppertunity had not existed for my great grandparents and they were dirt poor when they arrived.

 

[Coyote]

Quit revising our history with immigration; it was miserable for almost everyone in the country except the fatcats, much like today.

Where have I revised it?

 

[USMC the Almighty]

I think they deserve the opportunity. I wouldn't be here if that oppertunity had not existed for my great grandparents and they were dirt poor when they arrived.

I think the law-abiding folks who have been waiting for years for the chance to legally immigrate to the U.S. deserve the opportunity this country has to offer more than those who hop across a fence in defiance of this country's laws.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

I'm not and never have said there weren't anti-immigrant sentiments and legislation.

You said:

at least turn of the century, there were no requirements besides health and a willingness to work.

One requirement was that you weren't Chinese...

 

[Coyote]

You said:



One requirement was that you weren't Chinese...

Ahhh...point taken

 

[SW85]

Which century are you guys talking about? If it's 1800s into the 1900s, then you're forgetting about the Chinese Exclusion Act/Gentleman's Agreement.

Various groups were excluded at various points in history; poor people were excluded for some time until the federal government claimed exclusive jurisdiction over immigration (it was feared that Europe was dumping their rabble-rousing proles here so that they wouldn't have to deal with them). Not to mention there was a big four-decade gap between the 1920s and 1960s where virtually no immigration was permitted at all.

I think they deserve the opportunity. I wouldn't be here if that oppertunity had not existed for my great grandparents and they were dirt poor when they arrived.

So? I am the descendents of immigrants as well. (My father's parents came here during the abovementioned time when it was virtually impossible to immigrate here legally). I don't delude myself into thinking this country wouldn't still be great without me.

Where have I revised it?

Where haven't you?

 

[Coyote]

Various groups were excluded at various points in history; poor people were excluded for some time until the federal government claimed exclusive jurisdiction over immigration (it was feared that Europe was dumping their rabble-rousing proles here so that they wouldn't have to deal with them). Not to mention there was a big four-decade gap between the 1920s and 1960s where virtually no immigration was permitted at all.



So? I am the descendents of immigrants as well. (My father's parents came here during the abovementioned time when it was virtually impossible to immigrate here legally). I don't delude myself into thinking this country wouldn't still be great without me.



Where haven't you?

I am looking back at my statements. I have never claimed that there were never issues with immigration or that all were welcomed with open arms. Indeed the exact same verbage used to day against Mexicans was used against other groups at other times. However - despite the attempts at restrictions, etc - huge numbers of poor and relatively undeducated people came into the country and many made a life for themselves that was better then where they came from. In some small part, they made America what it is.

So point out please where I am rewriting history?